Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: toulouse on June 13, 2012, 03:05:39 PM
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Hello,
I wonder if anyone can explain the reasons for what follows.
I have been a customer of Plusnet since I moved to my present address in June 2007. At that time my newly connected line provided a constant 8Mbps with attenuation of 32db. During the period that BTs 21CN was being introduced I signed up to join what was called, at the time, a WBC 21CN trial. Initially, my line did seem to increase in speed, and the attenuation went up from around 32db to 35db, which I later found out was quite normal when switching to 21CN. Over a period of many months, some better than others, the overall trend was a decrease in synch speed and wavering attenuation. Whenever I contacted the ISP they seemed to be of the view that my line was performing very well overall, considering the distance from the exchange. I assume they were basing that on the attenuation, but could be wrong about that.
As this went on and on for many months, and mainly because of the frustration that I was experiencing, I looked into having a new line installed by O2. I was already an O2 mobile customer and this provides me with a £5 per month discount on the broadband service that they provide. It had been my intention to run these two lines in parallel in order to compare their performance for a short time, but I still have both in service. Now, I do realise that the O2 broadband service is LLU, whereas the service provided by Plusnet, as far as I know uses standard BT equipment, and is therefore NOT 'unbundled'
The bit that I don't understand is why the O2 line synchs up at around 15Mbps at 29db attenuation, and has suffered only one outage as far as I can recall. Whereas the BT/Plusnet line appears incapable of connecting at much over 11Mbps with an attenuation of 36db, and is up and down like the proverbial lady of the nights underthings. As I said before, I have brought this to the attention of Plusnet on many occasions, but their attitude seems to be that I'm very lucky indeed to be able to use their service at all !!!!! Go figure.
Any thoughts on this would be very welcome
toulouse
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Your BT line is certainly underperforming. Assuming that the original 32 dB / 8 Mbps are accurate, then you should get something in the region of 14 Mbps on ADSL2+. However, do check that you are actually on ADSL2+ and not just ADSL2. If you could copy your router stats here we might see something else which would explain the issue (e.g. high noise margin).
LLU shouldn't make any difference (in principle at least). It still uses the same ADSL2+ protocol, and on the same line it should give much the same results. The fact that your second line has a lower attenuation and higher speed implies that the second line follows a slightly different route to the exchange.
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Thanks for those comments Eric. I will try and get the Routerstats 'stuff' included. I'm currently using a Netgear DGND3300 on that line, but will revert it to my trusty DG834 over the next few days. I'm not sure that Routerstats works with the DGND3300, but I know it does with the DG834
The 8Mbps on the original Plusnet product is accurate, although of course I no longer have any proof of that.
Yes, indeed Plusnet did tell me that I should see speeds of Up To 14Mbps prior to me upgrading to their ADSL2+ service. I signed up for the ADSL2+ (WBC/21CN) product, but the line has never achieved anywhere near that - I think the highest I have seen is around 12Mbps, and that was during the trial that I mentioned. And the line is always up and down like a yo-yo.
I should perhaps have mentioned that when the O2 line was installed, the OR engineer just tapped into what he referred to as a DP (Distribution Point) within the building in which I live. In other words, both lines as far as I am aware, share the same cable and route from the exchange to the local cabinet, and thence on to my building terminating at a rather ancient looking box hanging off the wall, where the individual lines to each of 12 separate flats are distributed from.
I'll be back with the Routerstats stuff later,
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When I said 'router stats' I meant the stats reported by your router, i.e. upstream/downstream speed, attenuation and noise margin. I wasn't referring to the Routerstats program.
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Ok, sorry about that misunderstanding Eric.
The current stats as reported by the Netgear DGND3300 (Plusnet Line) are :
Down Up
11239 Connection Speed 440
36.0 Attenuation 17.3
5.9 Noise Margin 28.2
This is following a further test of the line by Plusnet approximately 3 hours ago, i.e. around 13:50 this afternoon.
By way of comparison the O2 line is currently showing the following :
Down Up
14888 Connection Speed 1256
29.0 Attenuation 16.0
4.5 Noise Margin 6.5
and has been connected continuously for in excess of 53 days.
I am right in thinking that something isn't right here, aren't I ?
TTFN
toulouse
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Could be routed over a higher attenuated E-side than the other circuit ?? Plus, different routers have different resistance.
I'd hedge my bets on it being the former. ;) :)
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different routers have different resistance.
Might be worth posting the stats from another router just to make sure :).
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Thanks for those additional comments.
@Black Sheep - if your first suggestion is correct I guess it's never going to get any better than it's been
@Black Sheep and @arobertson - as far as I am aware, the figures are pretty much the same using the present Netgear DGND3300 and a Netgear DG834G v4 with current firmware.
I'll revert back to the DG834 probably tomorrow just to confirm this.
TTFN
toulouse
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Just a quick update, now that I have reconnected the Netgear DG834G v4 on the Plusnet line
Down Up
11216 Connection Speed 440
36.0 Attenuation 17.3
6.4 Noise Margin 30.4
These figures were taken approx. 4 hours after connection.
Is it safe to assume, that if what Black Sheep suggested about the E-side pair is correct, then that's as good as it's ever going to get.
Thanks to all those who have commented thus far.
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Your BT line is still underperforming in relation to its attenuation. It's probably affected by some sort of interference, crosstalk or whatever. This is where Routerstats (the program) could be useful in plotting the variation in noise margin over time. But first you ought to connect the router directly to the test socket, just to eliminate your own internal wiring as a possible cause of the problem.
A separate issue is that the upstream speed seems to have been capped at 440 kbps. Plusnet should be able to correct this for you.
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Ok, once again thanks for those comments Eric.
Just out of interest, could you tell me what kind of speed should be expected for the attenuation that is being reported by the router. I have had a look around this site, but haven't been able to track it down, as I remember seeing a chart displaying attenuation plotted against expected speeds, which I thought was on here. Maybe I'm mistaken about that though.
Regarding the internal wiring situation, it's all pretty basic really. I live in a building which contains 12 flats. The local cabinet is around 50 metres from my building. A cable runs from there to a distribution point in a communal area and then each flat has a connection from there. In my case, on the ground floor of the building, although the wiring is quite old and there was at one time an extension socket running off of the main socket, that has been disconnected for some time as far as I know. But I will definitely check that again. Since the O2 line was installed in January 2011, and that line has given no problems since then, I assume that if there were any internal wiring problems that would affect both lines - or am I wrong about that. The two lines are terminated at NTE boxes side by side both with splitter/ ADSL filters installed.
