Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Bald_Eagle1 on June 04, 2012, 12:05:18 AM
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It looks like FTTc self-install may be on its way soon.
For more detail Click Here (http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga00912.do)
FWIW, my own very brief testing has shown that an ADSL "dangly" filter plugged into the test socket (VDSL2 SSFP removed) allows a reasonable VDSL2 connection when the BT Openreach supplied SSFP is "broken".
However, in comparison to a brand new replacement BT Openreach SSFP, the same "dangly" filter demonstrated an immediate & sustained drop in SNRM levels.
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When it becomes an actual reality, rather than a trial, I may just consider a VDSL2 based FTTC service.
As you know, I like to be in charge of things installed within "The Cattery". :)
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What CPs need to do next:
Review and sign the Trial Ts & Cs if you intend to participate
Match your prospective trialist list to the exchanges that are part of the trial and get your matched list of prospective triallists to Openreach by 30th May 2012
Get involved in the regular calls run by the trial project team to get up to speed with the latest information about the trial – contact your Sales and Relationship Manager for details.
A bit late in the day don't you think? :)
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Why do BT even think people need to install microfilters? The SSFP is so easy to install anyway, it was designed for self-install from the start.
I understand for older people, but would they really be getting FTTC?
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I understand for older people, but would they really be getting FTTC?
Hmmm......
Define "older" ;) :oldman:
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I understand for older people, but would they really be getting FTTC?
Hmmm......
Define "older" ;) :oldman:
70 year olds plus.
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I think you're on slightly weak ground there... :oldman:
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I think you're on slightly weak ground there... :oldman:
Fair enough :).
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Why do BT even think people need to install microfilters? The SSFP is so easy to install anyway, it was designed for self-install from the start.
I understand for older people, but would they really be getting FTTC?
The issue in fitting the original SSFP's (NTE2000), was the terminating of any extention wiring. With the newer ones, the existing NTE frontplate can still be used, ensuring no wiring needs to be disconnected.
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Why do BT even think people need to install microfilters? The SSFP is so easy to install anyway, it was designed for self-install from the start.
I understand for older people, but would they really be getting FTTC?
exactly - it could be shipped with the router and a "how to" picture guide... BUT, theres always those that dont have an NTE-5 such as new builds (XNTE) and old builds (LJU) and therefore a technician must install an NTE5 + SSFP on the circuit near the entry point of the drop wire (or cable coming in from the XNTE) ...
I think it will be a failed trial - too many people with bad internal wiring and/or using the router on the 5th extension box upstairs and/or with other extension sockets unfiltered with devices on such as phones and sky multi-room boxes - this will raise customer 'churn' when end users are getting sub optimal FTTC speeds - Ideally self install filters should only be sent out to those that have only 1 master socket and thats it! ...bridged taps (http://www.aflglobal.com/productlist/Product-Lines/Optical-Connectivity---Apparatus/LMS-LMK-ADSL2-VDSL2-Splitter/doc/VDSL2-POTS-Splitter-whitepaper.aspx) anyone??
Bridge (Bridged) Tap
A bridge tap is an unterminated branch in a cable, or any branch on a pair that is not a direct connection between the Line and the subscriber.
Any signal transmitted on the main copper pair will also travel down the bridge tap. Open end of the bridge tap (or high impedance when
filter is installed) will result of the signal being reflected back towards the main copper pair. In the voice band this reflection will result in echo;
in the DSL band it will lower attainable data rates.
In the case of longer bridge taps (20- 40 ft) very drastic changes in data rates will occur due to significant changes in insertion loss and impedance.
in laymans terms (for those unaware) - having your filter and modem on first socket in your home but the signal travels down to all other 'extension' sockets and reflects back into the modem, this can degrade VDSL signal drastically - ADSL signal not as much but can impact it, this is why its best terminating the xDSL signal at the master socket with an SSFP rather than a dongle filter (which does not terminate it at master socket)
VDSL2 + SELF INSTALL DONGLE FILTERS = BAD IDEA!!!
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I think the trial will be successful as I believe it will be using around 300 ISP staff who probably already know how to optimise their broadband connections anyway.
So, it will then be rolled out to us Numpty users who will obviously fail to get things working correctly as we have real things like phone extensions & Sky boxes connected via the faceplate (before the dangly filter).
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I think the trial will be successful as I believe it will be using around 300 ISP staff who probably already know how to optimise their broadband connections anyway.
i see what u mean - that most of the "triallers" will be internal staff? making it an "unfair" prediction of what will happen in real world situation?
So, it will then be rolled out to us Numpty users who will obviously fail to get things working correctly as we have real things like phone extensions & Sky boxes connected via the faceplate (before the dangly filter).
exactly... so it will be a FAILED trial in that it did not reflect what would happen... this is why BTo send engineers out in first place, to make 100% sure the modem and pair are isolated from any other run of cable and devices, because VDSL2 is super sensitive to bridge taps and iffy wiring due to the weaker (attenuating) higher frequencies used.
what they should do is only send them out too customers who have an NTE-5, and they should send an SSFP with instructions and not a dangly filter - all other customers require visit
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Oh I really hope they don't do self install. You just have to look at Digital Region to see what a huge balls up that becomes. Me and many other people who have the service had major issues getting connected due to the lack of an engineer visiting the house.
