Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: snadge on May 23, 2012, 10:38:20 PM
-
just been on the phone to Liam at Sky Network Services, these are the engineers that deal with the core network (not exchange engineers) , was on phone for 50 mins, he agree's we have a problem, explained everything to him
he disagree's that it's anything to do with SVBN , fair enough, I can only make decisions with what evidence I have got.
anyway, he said he is going to run a report back to Stanley (the guy who called me from escelations few weeks back) and he thinks they will be booking one of sky's specialist broadband/network engineers, theres only 10 in the whole country he said...lol so wont be anytime soon, but also book a BT Broadband Engineer for same day so sky engineer can shadow him at the exchange or patch points (basically so they can get full access, as BT Broadband Engineer has full access to everything)
I have to say I was impressed, although, I am certain that the cause is a 2nd noise source eating into the frequencies and the higher the frequency the more it eats into it, he didnt seem to concerned about that though which left me a little dis-heartened, I said Im sure that when the problem is located and removed that will right itself anyway, I think this 2nd noise source is making the AM Radio Mast spikes more prominent and making it look like they are the culprit, I know this because all my neighbours are affected by these but they barely make any impact on their SNR , I had them when I was with o2, but didnt stop me from getting a 19Mb sync! as you can guess he was more concerned about the AM Radio Masts noise , I told him that it may be the Junction Box on the end and he agreed..
A way to explain it would be, its like there is interference weaking my signal which allows the AM Radio Masts eat further into it, but that source of noise is also eating into my signal, probably more than the masts!! I will show them my graphs ..see below
so he gunna run some tests and do up a report with suggestion of getting a special sky network engineer out with a BT LL14 Broadband Engineer out too try and locate the problem and Stanley (the escalations guy) will ring me tonight or over the weekend.
edit: i forgot too tell him about:
1. upstream attenuation fluctuates
2. speed went up to 13.5Mb after A) line install and B) once during heavy rain but went back down A) after using phone and B) rain stopped
:)
example BEFORE @ 17-18Mb: <----------------------------> AFTER @9-11Mb
see how the slope is steeper as you go up the frequencies!!
and you have AM Masts Noise (those two major spikes) & some other form of noise
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FarJAc.png&hash=cbcfe1c92d4fb3b3bd677546f288d9256ae368c4)(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fi0efk.png&hash=a36291de5ed704de6b8935a880049cd2c405573a)
-
1st graph looks normalish for a line with a small amount of AM radio mast interference -
Its hard to say exactly from the graph, but it doesnt look like its costing you much speed probably <100kbps. If it wasnt for those 3 tiny blips then the line would be good.
2nd graph.. lots of EMI from an additional source.
>>> but that source of noise is also eating into my signal, probably more than the masts!!
Much more... its affecting bit loading across all the subchannels, which is why your speed is so much less.
-
1st graph looks normalish for a line with a small amount of AM radio mast interference -
Its hard to say exactly from the graph, but it doesnt look like its costing you much speed probably <100kbps. If it wasnt for those 3 tiny blips then the line would be good.
2nd graph.. lots of EMI from an additional source.
>>> but that source of noise is also eating into my signal, probably more than the masts!!
Much more... its affecting bit loading across all the subchannels, which is why your speed is so much less.
yup, which is what I tried to put across to the engineer, but he said he wasnt too concerned with that and was more concerned about the radio Masts noise, we did agree that once problem is removed it will all be righted anyway - so I emailed thos graphs to sky asking them to pass them on as it was urgent, I hope he gets them so he can see what I mean - I dont know what he was looking at or how its mapped out too him, he had to keep generating maps just for certain parts of the spectrum...it didnt seem like he was looking at the entire spectrum, he kept saying "just a second while I map it out" and it really seemed liek he was generatin map/graph of ranges of tones (that he probably input)
anyway - I hope het gets those pictures, he will see why I think its something esle and NOT the radio masts - he thinks its the radio masts, he even talked about RF3 filters but I dont think thats gunna work, he said he is trying to avoud that - he then said there has been lots of impulse noise on my line too... he wants the engineers to start at the JB on the end, I told him I had my suspisions about that BUT one neighbour on BT is not affected, and the fact it happens the very second we were switched to SVBN seems to point to the exchange...but he was adamant the hardware was not a problem... we'll see...
