Kitz Forum

Computers & Hardware => Apple Related => Topic started by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 03:51:26 PM

Title: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 03:51:26 PM
After 8yrs of using my current desktop PC, we've (The wife and I) decided to purchase a newer, more modern PC.

During my day-to-day job, I see literally hundreds of different PC's, but the one that really caught my eye was the i-Mac. My wife likes the look of them and the fact that they are virtually 'wire-free', so the battle is almost won.  ;) :D

What I hoping to obtain from you guys in the know, is, are there any pitfalls to the i-Mac that I should know about ?? Also, where would be the best place to purchase one from ?? IE- Are there any kind of trade-price websites I could visit, etc ??? We would only want a brand new one.

Thanks in advance, for any and all help.  :)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 08, 2012, 04:25:56 PM
It runs OS X rather than Windows so you will have to get used to a whole new operating system and it is quite different, although one gets used to it quickly.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 04:27:57 PM
I take your point about another OS, but what is the big difference between what I have now (Vista) and OS X ??? You'll have to forgive my naievity, but I'm not clued-up at all when it comes down to hardware/devices etc.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 08, 2012, 04:33:41 PM
I take your point about another OS, but what is the big difference between what I have now (Vista) and OS X ???

Quite a bit :). It looks very different, for example you don't have icons on the desktop, you have them in a folder, there is no start menu, and the applications are different to a PC so they will not run on a Mac.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 04:35:08 PM
I take your point about another OS, but what is the big difference between what I have now (Vista) and OS X ???

Quite a bit :). It looks very different, for example you don't have icons on the desktop, you have them in a folder, there is no start menu, and the applications are different to a PC so they will not run on a Mac.

OMG, what am I talking myself into here ???  :'(
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 08, 2012, 04:41:32 PM
Below are two screenshots showing the differences in looks between Vista and OS X (10.7 Lion - the latest version):

Vista

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fakhilash.mobie.in%2Fimages%2Fvista_desktop.jpg&hash=cb71a02ab51881e596596fa35cf4e4d9815e0fdf)
OS X

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.anandtech.com%2Fdoci%2F4485%2FLion%2520desktop.png&hash=e47dcdb243db25f73d9456f0fc34fc5f21d204aa)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 08, 2012, 04:42:32 PM
OMG, what am I talking myself into here ???  :'(

It really isn't difficult to get used to, I switched from a PC to a Mac and within 2 weeks I knew exactly how to use it. It is very self-explanatory, it just looks different.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Blackeagle on July 08, 2012, 04:46:25 PM
Apple make some really good stuff, but I tend to think people see their products as 'status symbols' rather than see them for what they really are.  Not that OSX isn't a good operating system, because it is.  My only issue with apple gear is that you have to do everything apple's way, or you simply don't do it.  Even upgrading the memory or changing the HD on an apple system isn't the straightforward job it is with Windows or Linux.

Apple has a lot of things going for it, such as iTunes, iCloud etc, but I'm not convinced myself that these benefits outweigh the 'locked into apple' mentality that they come with.  There's also the hefty price tag that comes with Apple gear.  You could probably get similar hardware running Win 7 for half the price and a comparable Linux machine for even less.

Not my money & not my choice but if it were me, if I were going to spend the money that an iMac costs, I'd be spending it on a decent Win 7 system, if only for the fact that aftermarket software is cheaper also.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 08, 2012, 04:47:21 PM
Can't speak for the iMac, but I've been using a mac mini for a few years.  Have you considered one?  They're neat little boxes, and leave you the option to upgrade to a better monitor as prices drop, or even just replace it if the monitor stops working.

Mostly the Mac has been a hit with me.  It was purchashed as a means to an end (app development) but, whilst there is both a windows PC and MAC at arm's length, the MAC has become my workhorse of choice for day to day desktop duties, web surfing, email, etc.

Likes...

apple hardware is downright gorgeous.
OS/x is generally slicker than windows, boots faster, less buggy, 'just works'.

Dislikes...

Not always intuitive.  There's no eject button on the optical drive for example, and it can be hard work finding the soft eject buttons.  More than once I've found myself searching the net just to get a duff CD out.  Later Mac Minis don't have an optical drive at all, which I suppose solves the problem, though I'm not sure it's my preferred solution.

Third party drivers, even though they support OS/X, are often a bit half-hearted.  My Canon printer, for example, has auto duplex on windows, but not on Mac.

Hardware not always user-upgradeable.  When the mac mini needed more memory I had to choose between paying the best part of £200 for Apple's service people to supply and install it, or to break the rules, prise it open with a walpaper scraper and do it myself for about £20 off amazon.

Even more than Windows, you may find yourself getting caught up in the perpetual upgrade cycle.  In order to install some app you want, you might have to purchase a new version of OS/X, and once in a while a new OS/X might mean a new Mac.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 08, 2012, 04:50:09 PM
Even more than Windows, you may find youreslf getting caught up in perpetual upgrade cycle.  In order to imstall some app you want, you might have to purchase a new version of OS/X, and once in a while a new OS/X might mean a new Mac.