As regards the Upstream speed on the Plusnet line, I was aware that customers can request uncapping of the Upstream rate, but I have no real need for an increase in Upstream speed, whereas I could use a bit more on the Downstream. Thanks for mentioning it though.
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If there are no extension sockets fed from the NTE boxes, then you can forget the suggestion to try the test socket, as there's no extension wiring to be eliminated. So Routerstats monitoring would be a helpful next step.
Although you don't particularly need an increased upstream speed, you might as well have the cap removed anyway, because you won't lose anything on the downstream by doing so - there's no trade-off between the two.
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Ok, Routerstats has now been running since just before 6:00 this morning when I connected the DG834G.
In particular, which graphs or log features would be appropriate to enable further diagnosis of the situation.
I really do appreciate you taking the time to look at this for me.
TTFN
toulouse
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The noise margin graph is the first port of call. By default I think you get about three hours' worth on one Routerstats page, and you can configure it to save each page automatically as it fills up. Any sections which show large variations in noise margin would be useful evidence.
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Your BT line is still underperforming in relation to its attenuation.
Are you sure, it's pretty much spot on uses Kitz' own calculator?
36dB, 11mbps...
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Are you sure, it's pretty much spot on uses Kitz' own calculator?
36dB, 11mbps...
The thing is, the calculator is based on the attenuation as recorded on an ADSL(1) connection, which in this case was 32 dB.
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Downstream rate looks OKish for attenuation.
Something horrible is going on with the upstream though.
A lot of flats have a communal distribution point and the wiring after that is a rats nest, generally installed by a sparky who hasn't the first clue about anything other than mains wiring.
Every time I hear someone is having a problem with ADSL in flats I shudder, as the likelihood is that its crap wiring from the communal distribution point (which is also usually the NTE point as well) to the flat.
Edit - if the line has always been this way then a split pair from the communal distribution point to the flat sounds fairly likely.
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Thanks for that Rizla. I think you are probably quite correct, as it looks to me as if the wiring was done many years ago, and the DP which you mention and which is indeed in a communal area, is only just fixed to the wall. I still think that as both of the lines come from (possibly different equipment at) the local exchange, I'm struggling to understand why this disparity exists between the two loop loss figures - or is it just a YYGT
toulouse
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I don't know - it could be the internal wiring. It could equally be that one line is older than the other and takes a different physical route from the exchange.
Something horrible is going on with upstream though, which suggests a local problem.
Edit - I don't suppose a quiet line test has any noise on it using a phone with a cord? If it did then that'd be ideal as you can get BT out on a voice fault.
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Something horrible is going on with the upstream though.
Surely that's just PlusNet capping (as mentioned earlier I think....) :-X
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Quiet Line Test - absolute silence - so no joy there
Upstream Rate - yes, it is just how it was set up when I was switched to ADSL2+ - never had any special need for faster upstream, so I just left it as it was.
Maybe it is just a YYGT, then.
toulouse
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It's the BT DLM system on the upstream surely? It doesn't look like a stuck profile to me and its not the old ADSLMax upstream rate of 448kbps so its likely something is generating lots of errors on upstream. toulouse also mentions the line isn't very stable to say the least ;)
I reckon he has local wiring problems.
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Easy to check, ask PlusNet.
They do cap upstream by default though.
(Occams razor....)
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Yes, the Plusnet line has had a number of issues since switching to the ADSL2+ product. Prior to that on their Up to 8Mbps it was as 'STABLE AS A STABLE THING THAT JUST COULD NOT GET ANY MORE STABLE' - do I make myself clear ? It has already been explained to me that the ADSL2+ products use considerably higher frequencies, and it is therefore much more prone to problems caused by interference, but I don't think there is any interference in this area.
Some of these issues have been reported by Plusnet as a MSO affecting my area, but when I have asked for further details, it suddenly goes rather quiet. I'd rather they just say we don't know what's causing your problem, or something like 'YYGT'
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I'm not really all that familiar with the BT DLM, however 440kbps is an odd figure to cap at for someone moving from ADSL to ADSL2+ given that he should have been on 448kbps there.
We'll see :)
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toulouse - can you ask Plusnet whether the upstream is capped by them or the DLM please?
I suspect you'll find its DLM which has set it there and that happened when you were on the old product (ADSL1).
ADSL2+ uses higher frequencies yes, but your upstream frequencies are LOWER than downstream so it really shouldn't be a major factor. Upstream on ADSL2+ should be around the 1Mbps sync rate unless there's something horribly wrong or an incorrect profile has been manually set (hello Sky tier 1 support :) ).
In any event if the line is dropping sync and your upstream rate is very low (which it is, for whatever reason) then you obviously have a problem. I suspect its wiring within the building but as to what you can get done about it then I don't know. Maybe some of the BT guys here could suggest a way forward?
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Hey thanks again for that rizla.
I will certainly ask Plusnet about the Upstream rate, but from memory I believe that 440 was the default setting for Upstream when switching to ADSL2+ products. It is, as far as I am aware, a flick of a switch at Plusnet, which takes 3-4 days for some reason. I don't know if I can be bothered with that, as I certainly don't need any more upstream speed. In all honesty, is an increase in Upstream rate likely to have any impact on Downstream loop loss, which is really where the problem is as far as I can see.
Maybe, you are correct and I need to source a local BTO engineer who would like some 'beer tokens' - what do you think ?
Thanks for taking the time to try and help resolve this for me.
TTFN
toulouse (My Brain Hurts !!!!!)
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It's worth getting PN to "uncap" as then we'll be able to see the full ADSL spectrum "unencumbered" by artificial limits.
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OK HPSauce, I'll have a word with them about getting it uncapped, but I think it will take a couple of days to kick in.
More later.......
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It's the BT DLM system on the upstream surely? It doesn't look like a stuck profile to me and its not the old ADSLMax upstream rate of 448kbps so its likely something is generating lots of errors on upstream. toulouse also mentions the line isn't very stable to say the least ;)
I reckon he has local wiring problems.
If you look at the quoted stats you'll see that the upstream noise margin is very high, and the upstream speed is 440 kbps in both sets of stats. That makes it more likely that the upstream speed is capped by Plusnet, and not the result of a very noisy connection (in my opinion).
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It would be useful to see toulouse. Your upstream attenuation is broadly similar on each line, you clearly don't have any local REIN-type stuff going on as the line which syncs faster is stable.
If the Plusnet line syncs up to a reasonable upstream rate then that will show its probably not local wiring and that line is routed differently to the Be/O2 line and/or there's some issue on D or E side cabling.