-
>>> but he said he wasnt too concerned with that and was more concerned about the radio Masts noise,
But from the first graph the radio mast noise isnt the problem.. thats not what is costing you your speed. Its what ever is chipping away at all the other sub-channels too that is the problem. I just hope for your sake he doesnt get too focussed on those particular channels without looking at the broader spectrum (sorry pun intended).
>>> he even talked about RF3 filters
RF3 filters block out frequencies outside the adsl range.. so unsure if this will be a solution for your problem. Perhaps someone with more knowledge in this area can comment more on this topic.
-
Ive heard RF3 filter may cause more problems than resolving them,
i just had a nice call from Stanley @ Escalations, he is actually part of the CEO's office as he received my complaint there, he is dealing with it all now and he will be my go-between to Liam the engineer - I told him my concerns about what ive just discussed above, so he asked me to send the graphs to him via email (to the CEO's office lol) and he will forward them to Liam... :)
so ive sent those graphs and my theorys about it being other noise making the masts be able to seep further in because its weakened, rather than the actual masts noise itself beign the cause... hopefull when he looks at the graphs he will say to himself ".......ahh!" hehe
I also told him what I forgot to tell him about the speed increase to 13.5Mb when
A) it rained heavily for 12 hours during the middle of the night, dropped back down when dried up
B) same thing happened after new line from JB was installed, up to 13.7Mb, but soon as she used the phone 1 hour later and I rebooted the router it went back down to 11Mb (I was rebooting a fwe times before she used the phone and it stayed there as I was testing SNRM reductions too see what I could get, I could get 16Mb on 3.5db and would have been happy with that even...
so , he said Liam wants to run tests over few days before deciding fully on these engineer visits, BUT, its looking like thats whats going to happen, Stanley told me he has dealt with him before and he is very good and he is confident that its going to be repaired :) which, if these special engineers come out and stick at it, theres no reason it cant be resolved, all they need to do is check the SNR spectrum at each point to help locate it, and im sure they must have some EMI/RFI detection kit... easy job!!!
I should work for sky hahaha I wish!!
-
>> Ive heard RF3 filter may cause more problems than resolving them,
Yes me too :(
IIRC Azzaka from Zen had an RF3 (not to be confused with RF2) filter on his line a few years back which were used on some lines in his local area because of radio interference. I dont think he had any particular problems with his other than a reduction in attainable sync speed.
I really hope that all goes well for you now.. and that finally someone at sky seems to be taking proper notice. :)
Good luck :fingers:
-
thanks Kitz... :)
I hope so too... I really like sky and WANT to stay with them... :fingers: :fingers: :fingers:
-
With reference to an RF3 a certain naughty-cat installed one in the line at The Cattery, last year. :blush:
See --
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9440.msg192760.html#msg192760
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9680.msg195687.html#msg195687
-
With reference to an RF3 a certain naughty-cat installed one in the line at The Cattery, last year. :blush:
See --
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9440.msg192760.html#msg192760
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9680.msg195687.html#msg195687
thanks B'Kat - Iam wanting to avoid this is possible, I cant forsee an RF3 completely resolving my issue - if Stanley calls saying thats what he wants to do now instead of bringing someone out I will agree (as I have too) but I will express that Iam not happy about it...but will give it a go
I read your posts, you mention it was just your throughput that was better? was there any changes in sync rate? how much?
mine is so badly affected i THINK its beyond the scope of an RF3 filter, not sure how they work but surely it would have some impact on the DSL signal as a whole (may make it a little better, but not much)
thanks for posting your experience
-
Snadge,
At the time when that RF3 was installed in my line, I was not monitoring the status as comprehensively as I do now. Back then I was using a Netgear DG834Gv5 (with a Conexent chip set) and not the 2Wire 2700HG which is now my device of choice.
To have achieved an N% increase in throughput, I must have also achieved an N% increase in sync speed (at a minimum).
As to whether an RF3 will help, the surest way will be just to test. :)
-
Snadge,
At the time when that RF3 was installed in my line, I was not monitoring the status as comprehensively as I do now. Back then I was using a Netgear DG834Gv5 (with a Conexent chip set) and not the 2Wire 2700HG which is now my device of choice.