Nothing to do with us not knowing what to do (I already have an NTE2005 installed) but simply down to the fact Openreach have incorrect documentation for which D side is connected to which property, so they frequently jumper the wrong line to the wrong house. On Infinity this is not a problem as the engineer visits the house, finds no dial tone and sticks a tone generator on so he can trace it back at the cabinet.
On Digital Region, Openreach jumper at the cabinet then go home. The customer is left wondering where the dial tone has gone and in my case I was left from Wednesday morning until Monday before Openreach would even admit there was a problem.
Granted its worse because they just blame the Digital Region cabinet, despite the fact I knew that was jumpered perfectly as calling my land line was ringing in someone elses house. But still its asking for a lot more problems.
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exactly - it could be shipped with the router and a "how to" picture guide... BUT, theres always those that dont have an NTE-5 such as new builds (XNTE) and old builds (LJU) and therefore a technician must install an NTE5 + SSFP on the circuit near the entry point of the drop wire (or cable coming in from the XNTE) ...
I think it will be a failed trial - too many people with bad internal wiring and/or using the router on the 5th extension box upstairs and/or with other extension sockets unfiltered with devices on such as phones and sky multi-room boxes - this will raise customer 'churn' when end users are getting sub optimal FTTC speeds - Ideally self install filters should only be sent out to those that have only 1 master socket and thats it! ...bridged taps (http://www.aflglobal.com/productlist/Product-Lines/Optical-Connectivity---Apparatus/LMS-LMK-ADSL2-VDSL2-Splitter/doc/VDSL2-POTS-Splitter-whitepaper.aspx) anyone??
Bridge (Bridged) Tap
A bridge tap is an unterminated branch in a cable, or any branch on a pair that is not a direct connection between the Line and the subscriber.
Any signal transmitted on the main copper pair will also travel down the bridge tap. Open end of the bridge tap (or high impedance when
filter is installed) will result of the signal being reflected back towards the main copper pair. In the voice band this reflection will result in echo;
in the DSL band it will lower attainable data rates.
In the case of longer bridge taps (20- 40 ft) very drastic changes in data rates will occur due to significant changes in insertion loss and impedance.
in laymans terms (for those unaware) - having your filter and modem on first socket in your home but the signal travels down to all other 'extension' sockets and reflects back into the modem, this can degrade VDSL signal drastically - ADSL signal not as much but can impact it, this is why its best terminating the xDSL signal at the master socket with an SSFP rather than a dongle filter (which does not terminate it at master socket)
VDSL2 + SELF INSTALL DONGLE FILTERS = BAD IDEA!!!
Don't agree Snadge. Pretty much most of your arguments could also be applied to ADSL, which, if I remember correctly was offered as self install or engineer install if you didn't feel up to it !! It might even have been engineer only originally (it's been a long time and BE's memory isn't what it used to be !!).
Anyways, I think self-install is a good idea. There was absolutely no reason that I needed an engineer to get VDSL2 going, other than putting some more money into BTOR's pocket.
Being brutally honest, only the more tech savvy and 'clued up' customers would know if they were receiving sub-optimal speeds and these are the same people that will already know how to optimise their connections. The rest of 'joe public' will just know its faster than their old conection and most likely, be happy with that. If you don't agree, look at your neighbour whose connection you 'broke'. Perfectly happy until you brought to his attention that it should be a lot better. Most users on VDSL2 will be exactly the same. What you don't know....etc etc ;)
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Don't agree Snadge. Pretty much most of your arguments could also be applied to ADSL, which, if I remember correctly was offered as self install or engineer install if you didn't feel up to it !! It might even have been engineer only originally (it's been a long time and BE's memory isn't what it used to be !!).
You're correct and at one point you could only use one router! It took a year or two to become self-install but an engineer install was still offered until a couple of years ago. It might even still be available if one requests it.
I think there should be the option for self-install, but I think an engineer install should also be available.
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Oh I really hope they don't do self install. You just have to look at Digital Region to see what a huge balls up that becomes. Me and many other people who have the service had major issues getting connected due to the lack of an engineer visiting the house.
Nothing to do with us not knowing what to do (I already have an NTE2005 installed) but simply down to the fact Openreach have incorrect documentation for which D side is connected to which property, so they frequently jumper the wrong line to the wrong house. On Infinity this is not a problem as the engineer visits the house, finds no dial tone and sticks a tone generator on so he can trace it back at the cabinet.
On Digital Region, Openreach jumper at the cabinet then go home. The customer is left wondering where the dial tone has gone and in my case I was left from Wednesday morning until Monday before Openreach would even admit there was a problem.