At that point its time to get someone to manually tweak the Plusnet line (alter INP/etc) so its stable.
For now we're guessing, all we can go on is the upstream rate is lower than it should be, the attenuation on d/s is significantly higher on the Plusnet line and the Plusnet line is not stable.
That could be a local wiring problem like a split pair/short in the communal distribution point or it could be the line takes a different route and/or has problems further down the line.
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It's the BT DLM system on the upstream surely? It doesn't look like a stuck profile to me and its not the old ADSLMax upstream rate of 448kbps so its likely something is generating lots of errors on upstream. toulouse also mentions the line isn't very stable to say the least ;)
I reckon he has local wiring problems.
If you look at the quoted stats you'll see that the upstream noise margin is very high, and the upstream speed is 440 kbps in both sets of stats. That makes it more likely that the upstream speed is capped by Plusnet, and not the result of a very noisy connection (in my opinion).
I don't know about the BT DLM but the Sky DLM will "cap" upload if it sees a certain error count per hour (to be more accurate it progressively increases the INP until the error count falls below the threshold). That results in an apparently high margin which (almost) invariably leads to local wiring/REIN issues being the cause of the DLM problem. Downstream DLM on Sky is just broken :)
Its unlikely to be local REIN as the O2 line looks fine and if toulouse hadn't said the line was unstable I'd have just thought "one of those things".
Wiring still looks favourite to me.
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I have now requested, via my outstanding Support ticket, the uncapping of the Upstream rate, which I think will take a couple of days to implement
In the meantime, for those of you who haven't yet fallen asleep with boredom from this thread - the Routerstats Noise Margin trace is still running at something between 6 and 7. There was a small increase from around 6.3 to 6.9 for a while earlier on, but other than that it all looks pretty flat. I'll keep that running overnight and report back with any other changes.
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If the line is unbalanced (ie wiring problems) then I'd expect to see your Plusnet line have noticeably lower noise margins after dark than the O2 line.
Simple reason is that after dark MF radio bounces off the ionosphere and travels further which increases interference to ADSL signals - especially overhead lines.
Now if the line is nicely balanced the MF "noise" (radio) on both the A and B wires of your line should be in-phase and will be largely cancelled out at the input of your router (common-mode rejection ratio - CMRR is the techie term).
If the line isn't anywhere near balanced then the "noise" on each wire will be out of phase and will cause problems.
Anyway lets see what happens when Plusnet do what you ask.
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Just a quick update for anyone who may still be interested.
I have had a message back from Plusnet, advising that an order has been placed to uncap my Upstream rate, which I'm told should kick in on Monday.
No spikes or major changes in any of the Routerstats data, but I will continue to monitor it, and report back with anything which I think is significant.
Thanks to all for your input and suggestions
TTFN
toulouse
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Will be interesting to see :
a) if your upstream increases a lot;
b) if it makes the line less stable.
The problem with DLM/profiles etc is that it makes any sort of "forum diagnosis" a real pain. I've helped people on the Sky forums who (from router line stats) seemed to have a maxed-out line. Noise margin looks right etc. In a lot of cases it turns out the Sky DLM/profiling system has slapped on ludicrous levels of INP (Impulse Noise Protection) and when that gets changed the stats look a whole lot different.
INP is only useful for UDP traffic anyway, TCP will retransmit so at the TCP/IP layer it'd affect DNS lookups, gaming and a bit of streaming for most people. DNS will retry, games are normally designed to cope with packet loss but streaming usually ends up rebuffering as the video is compressed and can't recover until a key frame is received. I'm not convinced INP is of any use in anything other than streaming, which of course is the holy grail for Sky (satellites are fragile, expensive and can't be repaired commercially). Set INP and encode video key frames/buffering right and you'd have a rock solid platform with the low overhead UDP brings.
Sorry went well off-topic there :)
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Hey rizla, no problem. Your input is very interesting - you will excuse me for saying that you certainly seem to be a REAL techie.
I guess we'll have to wait until Monday to see what my line does once the brakes have been taken off the Upstream. Do you think that I may see an increase on the Downstream as well, or shall we just wait and see ? Just out of interest, within the Plusnet Member Centre, under Connection Details - High Speed Broadband up until quite recently my profile has been showing as something like '10.1'. I did notice yesterday during my many dips in and out of that page, that the same 'profile' is now showing as '11'. I'm not quite sure what that relates to, as they seem to have changed the format of this indicator some time in the recent past. It always used to show the BT Bras profile (or something very similar), as far as I'm aware.
Anyway, thanks for your remarks, for now.
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I used to design military radar systems - ESM/ECM/missiles*. Then I did some programming, then telecomms, then network security then datacentre work, then hotels/whatever I could get, and so on. The UK is largely screwed for anyone doing electrical/electronics design activities these days other than aero engines in Derby (problems looming), some foreign-owned "defence" companies and some ESA stuff on the South Coast. Go North of Brum and there's virtually nothing now. Last design work I did was for a German supermarket chain putting a datacentre in Belarus. Not something I'd recommend. до свидания pet or what? ;)
I dunno what I'd call myself these days, certainly not an engineer. A tinkerer maybe :)
*anyone in London with Rapier FSC missile batteries nearby for the Olympic nonsense - I redesigned that so that two missiles in the air at once actually works. However if the link from the command transmitter fails then things get a little "hairy". Pretty sure google will lead you to some lovely videos of the range at Benbecula with missiles "looping the loop". Rather you than me :D
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Nice one !!!
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Hiya guys (and gals if applicable),
It's time for me to 'fess up. This morning I plugged a corded phone into the extension socket, which I had previously been told by 2 separate BT engineers was dead. And guess what.....yep, there's a dialling tone on that socket. This kind of suggests to me at least that that socket is something other than 'dead'.
What to do now !!!
Perhaps, I'll wait until Monday when the uncapped upstream rate kicks in, and then see what's what. Or maybe I ought to get a small screwdriver out and have a poke around - what do you all think ?
TTFN
toulouse
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get a small screwdriver out and have a poke around
Definitely. ASAP.
But first dial 17070 from that socket and check what line it's on.
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I've had another thought (with my brain) - how about a filtered faceplate ? I did use to use one obtained from Clarity some years ago, but during the course of trying to track down various problems on this particular line it was removed and never returned. I'm right in thinking that that would 'automagically' bypass any extension wiring, aren't I ?
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It depends where the extension is wired in. Not unknown for it to bypass the faceplate. :-X
17070 and screwdrivers are the best initial investigatory tools.
Fit the solution to the problem, once you've identified it. ;)
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Ok, thanks HPSauce. I'll take a little look as you suggest.