The average lifecycle for a Mac is about 3-5 years (e.g. it will still run the latest version) and OS X upgrades are getting cheaper, Mountain Lion (the new version coming out in a few weeks) will only cost about £15.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 04:53:36 PM
Wow, some great comments guys. I found myself going one way, then the other for a moment there. Good info. Please keep 'em coming if you think of anything else.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: asbokid on July 08, 2012, 04:54:28 PM
Spec for today's top of the range i-Mac (not that bleeding edge): [1]

Quote
3.4GHz quad core Intel Core i7-2600
16GB 1333MHz DDR3 SDRAM
2TB Serial ATA Drive
256GB Solid State Drive
AMD Radeon HD 6970M 2GB GDDR5
27 inch TFT @ 2560 × 1440
Apple Magic Mouse + Magic Trackpad
Apple Wireless Keyboard (British)
Microsoft Office for Mac Home/Business 2011
OS X Lion

Price... <drum roll!>  £2,992.96  incl. VAT and  Free Delivery (!)

That specification could probably be built for £1100.  The Apple™ premium is close to £2000.  Ouch!

These days, Macs are just x86-based machines. Macs used to be based on the elegant Motorola 68k architecture. Now Macs are powered by bog-standard Intels same as all the PCs running BillyGatesWare.  :o   However that means that OS X will install on most much equipment sold for use with Microsoft Windows.  Do-it-yourself Macs are dubbed the Hackintosh. [2]

To DIY a Hackintosh of that spec, the screen would be the costliest component to buy separately. For example, a 27-inch TFT @ 2560 x 1440 from Dell (U2711) costs around £500.

The i7-2600 CPU in the iMac is high-end, but plenty of better CPUs are available. [3]

And excepting Apple's proprietary mouse and keyboard,  the rest of the components are off-the-shelf.

cheers, a


[1] http://support.apple.com/kb/SP623
[2] http://www.hackintosh.com/
[2] http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: GigabitEthernet on July 08, 2012, 04:58:47 PM
But: installing OS X on any non-Apple labelled computer is against Apple's EULA, so technically it is "illegal" (well at least according to Apple). Plus, there will be no support from Apple and you won't be able to do software updates because they can break how the OS X is installed, you will have to wait until the "community" say it is okay.

Of course it is your choice, but I would highly recommend against it. Sorry asbokid.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: asbokid on July 08, 2012, 05:31:53 PM
But: installing OS X on any non-Apple labelled computer is against Apple's EULA, so technically it is "illegal" (well at least according to Apple).

We're in Blighty - Land of the Free! So nothing to worry about! No DMCA, etc.  Where there's no commercial gain, EULAs are a matter of civil law (tort) not criminal law (illegal).

To prove a tort, Apple would have to demonstrate to a court that a valid and enforceable contract existed between Apple and the Hackintosher and that a "demonstrable loss" had occurred. And then Apple would have to quantify its losses..

EULAs from the likes of Apple and Microsoft are full of terms which a court would never enforce.. [1]  Some examples.

"Do not use this product with other vendor's products",
"Do not criticize this product publicly",
"By agreeing to this contract, you also agree to every change in future versions of it",
"You are not entitled to any damages, including but not limited to consequential damages if the Software does not meet Our Limited Warranty".. etc etc.

EULAs often contain terms like those above, which smell distinctly unlawful -  viz the 1999 Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations! [2]

Apple lawyers can go and troll  ::)

Quote
Plus, there will be no support from Apple and you won't be able to do software updates because they can break how the OS X is installed, you will have to wait until the "community" say it is okay.  Of course it is your choice, but I would highly recommend against it. Sorry asbokid.

For the immediate £2000 saving (probably more) I would happily forego the special rate helpline for "Apple Support" (after 3 months, a paid subscription is required  :o)

cheers, a

[1] https://www.eff.org/wp/dangerous-terms-users-guide-eulas
[2] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2083/contents/made
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 08, 2012, 05:56:17 PM
Wow, some great comments guys. I found myself going one way, then the other for a moment there. Good info. Please keep 'em coming if you think of anything else.

If/when you ever get FTTC installed, you need Windows or at a pinch Linux to run the Graphing Scripts  :lol: :P
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 06:02:50 PM
 :lol: :lol: :lol: Of course BE, how could I forget ?? ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: asbokid on July 08, 2012, 06:18:15 PM
Maybe install OS X as a guest operating system in VirtualBox on your existing PC  to see if you like it?!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fxz7jVI9kQ[/youtube]

http://www.virtualbox.org/

cheers, a

EDIT:

http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 06:48:32 PM
Crikey asbo !! Where did you pull that from ??  ;D

I'll be honest, I'm not confident enough to attempt installing a new OS, even via a step-by-step guide. Having seen other EU's i-Macs, I think I'll be taking the leap pretty soon though. I'll just have to adapt to the new OS as I go.
I really appreciate the help and comments though. I was hoping to get feedback along these lines, even more-so what 7LM has given, a kinda 'likes' and 'dislikes (Pro's and cons).

