Kitz Forum
Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: broadstairs on June 22, 2012, 07:52:26 PM
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I know (now not when I joined TT some 4 years ago) that if I ever want to leave they will not allow me to keep my phone number. I cannot believe that there is any technical reason why this has to be but apparently it is a rule. Is there anyone here who can provide a good technical reason why transferring in is OK (I did it from BT) but transferring out is not done by TT? I honestly believe this is more to do with providing reasons not to leave than any technical reason.
Stuart
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I know (now not when I joined TT some 4 years ago) that if I ever want to leave they will not allow me to keep my phone number. I cannot believe that there is any technical reason why this has to be but apparently it is a rule. Is there anyone here who can provide a good technical reason why transferring in is OK (I did it from BT) but transferring out is not done by TT? I honestly believe this is more to do with providing reasons not to leave than any technical reason.
Stuart
I'm no expert on this by any stretch of the imagination, but I thought you could migrate your number from SP to SP, regardless of who they were ??? Could be wrong though.
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No I know it is a rule they will not allow transfers out...
Stuart
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Every day's a school day for me. ;D Cheers for info.
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This has been the case for a while re TalkTalk FMPF, and something I raised some reservations about Sky MPF (SVBN) some time ago as indications may be that they are (or at least were) in the same boat and I forsaw Sky some Sky users being up in arms when they realise this when a contract ends and they wish to move out, because Im pretty sure that many are not aware of this practive.
I believe the problems come as they dont have proceedures in place for number porting when they are the loosing ISP.. nor do they seem to be in any hurry to put this proceedure in place because they have nothing to gain from it.. in fact they may even retain customers just for the simple fact they dont want to change phone number. The losing SP has to release the phone no to the gaining SP.
This practice though is against guidelines set out by OFCOM
Law and regulations
European Union
Member States are required to ensure the provision of number portability to subscribers pursuant to Article 30 of the Universal Services Directive (2002/22/EU).
United Kingdom
Powers to enable Ofcom to set conditions requiring communications providers to provide number portability are set out in sections 51 and 58 of the Communications Act 2003 (the "Act").
Obligations imposed on a communications provider to provide number portability to its subscribers and to provide portability to other communications providers are set out in General Condition 18 ("Number Portability"). Ofcom has got powers to enforce any breach of that Condition under sections 94 to 103 of the Act. Civil liability for breach of that Condition could also arise, but Ofcom must first give a consent for the bringing of such civil proceedings under section 104 of the Act.
I believe you can complain to OFCOM, but they seem to be toothless at the current time.
I also believe it can be done, but only if you switch back to BT who can reclaim ownership of the line if it previously was a BT line.
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/numbering/guidance-tele-no/number-portability-info/
Apologies if this practice has changed within the past couple of months as not on my PC so cant do much googling.
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No I know it is a rule they will not allow transfers out...
My question to TalkTalk would be: "Whose rule?".
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I could be wrong, but its my belief that they dont have the technology in place to pass back ownership of the phone number on to the gaining ISP, despite having the technology to be able to receive from the loosing ISP. (Priorities!!).
After all the recent take overs by TT I should imagine that they hold a huge portion of the consumer base (takes me too long to google so if anyones interested they can do so)... but I should imagine that Sky and TTs customers jointly for broadband would be easily more than that of BT. No idea when it comes to a telco provider, but I bet TT is up there.
Yet neither of these SPs appear to have proceedures for passing on a phone number to a new SP. Could you imagine if BT said it couldnt do this either, and instead new Sky/TT customers had to be allocated a new phone number when they move to them?
If they want to be classed as a telco SP, then IMHO they should be made to adhere to the same rules as BT.
So instead what happens is the number just kinda goes dormant and unused for a period of time.
/rant
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As this is legislated as an EU Directive then surely an individual direct action case could be put forward to the Court of Justice of the European Union ?
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Yes but first we need to have a go at TT to see if they will comply.
Stuart
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My post in a thread on the TT forum asking for an explanation was deleted!! The reply to the original poster was
The majority of customers have no preference as to whether they retain their number or not.