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If you don't use the extension (which you obviously don't) I'd be inclined to disconnect it at the NTE. If that improves the Plusnet line then you can have a think about whether you actually want the extension for future use.
DECT phones have decent coverage, I ripped out all out "internal" wiring years ago and just got a DECT pack with 3 handsets.
I wonder if the bell wire is connected on the "rogue" extension wiring, it'd explain a lot.....
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Ok guys, here we go.
I plugged the corded phone into the extension socket, and did a 17070. It is indeed the line which is associated with Plusnet. I did a quiet line test while there - again absolute silence. I also undid the screws on the extension socket faceplate to find that all six wires are connected to the terminals. While fannying around (or putting it more politely - doing this bit of research), I decided to reinstall my old filtered faceplate which I previously mentioned. Everything is now back running again, but nothing much appears to have changed significantly. Some figures for your perusal :
Before ANY fannying around by me
Down Up
11216 Connection Speed 440
36.0 Attenuation 17.3
6.3 Noise Margin 28.1
After installing filtered faceplate
Down Up
11461 Connection Speed 440
36.0 Attenuation 17.2
6.2 Noise Margin 30.3
After all the above and a router reboot
Down Up
11378 Connection Speed 440
36.0 Attenuation 17.3
6.2 Noise Margin 30.0
I guess it's now time to try and work out where that extension wiring runs and whereabouts it connects into the circuit. There is a REALLY old junction box type 'thingy' involved, and from my non-expert visual inspection I think the extension wiring runs from there, so I probably need to be a bit careful. But I will also check the terminals in the Linebox, just to make sure.
In the words of the Great Arnie, I'll be back later
TTFN
toulouse
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I also undid the screws on the extension socket faceplate to find that all six wires are connected to the terminals.
Bloody hell it is old. BT phased out 6 core cable ages ago, likewise DIY extension kits have had 4 wires for ages.
6 wires means the bell wire is connected.
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Old, or put in "later" by the likes of an electrician or Sky installer..... :-X
(depends on the colour coding probably)
Are the cores solid colours (if so which) or "banded" such as blue on white, white on blue etc?
It won't necessarily affect speed much but will almost certainly affect stability. :graduate:
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What's irritating is that the BTO guys quite obviously never checked the socket. I know you're pushed for time on jobs but that's no excuse when its such a quick check.
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Ok, I'm back - the old junction box type 'thingy' (sorry, but I don't know if it's got a techie name), has 8 screw terminals inside. It looks as if 3 of the wires running to the extension socket are NOT connected at the junction box. Those NOT connected at the junction box are GREEN/WHITE, WHITE/ORANGE and WHITE/GREEN. Does any of this make sense to you guys ?
I suppose it follows, that the remaining wires in that cable, should also be disconnected from the junction box, thereby making absolutely sure that the extension socket 'is no more'. I definitely have no plans to use a corded phone at that socket, as like most people these days I have a central base station and a number of phones in various rooms around the flat.
Anyone fancy a trip to the seaside ?
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the remaining wires in that cable, should also be disconnected from the junction box
Absolutely. You know it makes sense. :graduate:
So, modernish (PABX-type?) cable, not old-school stuff, wonder who put it in?
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Not sure who put it in. I've been here a little over 5 years now, and it was all in place then. The guy that lived here before told me he had ADSL speeds of 16Mbps, which I have been trying to get too. Unfortunately, quite a few things that they told me, were somewhere between a 'figment of somebody's imagination' and 'not quite true'. They were heavily into 'networking' by which I don't mean using CAT5/CAT6 cable, but 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' type of thing. You live and learn, I guess.
Thanks for sticking with me through this little 'problemette' to both HPSauce and rizla, and anyone else who would like to chip in.
I'm now gonna look for an illuminated magnifying glass type 'thingy', so I hopefully don't disconnect the wrong wires. May see you all later, but if not you know what's happened :D
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Where does the cable go from the junction box? Presumably it makes its way into the back of the NTE? ie the BT side of the NTE
Just to be clear :
NTE<->"old junction box"<->extension socket
<-> is wiring
How does it get to the junction box from the NTE?
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Ok, I think I'm getting somewhere at last.
*----------------------------- My Flat (Ground Floor) ------------------------------------------*
D.P. -----> J.B. ------> LineBox -----> Filtered Faceplate -------> Router ------> Windows Computer
|
|
+--------> Extension socket
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
As I'm sure you'll understand D.P. - distribution point for the building (looks like it came out of Noahs Ark)
J.B. junction box (circa 1960ish I would guess). Turns out to be 4 terminals on closer exam.
Linebox (looks relatively recent - has the BT 'trumpeter' from 80''s)
Extension socket (as above marked with BT 'trumpeter' and 'PCS' ??? )
Faceplate (purchased from Clarity prior to 2007 when I moved here)
Router - Netgear DG834G v4 (current firmware)
......
the rest as they say.....
Anyway, I guess I need to bite the bullet and disconnect those remaining wires to the extension socket. Am I allowed top do that based upon the above (rather shoddy) diagram, or should I make arrangements for an engineer ?
toulouse
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You're not really allowed to touch those wires connecting to the junction box (but you're not going to end up in jail if you do :) ). Depending on what sort of terminals it uses, it should be straighforward enough to disconnect the wires going to the extension, or just snip them off close to the terminals.
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I think I'd just snip them rather than anything else.
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I've snipped the remaining 3 wires to the extension, and everything is as it was, that is to say I haven't broken anything - weehee. I just have a bit of wiring removal to attend to now, and will have to wait and see what happens on Monday when the Upstream becomes uncapped.
Thanks guys for your guidance
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I don't know how the BT DLM system works - lets say (for example) that the work toulouse has done will improve both d/s and u/s. Will the BT DLM/profiling system react to that or does it need a prod in the right direction so to speak? I know it will drop stable lines to 3dB but I'm not sure what it does about INP/etc.
I know that on Sky you'd need to get support to do a manual reconfigure on the line profile (very easy to get this done) or restart DLM training. On Sky DLM only ever decreases after the training period; it won't increase even if the line improves a lot.
Assuming BT work much the same way as Sky then maybe worth getting DLM training restarted? It doesn't take 10 days like on Sky so you should see if its helped pretty fast.
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No, I don't know either how BTs Dastardly/Devious/Delirious/Delinquent Line Manager works. To be honest in my previous dabblings with said entity it seemed to me that NOONE, not even BT know how it works. That would certainly answer a lot of questions for many people. I think since I went onto ADSL2+, I have only ever seen it (if indeed it was DLM) decrease my speed, and in most cases a router reboot usually gets back some of the connection speed, but not necessarily all of it. It also seems to depend on what time of the day you reboot, but I'm sure we all knew that.