All I need now is for someone to say they know a man who knocks them out for a monkey, and all's well !!!  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers all.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 08, 2012, 06:52:49 PM
Quote
Not that OSX isn't a good operating system, because it is.  My only issue with apple gear is that you have to do everything apple's way, or you simply don't do it.  Even upgrading the memory or changing the HD on an apple system isn't the straightforward job it is with Windows or Linux.

Thats one of my bug-bears too..  I'd love an i-Mac, and there certainly is some sort of status about owning one..  but as already pointed out the price seems so much more when you compare to what you could get from a system running another O/S.   I also wish Apple didnt make it so costly to upgrade things that are simple and cheap on a PC.. nor were they so propreitory about what you can and cant do.

Take my ipad for example..  yeah I love it and yep it is a status symbol to have an i-whatever.  But when it comes to purchasing again/replacing, I doubt it would be apple, because (1) it annoys the hell out of me that I cant put on it what I want (ie Flash), and (2) to add parts that would cost peanuts on another system (such as memory) then you no can do and instead have to purchase a new and more up to date model.

Apple is considered good if you are say into graphics/web design, or music editing,  but IMHO for the average user a PC would perhaps be best. I know everyone likes to slate Windows, but when it comes to choice of software or even repairs or support then without doubt PC does have the edge.  You have to consider that if going apple then certain software wont be available (there will be alternatives), but it means the transfer of existing data/programmes/apps is going to be harder.

As regards to getting them cheaper anywhere, not really Apple fixes its prices -  and retailer prices dont tend to be much cheaper (if at all) than buying from Apple direct.   You can sometimes pick up cheaper if you are prepared to go for a model that is just about to be replaced by a newer and greater model.



Ive seen OSX installed within virtual boxes, but IMHO its just a geeky thing to play with if you want to try out some high end specific software.
If you are wanting a change of O/s you could always go for linux.  :D


Granted there was no monitor involved in mine....  but I can tell you that without doubt my new system is higher spec, at less than half the cost, of the imac on sale at £1649.  Even by the time you add in a nice monitor you could still make some serious savings.

But if you want it all to work out of the box, if you want it to look smart, and you want to be geeky then by all means go Apple because that is what they are good at. :)

Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 07:03:08 PM
Ha ha ......... thanks for the candid reply, Kitz.

I can assure you, I'm not the type of man who actively seeks out 'status symbols'. I really do just like the look of the thing.

I seem to spend quite a lot of time on my PC (rightly or wrongly), and as such, can justify to myself spending the kind of cash being asked. I wont be photo-editing, or whatsits with music, just basically doing what I'm doing now. The consensus thus far indicates it's a quality bit of kit, although quite pricey. I dont mind paying through the nose for quality.  ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 08, 2012, 07:13:22 PM
I well aware I saved quite a bit of money on mine, by spending ages faffing about trying to decide on the parts and having to spend time trying to get compatible hardware, and Im aware that not everyone wants to do that...   but as an example of an out of the box PC solution..  try looking at something like this
http://www.medion.com/gb/electronics/prod/MEDION%C2%AE+AKOYA%C2%AE+P5327+E+%28MD8198%29/310015998?category=erazer_35&recId=d57837ae-8971-4475-b558-4283edb47c7e

Which has better, faster, processor and more disk space, than the imac costing £1650.  Add on a 27" monitor at £200 and you'll see what we mean about how much cheaper a PC is.


>>> The consensus thus far indicates it's a quality bit of kit, although quite pricey. I dont mind paying through the nose for quality.

I do get your point, and by all means if thats what you want... (and by gawd they do look smart)..  then go for it, and become an apple-man :D


========


oops scrap that link..  I was trying to get a shorter version of the original link and its not got the same processor as the 1st one I looked at..  its an i-7 but only 2600..  if you have a look around there is one somewhere with the better processor.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 07:39:07 PM
Why do I get the feeling you wont talk to me again, if I do purchase an i-Mac, Kitz !!  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: HPsauce on July 08, 2012, 08:33:50 PM
Why do I get the feeling you wont talk to me again
Well, being honest, a big part of the problem is that, like oil and water, Mac's and PC's and more especially Mac and PC supporters, just don't mix.
So, in reality the chances of you getting an unbiased view, especially from people who don't know you or your needs and skills well, is minimal.

Obviously there are a few exceptions, but you might as well be sitting astride the "wall" the Israelis built in the West Bank and ask the people nearby for an unbiased opinion.  :angel:
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 08, 2012, 08:43:32 PM
Ha ha ...... point taken. Looks like a trip down the M6 to Coventry, for me then.  ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 08, 2012, 09:27:54 PM
Why do I get the feeling you wont talk to me again, if I do purchase an i-Mac, Kitz !!  :lol: :lol:

Haha not at all..  As I said in my first post, I'd love one..  They do look good... I suppose with me budget is always going to sway things, and for me personally I couldn't justify the additional cost over a pc

If I do stop speaking to you it will only be cause I've gone green with envy.   :lol:


Pasts I am happy with my new pc though....  Just need about another six months to install everything I need on it  :D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sheddyian on July 08, 2012, 09:35:26 PM

Is now the wrong time to chip in and say that the computer I'm currently using I found next to a bin in the street. Honestly!