To have achieved an N% increase in throughput, I must have also achieved an N% increase in sync speed (at a minimum).
As to whether an RF3 will help, the surest way will be just to test. :)
Iam worried that they will stick that on, get small increase and try to fob me off with that - as soon as he said "RF3 filter, but trying to avoid that" my heart sunk! :(
UPDATE:
the SNS (Sky Network Services) Engineer called before – he said he had been getting my emails with my graphs, he said that he would like to get another BT Broadband Engineer out on his own (without sky engineer) because the last one didnt do the job and if they got a Sky Engineer out and the problem turned out to be on BT’s loop then they would be charging BT for the call out, and this happens a lot of the time he says, he reckons if it does happen then when BT get the bill they could and probably would say that they refuse to pay because they weren't given a chance to fix it, if the 1st broadband engineer couldnt stay to do it then you should have told us and we would have arranged another...
so... to make sure that doesnt happen, he wants to get another broadband engineer out and if he is unsuccessful they will get a Sky Engineer out with a BT Engineer.
its been arranged for next Friday afternoon, the engineer I spoke to on the phone (Liam) has taken my mobile number so he can call me directly on the day so he can talk to the BT engineer, so the BT engineer doesnt have to go through the “co-op” system which can cause problems ... he said he may give you some rubbish like “iam not allowed to speak to him” but he can...so this should be interesting...
-
If Sky haven't requested a co-op call, then the engineer doesn't have to speak with the ISP. On every single BB job, there is a certain line that very simply states 'Co-op call required'. It's either set to a 'Y' flag, or an 'N'. I won't insult your intelligence explaining what the letters indicate. ;) :)
As an aside, if the flag is set to 'Y' and we dont make the co-op call, we lose the entire call-out fee.
Just thought it worth a mention, might be best to give Liam a ring back and insist on a co-op call.
-
hi BS - I may be wrong but I THINK it IS on a CO-OP job... but Liam said something about it can be difficult getting through to the BT Engineer because of the call center or something, or he has to explain things to someone at a call-center who then has to relay it back to the BT engineer...I wasnt sure but he did say it would make life easier if he could just take my mobile so he can call him directly and thus removing the 3rd party call center or such... but as you say, if theres a chance the BT Engineer may say that he doesnt want to speak to him then theres a chance it may not be a co-op, I dont have Liam's number but I could contact the escelations rep who is monitoring it all - at end of day its his fault if the BT Engineer refuses to speak because its a non-co-op job then thats a big mistake by the sky engineer for not making it a co-op job... but I think it will be, he may have suggested he may refuse to because it simply isnt going through the proper channel of communication
...watch this space...lol
-
well today went quite badly :(
- around 3:40pm the sky engineer called to give me a "heads up" (warning) about the BT Broadband Engineer saying he already spoke to him and been arguing with him on the phone, I asked what was up? and he said he was giving him the old "we dont guarantee speeds over the network / what he is getting is good for his area" shebang - but he told him I have had 18Mb for years and now have 10-11Mb because of noise/interference on the line, explained the whole thing - he said he was very argumentative and dismissive about it all and had a bit of an attitude, so he called me to let me know so that if he refuses to do anything or fobs me off that I was just to keep calm and let him get on with it and they will get a sky engineer out with another BT engineer later... oh dear I thought!!
20 minutes later he arrived and he had a right chip on his shoulder and a stinking attitude problem, he was very condesending and rude, I dont want anyone to think that Iam slagging off ALL BT OR Broadband Engineers here mind...because Iam not, just this one... so if any BTo staff are reading this please dont hate me :(
anyway,I was glad the sky engineer warned me, our lass couldnt believe his attitude like..and she was only there about 50% of the time, I showed him my graphs etc but he just kept shrugging his shoulders and shaking his head, I mentioned the fluctuating upstream attenuation and he replied with "it always goes up & down, what is it 1.3Mb?" ...lol... I said "no, this is the attenuation, it should be a static figure so it indicates a physical problem somewhere.." his reply was "pffft!!! you know more than me mate..!!" ...