Of course, now that I have eliminated the 'disconnected' extension socket from the equation it will be interesting to see what happens on Monday.
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I promise not to start caterwauling . . . but just a query from an inquisitive feline. ;)
The junction-box, between the DP and the NTE5/A, did it have three cables entering it? One coming from the DP, one going to the NTE5/A and one going to the "disconnected" extension?
If that last mentioned cable now "just-so-happens" not to have any of its wires connected within the junction box, application of a cat's claw (or other suitable implement) could remove it all. Then when the property owner next redecorates, there will be no evidence that it ever existed! :D
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Miaooooooooow,
It has all been in place for some considerable time by the look of it all. I suspect that the previous occupier had a moonlighter in to add in the extension and possibly install a Linebox at the same time. All the wiring from the D.P. to the J.B. to the Linebox is under a few layers of paint. I must get around to tidying it all up. The extension cable all looks fairly new by comparison, but as rizla said earlier today it must have been done some time ago, as 'modern' installations use a 4 wire cable or less if I understand it correctly.
I can't wait to see what happens on Monday
Miaooooooooooow
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What's irritating is that the BTO guys quite obviously never checked the socket. I know you're pushed for time on jobs but that's no excuse when its such a quick check.
You're taking somebody's word for what has gone on, I work to facts. Either way, extention wiring is of no concern to BT Openreach, unless specifically instructed to, ie: The EU pays for us to work on it. The demarcation point is the Master Socket. Toulouse has obviously managed the dark art of plugging a phone in, to see if the socket is actually 'live'. Hardly a great irritation imo.
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You have MY word that what I said, and what rizla said about it, is the case.
toulouse
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Good to hear. My statement also still stands. extention wiring or associated sockets are NOT our concern. An able-bodied individual should be capable of checking their own sockets.
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Ok, I'm glad to hear that. And what about those who have a long term illness or disability.
When told by 2 separate engineers on 2 separate visits that the socket was disconnected from the circuit, at what point would you suggest that a customer practice the dark art of 'plugging in a phone' - while the engineer is still present or before or after he's left on his obviously extremely tight schedule ? I do know that it isn't the engineers fault that he only gets a limited time for any task, but the leviathan that BT is these days, does need a good pull through with a very stiff brush, at least that's how it appears to us on the outside.
I'm sorry, but it's like most things in life these days, I think it's best practice not to believe single thing that anyone tells you, or at least have a means of checking what you're told - but what a world that would be.
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Ok, I'm glad to hear that. And what about those who have a long term illness or disability.
When told by 2 separate engineers on 2 separate visits that the socket was disconnected from the circuit, at what point would you suggest that a customer practice the dark art of 'plugging in a phone' - while the engineer is still present or before or after he's left on his obviously extremely tight schedule ? I do know that it isn't the engineers fault that he only gets a limited time for any task, but the leviathan that BT is these days, does need a good pull through with a very stiff brush, at least that's how it appears to us on the outside.
I'm sorry, but it's like most things in life these days, I think it's best practice not to believe single thing that anyone tells you, or at least have a means of checking what you're told - but what a world that would be.
BT have got measures in place for the disabled or elderly. That's why I said 'able-bodied' in my comments.
The point at which you should check the socket is before an engineering visit is made. The Time Related Charges that could apply (dependant on the fault), are immense. You'd soon be kicking and screaming if you were hit by a £160+VAT bill, if the fault was proven to be your internal wiring/sockets causing the fault.
The issue I'm trying to put over is you (The EU) own your internal wiring/sockets. Ergo, it shouldn't be termed an "irritation" if 100+ engineers say that your extention socket is 'dead'. You should check it yourself in the first instance.
This isn't meant as inflamatory Toulouse, this is good practice for anybody reading these boards to save a possible bill landing on their lap.
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Ok Black Sheep, thanks for clarifying that. I certainly don't want to get into any arguments over this thread, but I REALLY would like to know if there is anything else I can do to try and get a little more oomph, and a little less attenuation out of my Plusnet line, or at least get it on a par with the newly installed ( Jan 2011 ) O2 line.
Following my adventures yesterday the extension socket is, I think, no longer a part of the equation, at least it has been disconnected from the junction box type 'thingy'. The wiring is currently still in place but disconnected from the circuit.
As I'm not sure whether you have read this thread from the beginning, just a brief outline of the situation.
When I moved to my ground floor flat in 2007, there was a telephone line here which I think had been cut off because of non-payment by the previous owner. I had the line reactivated by BT, and during the first year or so I was happy with their service, but I went with Plusnet as my ISP. From day 1 that line connected at the full 8128/448, with Downstream Attenuation of 32dB, and I was a very happy bunny indeed. Over the course of time, I switched to an ADSL2+ product, having been assured by the ISP that I could expect to see speeds of Upto 14Mbps. This line has never achieved anywhere near that speed, the maximum being around the 12Mbps with Downstream Attenuation of initially something in the region of 35.0 / 35.5 / 36.0 as reported by my Netgear router. I'm fairly sure that this has varied as shown over a period of maybe 2-3 years and I'm not sure if it's particularly significant. I could probably find some recorded figures from the Speedtouch ST516 supplied by Plusnet, if required, but as far as I can recall they are pretty much the same.
However, the line which was '*** installed ***' by O2 (actually 2 BTO engineers came to my flat, installed a Linebox and tested the line) has performed consistently at in excess of 14Mbps, aside from one or maybe two external, and as far as I know completely unauthorised 'construction worker' customisations of the national telephony infrastructure. That is to say, and I'm sure you've seen a few of these in your time, they hit an underground telephone cable or put a spade or something through a cable which they shouldn't have done. I think the BT / ISP term for this type of occurrence is a Major Service Outage.
Note -> above '*** installed ***', an NTE/5 LInebox was fitted, but no new cable was fitted, at least not from the D.P. As a non-expert in the telephony arena, I was kind of expecting some new cabling - was I wrong to expect that ?
Anyway, I digress,.....
What I was hoping to achieve when I started this thread was to seek opinions from those people, like yourself, who frequent this excellent forum and are far more knowledgeable about this subject than I am. It was my view, that the 2 telephone lines which I currently have, and which both originate at my local telephone exchange, somehow arrive at the building in which I live, are connected to what I have since found out is called a Distribution Point, from where a cable enters my flat and provides me with two separate telephones, and two separate broadband services, in an ideal world ought to provide a similar if not identical service in terms of speed. Sadly, that just is not the case. Perhaps, I was wrong about this all along. Oh well, you live and learn.