So I have now created my own thread quoting the OFCOM stuff and asking for an explanation. Lets see what happens to that.
Stuart
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The majority of customers have no preference as to whether they retain their number or not.
I can actually believe that. Most people I know barely use the landline for voice - its just a source of annoying cold callers (nobody suggest the TPS, its a joke).
If you suggested they couldn't port a mobile number then that'd be an issue. Landline, not really.
TT should still do it if requested though. No excuses on that front.
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I can actually believe that. Most people I know barely use the landline for voice - its just a source of annoying cold callers (nobody suggest the TPS, its a joke).
If you suggested they couldn't port a mobile number then that'd be an issue. Landline, not really.
I think it is actually an age related problem, most older folk do have landlines and would want to keep it. I would want to keep mine if I move because so many of our extended family have that and not our mobiles, my wife thinks mobiles are an annoyance not a convenience so rarely carries hers (its PAYG BTW and she uses about £5 every 3-4 months!). I do carry mine but most important contacts like bank, doctors, dentist and other companies I need to be contacted by have the landline number. Having to change it is a real pain and not an inconsiderable amount of inconvenience. I really wold not be that upset if I had to lose my mobile number as I get more unwanted calls on that than I do the landline!
Stuart
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I'm sure it's age related. Like most old folk I find the preoccupation with mobile communication by my grandchildren quite incomprehensible. Perhaps if I was still working that would have to change but I fully support Broadstairs stance. I would hate to lose my landline number. After 40 years it's very easy to remember! No idea what my PAYG mobile number is.
Tony
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I don't particularly like mobiles - can't see why I should be "contactable" 24/7/365. If you want that I should be then you can pay me for being on-call.
The problem with landlines is you can spam them via VoIP for next to nothing in cost terms. That's why we all get massive amounts of Indian/US/whatever spam (cold calls).
We got a Truecall unit a couple of years ago but frankly that's just a sticking plaster on a broken system. In the last 12 months 93.6% of incoming calls have been spam - and we are ex-directory, registered with TPS/MPS etc etc. In short its an utter waste of time and we've been having serious discussions as to whether to just not bother attaching a phone to the line. I think that will happen within the next 12 months.
I'm sure the same will happen with mobiles but for now the cost puts off most of the PPI Claims/Ambulance Chasers/Insulation garbage/scams we get deluged with on the landline. Everyone else I know is much the same, kids only use it when their mobile has run out of credit and they never answer the landline. I can't say I blame them.
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>> I think it is actually an age related problem, most older folk do have landlines and would want to keep it.
I believe you may be right.. I havent mentioned it to my parents yet, because I initially suggested they used sky for their adsl... but that was back before SVBN... and I can damn well bet they are now on SVBN. They wont like it one little bit if they lose the phone number that theyve had for the past 35ish years.
Its bad enough atm trying to get mum to change her ancient mobile phone, despite me offering her a much better model for free.
But at the end of the day they use the landline for practically everything and mobile hardly ever.
TBH I wouldnt like a new phone no.. Im happy with my landline no.. I did swap it once soon after I moved in here, but that was because the police + BT advised me to do so.
Im quite lucky in that I get relatively few spam calls these days - although I get them on my mobile.
The fact is, its easy to transfer mobile numbers between networks, so I dont see why its such a big deal to do so for landlines... it just means that the LLU providers need to have the right records and software to be able to do so.
>> and we are ex-directory, registered with TPS/MPS
Funny enough, so are my parents, but they really are having a dreadful time atm particularly with the Indian type calls. They are not the sort of people to pass their phone no out willy nilly.. It only started in the past year... and I did hear a wee rumour about Skys DB being leaked.