Again he went on about my connection being fine and they dont guarantee speed etc etc blah blah..., he just didnt want to do it! , so I said to him I can understand that you dont guarantee speed from a wholesale point of view, but when the customer has had 18Mb for years previous and a fault has caused the connection to drop to 11Mb and sky are paying BT for someone to come out too fix it...why cant they do that or even try?, I cant see what the problem is? - his reply was "well... we may never get your speed back...thats what the problem is?"...with a assertive look on his face , after that I just gave up all hope.
he proceeded to test in the phone port of my filtered faceplate, I asked him if he wanted me to remove it..he said "why?" .. I said "because its a filtered faceplate and thats the phone port, it will filter the broadband out" - he said "I know its a filtered faceplate" with smirk on his face and then he shook his head, he then unplugged the JDSU and got a posi driver and removed it himself...
he tested the ADSL on the JDSU and said "see? your lines clean.." and he started to shove stuff back in his bag.. he showed me the result, it said 11Mbps 100% capacity - I told him they all said that on previous visits because thats the sync rate inclusive of the noise on the line... he sorta huffed & sighed, I could tell he was miffed and letting me know about it - so he said I will test the pair, I said it will probably pass cos all other engineers pair quality tests did... he said quietly under his breath "well there no noise on your line then is there"... he knew I had to be nicey nicey and took full advantage of it, think he was looking for excuse to fall out and leave, Im starting too wonder if my case if hot topic in the local BTo bait cabin at lunch times...lol.. slagging me off and he's one of them. or he is a supervisor / senior engineer who is pally with the Manager who has expressed his dis-like to my case because im sucking them dry of engineer time?? I just cant fathom the reason for this attitude from him and the fact BOTH Broadband Engineers refused to diagnose the problem? I know both were here at 4pm on a Friday..!! so probably chomping at the bit too get away - pee'd off cos GOT to work late cos some snotty kid wants faster broadband!!
Anyway, I tried to break the ice and change it to a more friendly atmosphere by offering him a cuppa but he refused, so we sat in silence while he performed tests and scribbled in his notebook , the end result was that there was wideband noise on the line (oh, I thought he said it was clean?...lol) , he said the reading (whatever it was) should be -50 to -60db and mine was -34db which indicated a problem , he said he was running over his shift already (4:20pm?) and he would continue with it tomorrow, or if not tomorrow it would be monday or tuesday (bank holiday?) - I told him it all started when I was switched over to SVBN but he said makes no difference because its only a jumper thats removed that diverts the phone signal from BT to SKY (still a physical change though? - ive said all along I think it could be sky's telephony ISAM) - he asked if I know what a main frame was? I said I know off the MDF yes, he asked if I knew what one looked like? I asid ive seen pictures yes.. then he smiled and asked what I done for a living? and I said I work in IT fixing PC's etc offering support?- he smirked, nodded his head and rolled his eyes with raised eye brows as he looked away and said "ahh right!! -" laughed then began to explain the wiring from the MDF etc - im not good at explaining these things but if you had seen him doing it; it was as if to imply "right..so you know nothing about it then!!" - he had said some other things which were rude too.. like saying he was gunna test what sky were outputting at the exchange, I told him it was on 20Mb profile, he condescendingly said (and said it s-l-o-w-l-y with a funny look on his face) "i MEANT down in the exchange...ON SITE!" - you had too see it too understand what I mean, our lass couldnt believe it like, she says I should complain... his whole attitude stunk and Im at a loss as too why? maybe he had real beef with the sky engineer or just hates sky full stop? hates his job? I just dunno...
Anyway, the sky engineer called me back and said this sort of thing happens daily for sky, that BTo keep letting them down because the broadband engineers dont want to do the work or dont have the skills/training to do so and he is arguing the toss with BTo Managers day in and day out- he says he spends a lot of time instructing the Broadband Engineers (over the phone) at jobs they should be able to do and that most of the time when SNS Engineers are called out it turns out too be a fault/problem on BT's loop that they should have addressed. He said the director of SNS was in the office and he was going to present my case to him as yet another example of BTo letting them down because it needs addressing, he said he will check the notes on Tuesday to see what he does...but he says he thinks he will just sign the job off and if he does then they will book a Sky Networking Engineer out with another BT Broadband Engineer who will allow the SNS Engineer access to all parts of the loop ....and hopefully it will get sorted then.
again this not a stab at BTopenreach or its engineers , the previous 6 i have had here were nice enough, even the last broadband engineer was a nice lad, just couldnt/wouldnt do the job... but this one left an impression. so BS & co.. pleeeeaaasssee dont hate me lol :) Iam just telling you all what happened today
TUNE IN NEXT WEEK FOLKS!!!