Anyway, and I didn't set out to achieve this, but the thread does seem to have generated a good exchange of views and has certainly pointed me in the direction of a couple of things to try. So maybe I should wait and see what happens when my ISP 'uncaps' my Upstream speed tomorrow. I'm not expecting it to change much at all, but time will tell.
Thanks for your input
TTFN
toulouse
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What's irritating is that the BTO guys quite obviously never checked the socket. I know you're pushed for time on jobs but that's no excuse when its such a quick check.
You're taking somebody's word for what has gone on, I work to facts. Either way, extention wiring is of no concern to BT Openreach, unless specifically instructed to, ie: The EU pays for us to work on it. The demarcation point is the Master Socket. Toulouse has obviously managed the dark art of plugging a phone in, to see if the socket is actually 'live'. Hardly a great irritation imo.
Then they shouldn't have told him the extension socket was disconnected on two occasions should they? No problem with them not testing, but saying it was disconnected when they never bothered checking is garbage - and indefensible, although you seem to want to try.
Anyway we'll see what we see, hopefully it will at least make the line stable which would be an improvement.
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Ok Black Sheep, thanks for clarifying that. I certainly don't want to get into any arguments over this thread, but I REALLY would like to know if there is anything else I can do to try and get a little more oomph, and a little less attenuation out of my Plusnet line, or at least get it on a par with the newly installed ( Jan 2011 ) O2 line.
Following my adventures yesterday the extension socket is, I think, no longer a part of the equation, at least it has been disconnected from the junction box type 'thingy'. The wiring is currently still in place but disconnected from the circuit.
As I'm not sure whether you have read this thread from the beginning, just a brief outline of the situation.
When I moved to my ground floor flat in 2007, there was a telephone line here which I think had been cut off because of non-payment by the previous owner. I had the line reactivated by BT, and during the first year or so I was happy with their service, but I went with Plusnet as my ISP. From day 1 that line connected at the full 8128/448, with Downstream Attenuation of 32dB, and I was a very happy bunny indeed. Over the course of time, I switched to an ADSL2+ product, having been assured by the ISP that I could expect to see speeds of Upto 14Mbps. This line has never achieved anywhere near that speed, the maximum being around the 12Mbps with Downstream Attenuation of initially something in the region of 35.0 / 35.5 / 36.0 as reported by my Netgear router. I'm fairly sure that this has varied as shown over a period of maybe 2-3 years and I'm not sure if it's particularly significant. I could probably find some recorded figures from the Speedtouch ST516 supplied by Plusnet, if required, but as far as I can recall they are pretty much the same.
However, the line which was '*** installed ***' by O2 (actually 2 BTO engineers came to my flat, installed a Linebox and tested the line) has performed consistently at in excess of 14Mbps, aside from one or maybe two external, and as far as I know completely unauthorised 'construction worker' customisations of the national telephony infrastructure. That is to say, and I'm sure you've seen a few of these in your time, they hit an underground telephone cable or put a spade or something through a cable which they shouldn't have done. I think the BT / ISP term for this type of occurrence is a Major Service Outage.
Note -> above '*** installed ***', an NTE/5 LInebox was fitted, but no new cable was fitted, at least not from the D.P. As a non-expert in the telephony arena, I was kind of expecting some new cabling - was I wrong to expect that ?
Anyway, I digress,.....
What I was hoping to achieve when I started this thread was to seek opinions from those people, like yourself, who frequent this excellent forum and are far more knowledgeable about this subject than I am. It was my view, that the 2 telephone lines which I currently have, and which both originate at my local telephone exchange, somehow arrive at the building in which I live, are connected to what I have since found out is called a Distribution Point, from where a cable enters my flat and provides me with two separate telephones, and two separate broadband services, in an ideal world ought to provide a similar if not identical service in terms of speed. Sadly, that just is not the case. Perhaps, I was wrong about this all along. Oh well, you live and learn.
Anyway, and I didn't set out to achieve this, but the thread does seem to have generated a good exchange of views and has certainly pointed me in the direction of a couple of things to try. So maybe I should wait and see what happens when my ISP 'uncaps' my Upstream speed tomorrow. I'm not expecting it to change much at all, but time will tell.
Thanks for your input
TTFN
toulouse
You wouldn't neccessarily see new wiring by having a 2nd line installed, Toulouse. There were obviously spare wires available for the engineers to use from your 1st line cabling, to 'bat the circuit' through. This is common practice.
My educated guess is that your 2 circuits are on different E-side (Exchange side) cables from 'Exchange to Cab'. One obviously has a lesser attenuation than the other. The D-side (Distribution side) cable from 'Cab to DP' is what it is, and no improvement can be made by swapping of pairs. 99% of the time this will be the case, as there will be only one cable from 'Cab to DP'. On rare occasions, we do have 2 different cables feeding a DP, but this is not 'The norm'.
Circuit routings are robotically made via a tool called 'ROSE'. There could be 5 different cables feeding your 'Cab', with a variety of differing attenuation readings. Because OR do not guarantee speeds, ROSE will just chose the next available E-side to give the engineer to connect to. If you are severly troubled by your speed difference of 2 Meg from your other circuit, then you can request a 'Line Plant Arrangement' from your ISP, whereby if there is a spare pair available on the best cable, we can transfer you on to it. Different ISP's look upon this differently, some will charge you, some wont. Also, there may not be any available capacity in the better cables !! So it then becomes a gamble.
IMO, 12 to 14 Meg wont make any real difference at all unless you are a family of 6 all using the Internet at the same time, or you download vasts ammounts of data. Hope this helps and isn't to much of an an irritation for rizla ?? ;) ;D
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The curious b*cat asks if a sequence of pictures could be made available, please?
(1) The DP.
(2) Where the solitary service cable enters the flat.
(3) The junction-box (with its cover removed).
(4) Each of the two NTE5/A (perhaps in one picture) showing how the cable from (3) arrives at each.
:)
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Hey Black Sheep, things are really now beginning to make some sense.
Your description of the possible routing from the exchange via multiple cables has made everything fall into place, and I'm left with the impression that I could carry on making changes to my internal wiring and it ain't gonna make the slightest difference whatsoever. The situation is completely outside of my control. But at least now, I have a better understanding of why this situation exists, so thanks for explaining.
I don't suppose anyone is too concerned, but if things don't get better tomorrow, then I'm likely gonna be an ex Plusnet customer.
toulouse
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Miaooooooooooow,
Yes, burakkucat, I think that could be arranged without too much trouble. Will tomorrow do ?