OK, it needed fixing, and I've bought a faster CPU and memory (from ebay) but it's still running  :D

Ian
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: asbokid on July 08, 2012, 10:41:24 PM
A man after my own heart!  Are you the same with cars?  Amazing what gems are being scrapped these days. And all because of some trivial problem - a billowing head gasket, exploded gearbox, Cat. C front-end write-off, faulty ABS or airbags, or all of the above?  Hard to resist such a bargain?!

There's a well-documented ebay phenomenon concerning SPARES OR REPAIR.  More of a mental disorder, perhaps, that afflicts only men.

List anything on ebay as FAULTY and suddenly it attracts dozens of male bidders, all keen to prove their expertise at fixing the unfixable. And the more broken it is, the more bids it gets!  Must be a primitive Alpha Male Ego thing!

cheers, a
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 08, 2012, 11:29:54 PM
List anything on ebay as FAULTY and suddenly it attracts dozens of male bidders, all keen to prove their expertise at fixing the unfixable. And the more broken it is, the more bids it gets!  Must be a primitive Alpha Male Ego thing!

cheers, a

Yes, I've witnessed that!

A few years ago I bid a few quid on what seemed to be a bricked Netgear media player (described as spares or repairs)  as I believed I knew how to unbrick it.  ;)

Come the last few minutes of auction I logged on at work and watched anxiously, ready to place the killer last-minute bid.  But amazingly, a spiral of bids in the last couple of minutes left my bids cold, and quickly went to within a whisker of the price you could buy the thing for, brand new, from Amazon.  :lol:
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 09, 2012, 08:18:16 PM
I'm hooked ........ it can do anything can an i-Mac. I love 'em. Now where's mi' cheque book.  :)

http://www.apple.com/uk/why-mac/
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 10, 2012, 12:35:56 AM
lmao...  go fer it BS.

Apple are very good at making things look sexi..  but they are also very good at marketing their products to make them look uber-sexi.

I think thats what hooked me in on both the ATV and the ipad.  :blush:
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: asbokid on July 10, 2012, 12:40:13 AM
lmao...  go fer it BS.

Apple are very good at making things look sexi..  but they are also very good at marketing their products to make them look uber-sexi.

I think thats what hooked me in on both the ATV and the ipad.  :blush:

And me too on Blackberrys  :-[

Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 10, 2012, 06:32:41 PM
lmao...  go fer it BS.

Apple are very good at making things look sexi..  but they are also very good at marketing their products to make them look uber-sexi.

I think thats what hooked me in on both the ATV and the ipad.  :blush:

I'm a marketing mans dream, Kitz. I'm sure if you look in your Thesaurus under 'Gullible fool', it will have 'Black sheep' as the first entry. Hey-ho, it's only cash and I've worked hard all my life. Come to Daddy i-Mac ..... come to Daddy.  ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sheddyian on July 10, 2012, 09:38:57 PM
A man after my own heart!  Are you the same with cars?

Not so good with cars, at least, not attempted it yet!

Quote
There's a well-documented ebay phenomenon concerning SPARES OR REPAIR.  More of a mental disorder, perhaps, that afflicts only men.

List anything on ebay as FAULTY and suddenly it attracts dozens of male bidders, all keen to prove their expertise at fixing the unfixable. And the more broken it is, the more bids it gets!  Must be a primitive Alpha Male Ego thing!

I have boxes full of junk that I ought to get rid of, perhaps I will put them up on ebay as spares/repair and see what happens.  Though I always hate to get rid of something in case it comes in handy next week.

Ian
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: asbokid on July 11, 2012, 01:35:44 AM
A man after my own heart!  Are you the same with cars?

Not so good with cars, at least, not attempted it yet!

Don't rule it out! And the more complex the job, the more worthless the car, and the more pointless the task,  the more appealing it all becomes   ::) 

Quote
I have boxes full of junk that I ought to get rid of, perhaps I will put them up on ebay as spares/repair and see what happens.  Though I always hate to get rid of something in case it comes in handy next week.

Definitely.  My logic too. Which is why, for many years, I have carefully stored a box full of spare parts (believed to be) for a Messerschmitt KR200 bubble car  - a vehicle which I have never owned, and which I sincerely hope never to own  :D

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COHo_yWLAbQ[/youtube]

cheers, a
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 15, 2012, 10:28:42 PM
Well, the baby is up and running. Gotta say, it's the easiest thing on planet Earth to set up. Only one wire to connect, which is the power lead. A quick 5 minute walk-through on initialisation, and hey presto ..... one is ready to go.

Looks sleek and sexy, just need to get to grips with the OS. Have managed to upload some pictures and i-Photo is out of this world !!! I've regressed back to being a young lad on Xmas morning. ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 16, 2012, 06:32:42 PM
Nice one.... have fun with your new toy :)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 06:44:49 PM
ha ha, thanks Kitz. Fun is slowly turning to frustration, trying to navigate this OS.  :-X

I'm trying to resize some photo's from 2Meg each in size, to between 300-600Kbps, thus far I've managed to lose a couple of photo's and my language is befitting of a Premiership footballer !!