-
>:D Grrr, hiss, spit! :angry: snadge has had the "pleasure" of one of the "rotten apples" from the Openreach engineering barrel!
As for that poor test result Mr Grumpy obtained, I think it was the AC balance. Black Sheep will confirm it but I think -60 dB is what should be obtained on a good line.
-
i vaguely remember something about the A/C Balance last time from last broadband engineer... he said it was 63db which was not great..but OK..? - I remember telling BS and he said 63db was good , although that MAY have been the engineer before the first broadband one... the one who had me footing his ladder, carrying his bags and making him cups of tea :) all just me trying to be helpfull, infact he was great..he loved telling me all about it - i was apprentice for few hours hehe
anyway, I remember that Engineer (no.4) AND the first Broadband Engineer (no.5) on about A/C Balance, if memory serves me right (and it hasnt been a lot lately hehe) they said 50/60 is about normal...mine was 63db which is good, but not great.. as if to imply the higher it was the worse it was...but searching through my old comments I see BS says the higher it is , the better..?? why would he say its not great at 63db.. if 50 to 60db is normal.?? gah! confused!! ???
anyway, would the A/C Balance test result tell him there is wideband noise?
-
anyway, I remember that Engineer (no.4) AND the first Broadband Engineer (no.5) on about A/C Balance, if memory serves me right (and it hasnt been a lot lately hehe) they said 50/60 is about normal...mine was 63db which is good, but not great.. as if to imply the higher it was the worse it was...but searching through my old comments I see BS says the higher it is , the better..?? why would he say its not great at 63db.. if 50 to 60db is normal.?? gah! confused!! ???
The bigger it is (in a negative sense -- remember the QLN graph Y-axis?), the better. That's my understanding. :)
anyway, would the A/C Balance test result tell him there is wideband noise?
More, I think, that the pair will be prone to "pick up" any noise that may be available . . . Let's wait for a definitive comment from Black Sheep.
Yawn! Excuse me, b*cat needs to go and find his bed! :sleep:
-
This sounds pretty bad :( Waiting to see what BS says first but.........
I wonder if its worth putting a complaint into OFCOM about how the visit went and how as a consumer how difficult it is to get a satisfactory result when having to deal with 3rd parties.
It may even be worth thinking of trying to take it to one of the bods from BT. Perhaps someone like Nigel Cheek (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/telecoms/policy/bt/BT5.pdf) may be a good person to approach?
From the Openreach (http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/aboutus/ourorganisation/businessinfo.do)website you can see he has/had his finger in quite a few pies and a nice polite email to him asking for help may get some cogs moving.
Nigel Cheek, General Counsel, has invaluable experience in a number of areas key to the future of Openreach, plus an extensive knowledge of the product portfolio. Nigel leads on many of the formal requirements of our business including compliance and equivalence including leading Openreach's relationship with the Equality of Access Board. He was previously General Manager, Market Operations Team with BT Wholesale's Legal & Business Services. Nigel negotiated the Local Loop Unbundling Adjudication Scheme with Ofcom on behalf of BT and was also a member of the team that negotiated the Telecommunications Strategic Review with Ofcom.
First link provides his contact details... but wait see what others recommend first.
-
aye good idea kitz... I think I might, the sky engineer asked me to write up a report to send to the escelations rep in ceo office who is dealing with my case; so he can get a copy so he can show the director it as further evidence of them being let down by BTor , best get my spell checker on hehe
thank B'Kat for the info - the engineer said the result showed there was wideband noise.. he didnt say anything along the lines that the result is low and therefore CHANCE of noise on line is greater..im pretty sure he would have said that instead of admitting I was right all along!!! hehe... yeah ive just realised we are talking negative values here... it was late last night (thats my excuse haha) , so -34db is worse because its closer too 0db..??
-
No probs Snadge. Good and bad in every walk of life.
B*Cat (as always) is correct in his thinking .... it does indeed sound like you have a really awful AC Balance, which means the integrity of the circuit is extremely vulnerable to 'noise' ingress.