Miaoooooooow, purr, purr, purr
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My line has the same attenuation figure as yours of 36dB on ADSL2+ (it was 33 on ADSLmax)
Running at a 3db downsteam target SNR margin my sync speed is around 13300kbps.
That gives an IP setting of 11.7Mbps (88.3% of the sync speed).
So the maximum download speed I can ever achieve is probably 11.6Mbps - in practice it's around 11.1Mbps measured.
I know someone the the same/just over distance in the other direction from the same cabinet we are both supplied from.
Obviously they are on a different D side cable being on a different road and who knows what E-side cable they are on from the cabinet back to the exchange.
They have an attenuation of 38 and can only run at the higher target noise margin level: different cables, different noise, different routes...who knows. Their sync is around 10000 kbps. So their IP setting will be 8830kbps and achievable download probably only around 8.5Mbps at best.
So if you can achieve a measured download of 12Mbps from a line which returns a router calculated attenuation of 36Db - I'd say you are rather lucky.
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No, sorry for any confusion, but any reference to 12Mbps would be a 'connection' speed and not a measured 'throughput' speed.
I think the maximum I have seen on a measured 'throughput' speed test would be somewhere between 9.8Mbps and 10.1Mbps,
but not much above that.
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Yes, burakkucat, I think that could be arranged without too much trouble. Will tomorrow do ?
That would be just purrfect. Thank you. :)
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Ok, then - it's Monday morning and it's time for a quick update.
It looks as if at around 2:55 this morning my Upstream Attenuation was uncapped, and is now showing as 888. This appears to have had the effect of increasing both Down and Upstream speeds by a small amount. The annoying thing about these changes of speed, is that the line had become completely unusable, at least no access to any browser pages or email accounts. I wish I knew what caused this problem each time there is a change of speed / IP address, from which the only way to recover is a router reboot. Said operation carried out just before 6:00 this morning. The current stats from the router, some 4 hours after the reboot, are
Down Up
11641 Connection speed 888
36.0 Attenuation 17.2
4.1 Noise Margin 14.8
.....so as far as I can see this whole exercise has resulted in a minor change in connection speed, slightly higher than before. There has also been an approximate halving of the Upstream Noise Margin and roughly a doubling of the Upstream connection speed.
From this I conclude that I just ain't gonna get it much better than this which is a little disappointing.
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I recall that an upstream sync of 888 is the standard upstream interleaved uncapped sync speed figure on 21CN.
(interleaving can be applied quite separately and selectively on either/or downstream and upstream)
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It doesn't look "uncapped" to me. Looks like a load of INP applied to upstream.
He should get over 1.1Mbps even with some INP applied. The Be upstream will be fastpath, it always is unless the line is dreadful.
Were it me I'd ask for DLM to be reset/restarted, or a manual reconfigure on the line - assuming those are possible on 21CN?
Is the line any more stable?
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I apologise first hand if anyone has asked this question but is the router your using compatable with ADSL2+???? If it wasn't that most certainly would give you disconnections on your broadband. Although your router may not beable to sync past 8Mb if it was just ADSL compatable but stranger things have happened on ADSL services! Just food for thought really. Only thing i would suggest if at all possible is to get this into the test socket. Although you may not have internal wiring that doesn't mean to say you don't have a faulty NTE5 front faceplate that could be causing these problems.
Gary
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Thanks for the further input, but I think there's no more to be got from this line. It was very good on ADSLMax, but it's CARP for the current ADSL2+ product. Whether that is caused by the line or the ADSL2+ product I wouldn't like to hazard a guess. But with all this talk of DLM (that dark mysterious Black Box) that seems to have limitless powers to screw up an end users broadband experience, probably the best I can do is to stop using that line and stick with the O2 LLU line instead.
@coolsnakeman - yes, of course the router is compatible with ADSL2+, it's a Netgear 834G v4, and I have it set to adsl2+ under Dsl Mode, under ADSL Settings. I'd have to be a bit of a numpty to start this thread if I hadn't done most of the obvious things and then ask for peoples views on this situation, wouldn't I ? As for the test socket, been there, done that, seen the video and I've got the t-shirt in all the available colours.
@rizla - I'm inclined to agree with you about the upstream rate, my O2 Upstream rate is currently at 1256kbps, but I think the default upstream rate on Plusnet is 888. You can request them to crank it up a bit, but as I said before I don't need more Upstream, but I could definitely do with a bit more on the Downstream. It seems to me that this just ain't gonna happen - I have a line which is not performing as I was told it was going to (even after tidying up my internal wiring), so I feel totally justified in cancelling the Plusnet services. I suppose I could ask them to put line into training again, and see what happens, but I think I'd just be delaying the inevitable.
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The capped upstream on Plusnet is around 443 or 440kbps sync
If they uncap it - it is 888kbps fixed interleaved
If the DLM switches off interleaving upstream it's whatever the target upstream SNR margin of 6 on the line will give - usually around 1000kbps.
I've had all three setting as above on my line.
Originally fixed at 888kbps always at an interleaver depth of 8.
The the DLM changed D from 8 to 4 and the sync ran free at whatever SNR it found - in my case around 1181kbps
Then during a mega fault the upstream was capped and its now at 440 at D=8 ie capped interleaved
Havent yet got round to ask PN for it to be uncapped again.................
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@coolsnakeman - yes, of course the router is compatible with ADSL2+, it's a Netgear 834G v4, and I have it set to adsl2+ under Dsl Mode, under ADSL Settings. I'd have to be a bit of a numpty to start this thread if I hadn't done most of the obvious things and then ask for peoples views on this situation, wouldn't I ? As for the test socket, been there, done that, seen the video and I've got the t-shirt in all the available colours.
Some of the basics are usually the most common to be missed so that is why i make it a point to suggesting them. I have spoken to microsoft and cisco certified engineers who still can't get it right and tend to miss some of the most obvious causes of the problem. Only reason being is they get to smug and dive in with all there technical knowledge but seem to forget that troubleshooting is like climbing a ladder. So you can imagine how stupid they feel when i ask them to change the filter and it works. Anyhow it is fairly clear to me that you have your sights set on this issue not being resolved so good luck with cancelling with plusnet cause the next step would be fighting with them not to charge you early cancellation fees if you still in contract. Off course if your out of contract then that part should be easy enough ;D
Gary
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gary's mention of adsl2+ router had just made me think of something.
You mention that the line performed well on adsl1 but not adsl2+... so something you could perhaps try as an experiment and thats using adsl2.