Did I say I love a challenge ?? ..... I lied, I might pay for asbo to fly over to mine to 'sort it'. ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 07:28:48 PM
test
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 07:29:56 PM
Sorry guys, just testing stuff out. Hope thats ok Kitz/Eric ??
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 07:47:24 PM
test 2
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 07:50:56 PM
test3
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 07:54:31 PM
4
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 07:55:26 PM
Hmmmm ?? losing clarity ???
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 16, 2012, 08:26:09 PM
Looks very smart :)

>> Hmmmm ?? losing clarity

Yes it will do :(.  jpg uses lossy compression so each time you re-save a jpg image then you will loose some quality.   If you are editing jpgs (or photos) you are always best saving a copy of the image and working on the copy, thus retaining best quality on the original.

Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 08:43:37 PM
Thanks, Kitz. Its all new to me is this, so just finding my feet.  :)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 16, 2012, 09:06:34 PM
nps, always lots of things to learn with PCs (and Macs).

What I normally do is if I pull images from my camera then want to edit one for some reason or other I normally save a copy which is the one that I then play with.

For example if the image from your camera was 100_0283.jpg, then save a copy of it as 100_0283a.jpg or 100_0283_copy.jpg, then you always know which is the original and which is the one that youve resized etc.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 16, 2012, 09:18:22 PM
nps, always lots of things to learn with PCs (and Macs).

What I normally do is if I pull images from my camera then want to edit one for some reason or other I normally save a copy which is the one that I then play with.

For example if the image from your camera was 100_0283.jpg, then save a copy of it as 100_0283a.jpg or 100_0283_copy.jpg, then you always know which is the original and which is the one that youve resized etc.

Thanks again, and I can assure you I'm learning the hard way ....... I've lost/deleted one photo already !! :-[

Obviously, I'm practising with a few I took yesterday, so no big deal. What I could do with is an 'Idiots guide to using OS X Mac Lion'. Or, maybe a 'Kitz' tucked away in the spare room ???  :) ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 16, 2012, 10:17:32 PM
I know it's an extravagance but, considering the price of sd cards, and how long they take me to fill, I never re-use them, just buy a new one when needed about every 18 months.

That way, should it transpire that I accidentally trashed a photo, or that my stack of back up DVDs suddenly are unreadable, I can always fall back on the last resort of just copying the card again. :)

Have fun with the Mac BS.  And welcome to the cult. >:D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 17, 2012, 07:33:14 AM
Ha ha 7LM ...... thank you for the warm welcome to the cult. I've got to slaughter my first goat later today, after which Apple said they'd show me the 'back door' to obtaining Microsoft Office for the Mac.  ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: silversurfer44 on July 17, 2012, 07:53:46 AM
There's always 'Libre Open Office' which does just about everything Microsoft office does, it's compatible with Microsoft office and it's free.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 17, 2012, 02:19:00 PM
Thanks SS, I wasn't aware of that site. Alas, I was only jesting in my comments above, obviously about the goat, but also about the MS Office suite too.

Due to the fact my wife is doing a Masters Degree, she needs the MS version to do whatever it is she does. We actually bought it when we got the i-Mac and i-Pad, and was a critical leverage point with my missus's bartering technique. I'm not kidding, she is the best in the business at cutting a deal. Especially as Apple do not do discounts on their products. They do 'Educational discounts', but that's it. We (or rather she) did alright though.

This was the sales rep as we were leaving =>  :no: :'( :no:
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: silversurfer44 on July 17, 2012, 02:35:39 PM
I may be mistaken but I think Microsoft office was designed around Star Office which has had a couple of name changes now and ended up with Libre Office.
It has a big following in the corporate world as there is payed for versions as well as the Free Licensed. It is open source so is left alone by hackers and such.
Ah well needs must eh!.

I would have expected the sales rep being more like this  :cry2:
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 17, 2012, 09:30:35 PM
Either way, tis a good tip if others are looking in on this thread, SS.

I've just spent about 4hrs cleaning the old PC up, uninstalling, exporting piccies, saving docs etc etc ........ I can tell you now, I shan't miss the whirring fan noise one little bit. Even though it's not faulty, the noise level is very noticeable compared to my new best-friend ...... the silent i-Mac. ;) ;D

If anybody's interested, I'll let you look at her for 30 seconds for just a quid. If you want to run your fingers gently around the edge of the screen, it'll be a fiver. Form an orderly queue please.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 18, 2012, 12:33:31 AM
I can tell you now, I shan't miss the whirring fan noise one little bit. Even though it's not faulty, the noise level is very noticeable compared to my new best-friend ...... the silent i-Mac. ;) ;D

Indeed, the cool ( silent) running of my Mac Mini is perhaps its greatest asset.  I suspect it comes from Apples tendency to design the whole box as a system with carefully considered airflow (patented I believe), rather than follow the herd's formula of a generic ITX motherboard, in a generic cabinet, with copious vents and crossed fingers that it'll all stay cool, backed up by massive fans just in case.