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Im quite lucky in that I get relatively few spam calls these days
You don't need to populate whois on kitz.co.uk but you do with TLDs. Try populating any of those with accurate details and see what happens ;)
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You don't need to populate whois on kitz.co.uk but you do with TLDs. Try populating any of those with accurate details and see what happens ;)
Thats why I pay extra (http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/broadbandinfo.net) and let them sort it. ;)
For eg:-
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, LLC (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: BROADBANDINFO.NET
Administrative Contact:
Private, Registration BROADBANDINFO.NET@domainsbyproxy.com
Domains By Proxy, LLC
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599
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Fine as long as you trust them to transfer the registrar when you want ;)
I assume you haven't tried that yet or you wouldn't be showing me a GoGetF*cked reg page :D
Anyway going OT on domain stuff.
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Just catching up on this thread, this was related to my fields of work when I used to work for a living. :)
So far as I recall, number portability is still most often implemented by 'onward routing'. That is, the CP who 'owns' the number will always receive calls to that number, even after it has been ported to another CP. If the number has been ported, then that original CP has to 'onwards route' subsequent calls to the subscriber's new CP.
So, to be on the receiving end of such number porting is easy, the other CP has to do all the work, rerouting the call. Likewise, if a CP gets a new customer who brings his number with him, then letting him take his number away again if he walks is easy, all the work is still done by the original CP who allocated the number.
But if a CP allocates one of his own numbers to a subscriber who subsequently walks away, taking the number with him, then that CP has to implement the onward routing himself. It sounds very much like this is what Talk Talk haven't implemented.
There are other more efficient mechanisms for number porting, that avoid the onward routing, and encouraged by OFCOM IIRC. But ultimately, any NP mechanism depends upon the CP supporting the required features and dialogues. If Talk Talk have cut some corners, perhaps using signalling stacks of questionable pedigree, I can see why they'd not be able to 'port' their own numbers to other CPs.
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Fine as long as you trust them to transfer the registrar when you want ;)
..snip... I assume you haven't tried that yet
Yep I have :D
It would seriously harm GoDaddy's reputation if they started locking you in.
I transferred one account over to Vidahost (who also now do it) from them last year without any problems. Only reason that particular one is still with GoDaddy is I was up to my eyes in other stuff and forgot about it until the last minute and i just let it auto renew.
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Edited to add..
That one will definitely be going on next renewal too.. just realised vidahost is much cheaper than godaddy for their privacy protection.
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Fine as long as you trust them to transfer the registrar when you want ;)
..snip... I assume you haven't tried that yet
Yep I have :D
It would seriously harm GoDaddy's reputation if they started locking you in.
I transferred one account over to Vidahost (who also now do it) from them last year without any problems. Only reason that particular one is still with GoDaddy is I was up to my eyes in other stuff and forgot about it until the last minute and i just let it auto renew.
That's not what I'm hearing now. YMMV of course.
Edit - IME GoDaddy's reputation is bad, even before the mass-marketing. Again YMMV.
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There are other more efficient mechanisms for number porting, that avoid the onward routing, and encouraged by OFCOM IIRC. But ultimately, any NP mechanism depends upon the CP supporting the required features and dialogues. If Talk Talk have cut some corners, perhaps using signalling stacks of questionable pedigree, I can see why they'd not be able to 'port' their own numbers to other CPs.
Thanks 7LM for the additional info, I think the above paragraph may sum it up.
All I knew was basic fact that despite they should be able to, they hadnt implemented the necessary technology to be able to do so... I just assumed they were cutting corners on cost... after all why spend money on something if a customer is no longer with you.
Despite the fact that all the mobile providers do and BT has to or OFCOM would come down on them like a ton of bricks.
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I now have some clarification from TT. If you move supplier of the phone service you can take your number with you as long as your new provider is willing to arrange this, apparently TT cannot prevent this. Good news.
However if you move home TT will NOT allow you to move your number with you. While this is OK if you move out of the exchange area, moving within an exchange should be allowed but they do not currently offer this service, so your only option is to change supplier in this case. Seems a bit short sighted to me as I for one would take this option on moving house (within the exchange area).
Strange thing is my thread on this is now locked so I cannot ask why!
Stuart
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Strange thing is my thread on this is now locked so I cannot ask why!