On some lines adsl2 works better since it uses the better algorithms and modulation of adsl 2+ but without opening up the addional frequencies which can cause instability for longer lines. Ideally looking at an DMT graph to see which tones you currently use would be a useful before performing this step to view how many of the adsl2+ tones you currently use. Since you dont seem to be hitting 12Mbps, then yours could be an ideal line to play with adsl2 mode and youve nothing much to lose anyhow if that lines going to be got rid of.
Like I say its just an experimental thing that may or may not work, but it does seem to benefit some lines which sync at <12Mbps. I cant recall off the top of my head if the the dg834v4 has the option to change the setting yourself in the GUI, but I think it may.
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gary's mention of adsl2+ router had just made me think of something.
So there you have every suggestion brings a new idea :lol:
Gary
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@kitz & @coolsnakeman - I guess what I have been trying to establish since starting this thread is whether a line like mine, i.e. 36dB attenuation should be able to sync and remain relatively stable at the rate that Plusnet told me I could expect in their email of a couple of years ago. They told me Up to 14Mbps, but the line has never achieved anywhere near that, it's currently struggling to get to 12Mbps, let alone 14Mbps.
I would be quite happy to try selecting ADSL2 in ADSL settings, as opposed to Auto or ADSL2+ which is currently selected, just to see what happens. Just out of interest, how might that affect the achievable sync speed ? It looks as if my Plusnet profile is hard coded at 11; now whether that is down to recent intervention by Plusnet support or the STUPID DLM system I don't know - prior to the most recent problem with the line, the profile seemed to be stuck at 10 (or some strange variation of that) for months at a time. This is also quite different from 14Mbps, isn't it.
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They told me Up to 14Mbps
It seems to me plusnet have there backs covered then if they told you "up to 14Mbps" so 11Mb or 12Mb to them is perfectly fine. I would of thought however that on a 36db line attenuation you may have been able to achieve more but that is all down to certain factors that i am sure both me and you know what those factors are.
Gary
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>>> Just out of interest, how might that affect the achievable sync speed ?
Would need to see a DMT graph to see which bits are loaded in what bins to get a better idea... and of course its something that no-one can really predict, but on some lines adsl2 is more stable because its takes out the higher frequencies where most instability occurs. If you currently have a lot of bits loaded above tone 255 then its probably not for you as you may likely end up losing some sync speed. :/
A bit loading graph either from DMTtool or Routerstats should give us a fair idea though.
>> It looks as if my Plusnet profile is hard coded at 11;
It wont affect your max throughput then, but results may be seen in the sync speed but it may help stability.
Because you already sync at 11Mbps, your line is 'borderline' as to whether or not it could benefit in adsl2 mode and its just an experiment.
I guess you could look at it 2 ways:- either (1)that line is going to go anyhow so Im not bothered about messing around an leave it until it goes, or (2) that line is going to go anyhow, so Im not bothered if I do mess things further, but at least I tried.
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From what I recall of the DG834G, one can select Auto, ADSL2+ or G.DMT but not ADSL2. :(
Hence I was very pleased to see that when I changed to a 2Wire 2700HG, it automatically selected ADSL2 as most appropriate for my line.
Next week, i plan to perform some experiments with a Huawei HG612 as that device can be set to use G.DMT, ADSL2, ADSL2+ and VDSL2 to name but four modes . . . :)
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Ok, I've just selected ADSL2 under DSL Type under ADSL Settings on my Netgear DG834G v4, followed by a router reboot. That gave me a sync of 8407 kbps on completion, which is really going in the wrong direction as far as I can see. I have now reselected ADSL2+ and now have a sync of 11378, down from earlier today, as I was connected at 11641 before trying these changes.
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Would you be willing to run the risk of an engineer visit from plusnet. At least that way you can show him the speed difference between the 02 connection and your plusnet connection and get a straight answer from him. If your planning on getting rid of the plusnet then i guess there ain't much point in that.
Gary
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I'm not reading the whole thread again, so apologies if this has been brought up before, but from my experience the estimations the ISP's give (ie: up to 'x' Meg), tend to be based on other circuits in the local area if they're OLO's, or on the actual feeding DP if they're BT lines.
I agree with Gary (Coolsnakeman), either give it up as a bad job, or get an engineering visit built so real-time comparisons of the 2 circuits can be done. I'm hopeful this will show there to be a difference of E-side routings between the 2, and that the engineer would find a 'spare' to transfer you on to ?.
Anything else other than taking this action, is fruitless and just going round in circles. :)
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Thanks to both Black Sheep, coolsnakeman and everyone else who has added their input to this thread.
I now conclude, that there are 2 possible ways to go, only one of which gives me a definite predefined outcome. So I'm gonna cancel the Plusnet services (phone and broadband), and carry on plodding along at a little under 15Mbps on the O2 line, and forget about the rest of it. I hope you will all understand my reasons for taking this action and hope that none of you think that I have been wasting all of your time with this thread.
It has been an interesting thread for me, so thanks again to all who have commented.
TTFN
toulouse
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Thanks for the thanks, Toulouse. No worries at all mate. ;D
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It has been interesting to read -- a real-life experience, clearly explained. The closest I can get to being an SFI-cat. :D
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YW toulouse, sorry we werent able to get to the bottom of it..
but I think in your position, I would do exactly the same thing as you intend.
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Good choice to make and no time wasted here i enjoyed reading the thread as all threads do come as educational to me. This forum has actually helped me out in my day to day job with the knowledge of all the engineers and others on here. I am just wondering when 02 are going to get the figure out and actually start rolling out packages for FTTC they seem to be falling behind from all the other service providers.
Gary
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A quick update, following somebody mentioning website 'fttc-check.alc.im'.
I put my postcode into that website yesterday, and it tells me that there is a 64% probability that my lines are served by one of 2 local street cabinets, and a 36% probability that they are served by the other one. I wonder therefore if this could account for the difference between the 2 lines attenuation. That is to say that my O2 line comes from the nearest one, and the Plusnet line comes from the other one. One of the cabinets is approximately 100 metres from my building in a straight line, while the other is probably more than 500 metres away and takes a more roundabout route. I actually walked down to town yesterday and was able to see both cabinets on my travels.
I suppose to be absolutely sure, I would need to either request an engineering visit as suggested by ?Black Sheep? , or is there perhaps some way of looking up details of which line is fed from which street cabinet from some BT database ?
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I would think its unlikely that one pair in your drop cable goes to one cabinet and the other to another.
Stranger things have happened but I'd have thought it'd be E-side rather than D-side where the routing differs.