I'm not a fully fledged cult member as I reserve the right to vent my cynicism when I feel the urge, but I do credit Apple with getting the hardware right, to the extent you wonder what the generic PC makers have been doing this past 20 years.  And it's so darned gorgeous looking too :)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 18, 2012, 07:44:21 AM
I'm no techy at all, when it comes to PC's, 7LM. But I fully understand your point regarding the 'cooling' of other systems. Why haven't the others engineered around this issue ?? If Apple can, then I'm sure MS have the funds to reciprocate ??

Or, is it this aspect of the Mac models that makes it that much more expensive than their cheaper cousins ??

My thoughts (still as an excited schoolboy), is that I love my Mac. I was messing about with the photo's I've accrued over the years and the clarity/sharpness of them is immense. The whole experience is sharper, whatever you access !! I've just ordered the 'Idiotd guide to LION OS X',to ensure I make the most out of it, as navigating is completely different to Windows. But, as somebody who uses a desktop PC every day, and someone who has worked hard all my life, I can justify this small extravagance and love every inch of it. Roll on early evening when I can get back to it. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: roseway on July 18, 2012, 08:01:48 AM
The point about the PC of course is that it's an open design - it isn't owned by a single company like the Mac is. It's built from a kit of standardised parts with many competing suppliers, so the price is low but there's no unified overall design. You can buy more expensive PCs in attractive boxes, but not many people are prepared to pay a lot extra for something which is no better technically but just looks pretty.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 18, 2012, 08:51:16 AM
The point about the PC of course is that it's an open design - it isn't owned by a single company like the Mac is. It's built from a kit of standardised parts with many competing suppliers, so the price is low but there's no unified overall design. You can buy more expensive PCs in attractive boxes, but not many people are prepared to pay a lot extra for something which is no better technically but just looks pretty.

Agreed.  And when it comes to the Mac Mini of course there's nothing to stop other manufacturers from making smaller systems based on (say) mini-itx form factor.  And a few do, often calling them 'net top' computers.  But I'm not sure how many average people are even aware of such systems?   Also they tend to be low-end, and usually target a specific function, such as a home-theatre, rather than as a generic desktop.

Come what may though, when it does come to unusual packaging, I'm not aware of anybody that makes half as good a job of it as Apple.   :)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 18, 2012, 10:21:59 AM
Im not anti-Apple (as you know I own a few apple products) and whilst I agree they look smart and apple do great designs I think the major thing for me when it comes to Apple Desktops is the price, how hard it is to upgrade, and what you get for your £ you can get much higher spec in PCs.  My own personal bug-bear with anything apple is how difficult it is to upgrade without it costing an arm and a leg..  thats if you can.. and dont have to buy a whole new machine.  Personally I'd feel too restricted, and to be happy Id also need a PC.

You cant really compare M$ to Apple because M$ are primarily software designers and dont build complete systems. 
In fact M$ in some ways have it tougher because they are seen as the major O/S supplier - they have the monopoly and therefore the regulators could be seen to come down harder on them than they do the others in some areas - Just like how BT cant get away with some of the stuff that the smaller operators can.  Take for example bundling a web-browser or email client into their operating system..  yet Apple and even the linux distros can and do.  Nor can they charge for service pack upgrades or else there would be a huge outcry.  Think of the upgrades XP has gone through over the past >10yrs and its all free.

Design is down to the likes of Dell/Medion/whoever, and there are some pretty smart all-in-ones appearing on the market at a fraction of the cost of Apple, often with higher spec internals.

Dont get me wrong either by thinking Im an out and out MS fan.. because M$ do have their faults too that Im well aware of.   I had my eyes open wide many years ago when I had to write a thesis comparing 3 different Operating Systems, and another module where we had to design a complete new network for a small graphics design company, right down to the machines and software. Apple arent totally whiter than white either.

At the end of the day, its horses for courses and both systems come into their own in different respects.
Apple do some fantastic stuff... its sexi as hell.. but it is overpriced for what you get.
There will always be debates between different operating systems and PCs -v- Macs.   I see it as choice and its healthy that there are alternatives. 

However, you are quite right, when you work hard for your money and you see something that you like and it appeals to you..  then I really dont have any problem in the slightest with someone getting what they want.   Go for it..  and enjoy..  thats what computing is supposed to be all about :)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 18, 2012, 04:15:20 PM
Absolutely spot-on with your final sentence, Kitz. If it looks and feels right, one will be more likely to continue using it, than if it is clunky, slow, always screen-freezing etc etc .....

As I say, I'm not geeky enough to compare OS's at many levels, but I can say that for what I need it for, it is looking pretty good atm.  :)

From post above ..... 'If anybody's interested, I'll let you look at her for 30 seconds for just a quid. If you want to run your fingers gently around the edge of the screen, it'll be a fiver. Form an orderly queue please'.

I take it from your comments, I can put you down for a fiver, Kitz ?? ;) ;D ;)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on July 18, 2012, 06:14:03 PM

From post above ..... 'If anybody's interested, I'll let you look at her for 30 seconds for just a quid. If you want to run your fingers gently around the edge of the screen, it'll be a fiver. Form an orderly queue please'.