Are you sure that you, the OP, cannot re-open your thread? Look under the "Topic Options" drop-down menu . . . I think that is what it is called.
Failing that, just open another thread! :)
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I now have some clarification from TT. If you move supplier of the phone service you can take your number with you as long as your new provider is willing to arrange this, apparently TT cannot prevent this. Good news.
However if you move home TT will NOT allow you to move your number with you. While this is OK if you move out of the exchange area, moving within an exchange should be allowed but they do not currently offer this service, so your only option is to change supplier in this case. Seems a bit short sighted to me as I for one would take this option on moving house (within the exchange area).
Strange thing is my thread on this is now locked so I cannot ask why!
Stuart
Very strange.
Personally, I'd be open minded to the possibility of the following scenario...
1) They lack the technology to properly port numbers, as described in my earlier post.
2) The subtleties of what can/cannot be done are beyond the reasoning ability/ attention span of TT support.
3) Like most unskilled support staff they prefer to BS the customer, rather than admit they don't understand their own technology.
That's just one possible explanation for what you've been told, and pure speculaton on my part. There may be others explanations that will become apparent, though it's hard to see that happening if your thread has been blocked.
PS, i see B'cat has posted as I typed, no contradiction, posting anyway.
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Pondering this some more, it is of course (moving house) quite a different problem from number portability, which is more about swapping providers whilst keeping the same line. The former may be more of a plumbing issue within the exchange, rather than any signalling wizzardry.
Perhaps it is only BT, with their command of exchange wiring, who can provide the service of keeping old number at new address nearby (ie same exchange). Yet, if a subscriber migrated from TT to BT, then moved home keeping number, then migrated back to TT, the miracle would have been achieved. So it must be possible.
I wonder... do other LLU providers offer this service, taken for granted for decades now, of moving home with same number? I'll be intriqued to hear the proper technical explanation, if TT ever provide one.
- 7LM
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I know from neighbours its virtually impossible to keep the same number with Virgin, doesn't matter where you move to. Not sure if that is still the case but it was in 2008 when it was apparently possible in theory but in practice it didn't happen within 3 months.
To be quite honest I can't see what the problem is - we got calls forwarded for 3 months after we moved, much like the Royal Mail. I can see it being an issue for business (then again just use VoIP, job done) and older people but its not really an issue many people will care about - and even less will care enough to actively complain.
Not trying to say its fine but I think its one of these issues which has limited interest to regulators.
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>> Perhaps it is only BT, with their command of exchange wiring,
No idea, but you would think it would not be impossible to be done since WLR 'telco' providers can request BT to do this.
Once upon a time it was impossible to move back from datastream to ipstream nvm LLU without hastle and long downtimes.
With the advent of MSANs which hold both Telco and adsl on the line cards you'd think it could be done with a bit of jumpering and electronic switching.
I think perhaps not as many are bothered about retaining numbers when they move, as many people may move to a different area served by a different exchange and are willing to accept things like call forwarding and mail forwarding as an expense to be considered in moving costs.
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and older people
Steady now Rizla, that may include a lot of folks here :lol:
Seriously, the following considerations may arise...
1) A person may have a number he just likes.
2) A person may not want to bother writing to all old friends and relatives, notifying them of new number.
3) The 'new' number assigned may have been recycled from somebody else who freely volunteered the number on loyalty card applications, prize daws and the likes, leading to a big increase in nuisance calls.
Admittedly though, most times we move we switch exchanges too, so we have to live with the hardship. And we survive. :)
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Feeling pretty damn old myself these days :)
You can get a new number if the assigned one is prone to spamming for previous scumbag ;) You just have to complain within 3 months of the line going active.
Writing to people, well email and BCC is the way to do that. I know there will be a fair few elderly people who don't use email, so email their relatives. Otherwise you do what we've always done, send out loads of "change of address cards".
None of this detracts from TT's failure, just trying to point out that we have more options now. Everyone still had to be told in the past and getting a number change because of anything other than harassment used to be damn near impossible.