Granted its worse because they just blame the Digital Region cabinet, despite the fact I knew that was jumpered perfectly as calling my land line was ringing in someone elses house. But still its asking for a lot more problems.
Hang on, I thought Digital Region had nothing to do with BT, or OpenReach for the matter. Do Digital Region not have their own engineers as it not a BT provided service, or so I thought?
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Digital Region operates similarly to the Openreach GEA/NGA FTTC model. They plant one of their FTTC cabinets in close proximity to an existing Openreach PCP and request that Openreach provide the tie cables between the two cabinets. When the time comes that a subscriber migrates to the Digital Region service, Openreach are required to disconnect the subscriber within their PCP and jumper it through to the Digital Region FTTC.
I cannot help but think about the Teletubbies "Messes and Muddles"! ::)
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exactly - it could be shipped with the router and a "how to" picture guide... BUT, theres always those that dont have an NTE-5 such as new builds (XNTE) and old builds (LJU) and therefore a technician must install an NTE5 + SSFP on the circuit near the entry point of the drop wire (or cable coming in from the XNTE) ...
I think it will be a failed trial - too many people with bad internal wiring and/or using the router on the 5th extension box upstairs and/or with other extension sockets unfiltered with devices on such as phones and sky multi-room boxes - this will raise customer 'churn' when end users are getting sub optimal FTTC speeds - Ideally self install filters should only be sent out to those that have only 1 master socket and thats it! ...bridged taps (http://www.aflglobal.com/productlist/Product-Lines/Optical-Connectivity---Apparatus/LMS-LMK-ADSL2-VDSL2-Splitter/doc/VDSL2-POTS-Splitter-whitepaper.aspx) anyone??
Bridge (Bridged) Tap
A bridge tap is an unterminated branch in a cable, or any branch on a pair that is not a direct connection between the Line and the subscriber.
Any signal transmitted on the main copper pair will also travel down the bridge tap. Open end of the bridge tap (or high impedance when
filter is installed) will result of the signal being reflected back towards the main copper pair. In the voice band this reflection will result in echo;
in the DSL band it will lower attainable data rates.
In the case of longer bridge taps (20- 40 ft) very drastic changes in data rates will occur due to significant changes in insertion loss and impedance.
in laymans terms (for those unaware) - having your filter and modem on first socket in your home but the signal travels down to all other 'extension' sockets and reflects back into the modem, this can degrade VDSL signal drastically - ADSL signal not as much but can impact it, this is why its best terminating the xDSL signal at the master socket with an SSFP rather than a dongle filter (which does not terminate it at master socket)
VDSL2 + SELF INSTALL DONGLE FILTERS = BAD IDEA!!!
Don't agree Snadge. Pretty much most of your arguments could also be applied to ADSL, which, if I remember correctly was offered as self install or engineer install if you didn't feel up to it !! It might even have been engineer only originally (it's been a long time and BE's memory isn't what it used to be !!).
Anyways, I think self-install is a good idea. There was absolutely no reason that I needed an engineer to get VDSL2 going, other than putting some more money into BTOR's pocket.
Being brutally honest, only the more tech savvy and 'clued up' customers would know if they were receiving sub-optimal speeds and these are the same people that will already know how to optimise their connections. The rest of 'joe public' will just know its faster than their old conection and most likely, be happy with that. If you don't agree, look at your neighbour whose connection you 'broke'. Perfectly happy until you brought to his attention that it should be a lot better. Most users on VDSL2 will be exactly the same. What you don't know....etc etc ;)
fair enough, all im saying is VDSL2 is highly affected by bridged taps and poor wiring (more so than ADSL) and (I think) thats why it required a visit in first place.. otherwise they would have just sent dongly filters out from day 1, also when people are upgrading to fibre they do so to get 'faster speeds' so the first thing they are likely to do is 'check' it on speedtest.net , there are many 'inbetween' users (more than tech savvy) who dont know how to make sure its optimal or how it works BUT knows how to use a webiste to check to see if they are getting 40Mbps or 80Mbps...and when they are not, customer churn will increase when they start calling their ISPs to tell them they are getting 15Mbps and its all down to internal wiring/conditions and setup - ADSL1/2/2+ while also affected by same conditions is not as sesitive as VDSL2 and seeing as VDSL2 is sold as a superfast fibre broadband package then its best to make sure its exactly that, BT know that internal wiring can severely degrade a VDSL2 signal, whereas with ADSL it can have some impact but not as much as it can with VDSL2
I suppose what I mean is its a bad idea for ISPs if they want to keep churn down, maybe if they send out a booklet or paper with the dongle explaining how wiring setups can affect speeds, so if the user does get less speeds he can determine if his internal wiring MAY be a cause because he/she has been pre-educated.
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Blackeagle is correct. The very high percentage of EU's aren't interested in the 'ins and outs' of VDSL signalling. All they want is for BT Vision to work, Little Johnny able to 'host' an on-line game, and Mum and Dad to be able to stream ITV on-line, to be able to catch up on Coronation Street.