Get Windows 7 on it & I'd pay a tenner :P
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 18, 2012, 06:28:46 PM
 :lol: :lol: :lol: ....... if you leave yer graphing scripts at home, it's a done deal BE.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sheddyian on July 18, 2012, 09:22:36 PM
PC noise is down to case design.  And that's down to cost, really.

I'm typing this on one of my "found" PCs, dual core Athlon XP 64 running Windows XP.  It's a fancy looking unbranded case, probably designed for a small business server.  Quite a lot of fans in it, and filters too to stop dirt getting sucked in.

BIOS settings have options to adjust speed of fans based on measured temperatures.

I've tweaked this as optimally as I can, as a result, it's lovely and quiet as I power it up, but the fans gradually get faster  as it warms up.  It has an almost revving-engine effect, as when you're hammering it hard (video conversion, driving around in Google Street view), the fans speed up noisily as the processor gets worked hard.  All good fun  ;D

That said, I've also got an HP PC here that is incredibly quiet.  Not silent, but very quiet.  It has fans, again temp controlled, but the case design is such that efficient airflow is achieved quietly.

A bit of googling will find you "silent" power supplies, CPU coolers etc for PCs, if you care to pay the premium.

Ian

Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 18, 2012, 10:33:55 PM
I agree that the are indeed 'silent' PSUs and fans for sale.  But whilst those I have tried (for my ION mythtv frontends) are impressive compared to standard cheapo fans, and can be made even quieter by using BIOS fan control, or even just a manual fan speed control, when you sit in the lounge with no other noise and listen carefully, they are distinctly not truly silent.

My Mac Mini in contrast is completely silent.  The only way to tell if it is powered up is to look at the stanby light.   I often find myself touching the case to make sure the cooling s actually operational and it is always absolutely stone cold, really quite miraculous.  I assumed it was passive cooling to begin with, but apparently not.  There is an interesting article here that describes (in Apple patent papers) how some of it is achieved.  This is for the modern Mac Mini, mine's an earlier one, but interesting all the same.

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/12/apple-reveals-the-mac-mini-from-design-to-removable-hard-drive.html

But I must admit  I do agree with the other criticisms of Apple, such as price and upgradeability.  And I must confess, despite having the Mac and Linux too boxes too close at hand, I have a windows PC too that I could never manage without.   :)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 18, 2012, 10:47:38 PM
PC noise is down to case design.  And that's down to cost, really.

I'm typing this on one of my "found" PCs, dual core Athlon XP 64 running Windows XP.  It's a fancy looking unbranded case, probably designed for a small business server.  Quite a lot of fans in it, and filters too to stop dirt getting sucked in.

BIOS settings have options to adjust speed of fans based on measured temperatures.

I've tweaked this as optimally as I can, as a result, it's lovely and quiet as I power it up, but the fans gradually get faster  as it warms up.  It has an almost revving-engine effect, as when you're hammering it hard (video conversion, driving around in Google Street view), the fans speed up noisily as the processor gets worked hard.  All good fun  ;D

That said, I've also got an HP PC here that is incredibly quiet.  Not silent, but very quiet.  It has fans, again temp controlled, but the case design is such that efficient airflow is achieved quietly.

A bit of googling will find you "silent" power supplies, CPU coolers etc for PCs, if you care to pay the premium.

Ian

I too opted for a quiet system, it was one of my requirements hence the CoolerMaster case & PSU, addin quiet fans and an artic cooler for the CPU.  My system didn't cost the earth.   However these are the sort of things that the likes of Dell don't seem to consider.   

Saying that my last PC was a median, and to give them their due they did try set up a half decent quiet system, but I also at some point added in some Zalmans for cooling purposes, which made it quiet even when going at full pelt.

For the extra it cost me to get a quiet, cool system, I'm pretty sure some of the pc manufacturers could pump out something that would only add about an extra £30 to the build cost if they did it in bulk.  Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a strong selling point on PCs.

It must be entirely possible though because look at laptops and how compact they are..  One costing about half the price of an entry spec iMac.  I really am surprised that there isnt more of a market for it and there must be a missing gap there.

...and no BS I'm not having a pop at anyone for buying iMacs..  I strongly believe in choice...  After all who am I to judge because someone had a pop at me ealier for getting a pedigree kitten from a breeder, saying I sould have got a rescue cat, making out that breeders were evil people only in it for the money.   How damn ironic if they only knew the truth but I cba to waste energy on some embicile and argue the toss.

If someone wants to buy a lada, ford or BMW then thats up to them. :)


Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: asbokid on July 20, 2012, 01:11:20 AM
Here is la creme de la creme of fanless CPU coolers - the Nofan CR-95C IcePipe Cooler.   At £70+VAT it costs about, erm, seventy times more than I paid for the last CPU (99p)  :o

Not really justifiable - a bit like putting Pirelli racing slicks on a Nissan Micra!

It's huge - nearly 8 inches in diameter  ???   And it needs to be fitted in a case with a grill at the top to let out the heat. Hmm.

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quietpc.com%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Fnof-cr-95c-cu-350.jpg&hash=6d9478a6babdc2ad27441e90c81558217045d146)

Making a totally silent PC seems like searching for the holy grail.. you never quite get there.. it's always..just over the next hill!

cheers, a
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: HPsauce on July 20, 2012, 08:51:08 AM
My nieghbour has an effectively silent server in his house.
It's in a tiny box, no fans just a biggish external heat sink, SSD so no moving parts. Not sure what OS it runs.
Though I expect the (external) PSU has a low hum if you listen carefully....
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 20, 2012, 01:27:15 PM
Here is la creme de la creme of fanless CPU coolers - the Nofan CR-95C IcePipe Cooler.   At £70+VAT it costs about, erm, seventy times more than I paid for the last CPU (99p)  :o

Not really justifiable - a bit like putting Pirelli racing slicks on a Nissan Micra!

It's huge - nearly 8 inches in diameter  ???   And it needs to be fitted in a case with a grill at the top to let out the heat. Hmm.

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quietpc.com%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Fnof-cr-95c-cu-350.jpg&hash=6d9478a6babdc2ad27441e90c81558217045d146)

Making a totally silent PC seems like searching for the holy grail.. you never quite get there.. it's always..just over the next hill!cheers, a

I'm the guy that lives just over the next hill then, Asbo !!  ;) ;D Can't hear a thing when my baby is switched on.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 20, 2012, 09:27:09 PM
I'm the guy that lives just over the next hill then, Asbo !!  ;) ;D Can't hear a thing when my baby is switched on.

I believe you BS, even if the others are sceptical  ;)

Is it just me, or is there something about Asbo's picture of the IcePipe Cooler that is somehow reminiscent (adapted for scale) of the time machine in the 60's film of the HG Wells novel ?    Makes me want one even more. :D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: burakkucat on July 20, 2012, 10:06:40 PM
Quote
Is it just me, or is there something about Asbo's picture of the IcePipe Cooler that is somehow reminiscent (adapted for scale) of the time machine in the 60's film of the HG Wells novel ?

My initial thought was "Water wheel".
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: silversurfer44 on July 21, 2012, 06:21:46 AM
I thought it was something to keep the hamster happy ::)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2012, 12:03:41 PM
I thought it was something to keep the hamster happy ::)
:lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 21, 2012, 01:23:05 PM
I'm the guy that lives just over the next hill then, Asbo !!  ;) ;D Can't hear a thing when my baby is switched on.

I believe you BS, even if the others are sceptical  ;)


I know you do 7LM.  ;) ;D ;D Once the folk on 'The Dark Side' have their eyes opened, and they let Apple into their hearts ........ then they too will know quiet, peace and harmony. I'm afraid that until that day arrives, they will just have to put up with that awful, constant whirring noise in the background, or ...... connect Asbo's hamster wheel to their towers ??!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: silversurfer44 on July 21, 2012, 02:09:37 PM
I would really love to have peace quite harmony BS.
The thing is I have tinnitus and always have whistling, ringing going on in my head.
I really would love to know what quite sounds like.
That's another story though.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 21, 2012, 03:25:56 PM
Thats a real shame SS. A few of our guys have got that, and it sounds (pardon the pun) horrendous !! My sympathies. :'(
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2012, 06:36:28 PM
Its the NAS box fan that makes the noise in my room :/   PC is fine...  at least the NAS only fires up when accessed for backups etc, would do my head in if that was on all the time.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: asbokid on July 22, 2012, 12:20:28 AM
Making a totally silent PC seems like searching for the holy grail.. you never quite get there.. it's always..just over the next hill!cheers, a

I'm the guy that lives just over the next hill then, Asbo !!  ;) ;D Can't hear a thing when my baby is switched on.

I'm impressed!  What is it they say? 

This is Mac country - on a quiet night you can hear Windows rebooting!

cheers, a
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: sheddyian on July 22, 2012, 12:26:26 AM

I was about to boast that my ZX Spectrum was totally silent, but it wasn't was it?  It used to sort of fizz when it was on.

Or was that just after I spilt Fresca on it?

Ian
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: renluop on July 22, 2012, 07:00:11 AM

I'm the guy that lives just over the next hill then, Asbo !!  ;) ;D Can't hear a thing when my baby is switched on.
I've found that you can't hear anything either, whatever kind of baby is switched on, especially at high volume.
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Blackeagle on July 22, 2012, 04:15:52 PM
I've got a fanless media centre.  Its not totally quiet though as the psu hums slightly when its on.  My desktop however is quite loud, but I don't care because my cinema amp is a LOT louder  ::)
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Black Sheep on July 24, 2012, 08:25:49 PM
I love music, I especially have a penchant for late 70's and the whole of the 80's. The sound quality through my i-Mac is akin to being in a recording studio !!!

I have to admit to being a little peeved when quite a lot of Youtube vids wouldn't play, but a quick download of Adobe Flash and problem solved. He he he ........ back to my Level 42 tooons I go.  ;D
Title: Re: Your valued thoughts, please ??
Post by: Jonnyteg on September 22, 2012, 11:30:46 PM
just use the cf52 you probably have 'off vpn' its fine and you will get an upgrade every now and then  ;)