-
Crikey, I'd replied to Snadge's long comments on Page 1 without realising there was a P2 to this thread !! :-[
Snadge, take it from me without need to dig any deeper ....... the larger the number, the better the circuits integrity when talking about AC Balance. As B*Cat has pointed out, the actual figure is actually a negative integer, but the figure itself needs to be above -50dB for POTS circuits, ideally above -55-60db for DSL frequencies.
If you look at the graph below the further to the right you go (from 0dB), the nearer to absolute silence you go, and thats where your circuit wants to be heading ................... the further to the left from 0dB, the more audible noise is present. Your figure of -34dB is terribly poor and once cured will see your line behaving as before.
----------------------------+20dB ---+10dB---0dB -- -10dB --- -20dB --- -30dB --- -40dB --- -50dB --- -60dB ---
-
A ceremonial bow to Burakku Sheep, in thanks for his clarification. ;D
-
thanks BS for the clarification :)
two things,...
A) should this be a relatively easy fix?
B) when I had -63db last time I had same speeds?
I searched my old posts and I remember one or two of the engineers saying I had an 'inbetween' type of value - one of em said it was -63db (had same speeds on that, same noise encroachment) - when I asked you , you said it was good, this makes me wonder if it WAS A/C balance he was referring too the other day? - I did ask but he was being difficult and when I asked what the test was and what it tested for he just repeated that it says there was wideband noise on the line but finding where its getting in can be difficult??
what causes these low A/C Balances? ...not grounding is it?
he didnt even check the junction box on end even though it was suggested that he should
one GOOD thing is that BTo have at least acknowledged a fault/issue...
-
thanks BS for the clarification :)
two things,...
A) should this be a relatively easy fix?
B) when I had -63db last time I had same speeds?
I searched my old posts and I remember one or two of the engineers saying I had an 'inbetween' type of value - one of em said it was -63db (had same speeds on that, same noise encroachment) - when I asked you , you said it was good, this makes me wonder if it WAS A/C balance he was referring too the other day? - I did ask but he was being difficult and when I asked what the test was and what it tested for he just repeated that it says there was wideband noise on the line but finding where its getting in can be difficult??
what causes these low A/C Balances? ...not grounding is it?
he didnt even check the junction box on end even though it was suggested that he should
one GOOD thing is that BTo have at least acknowledged a fault/issue...
A) It will be as 'easy' to repair as any other type of network fault. It depends on where the actual fault is ?? If it's in a 300-pair WACK joint in a Manhole Carriageway Cover, on a main road that has a bus-route and a very high traffic count, then it could take weeks to repair due to having to apply for and the setting up of traffic-lights. Also having to get Second Stage Repair on board as anythng below 1mtr in depth requires specialised 'Blowing gear' to maintain the chamber is adequately vented.
Or, it could be incorrectly fitted gel-crimps in a PCP. 5 minute repair job.
B) I can only comment on the info you give me. If it is AC Balance we are talking about, and I'm sure it is, then your circuit will improve. The laws of physics dictate that, not me. There are a few ways of measuring AC Balance. I can guess that the way yours was measured was via a PQT test at your premises. This is a one-shot test that will take the measurement just once and this is what it shows on the tester. If you have a 'tapping' fault (ie: its there then its not), the AC Bal could be rising and falling and the PQT has 'seen' it at its best. The HHT's we use can perform a real time view of AC Bal as a seperate function to the PQT, and its this screen that will show whether its fluctuating dramatically.
AC Bal is taken by measuring across the two wires, then by shorting the 2 wires together and measuring between them an Earth. Then subtract one figure from the other. Some engineers prefer to do this themselves, rather than rely on the HHT's version of events. I personally trust the JDSU.
As an aside, AC Bal radings can be taken against applied nominal voltage. A lot of the engineering community may be mis-led into thinking it can only be taken against a 'dead pair' ?? Just a heads up in case you get a good engineer who doesn't mind you asking questions and looking at the HHT readings. ;)
-
thanks for the insight BS...
well...guess what ....IT HAS BEEN FIXED!!! 8) 8) 8)
it was a split leg!!
- down at the exchange (I think, cant remember now) but he said a wire on my pair was in contact with a wire from another...or at least explained it like that... strange how its not picked up by any of the other engineers, I asked about the test he run and he said it wasnt an A/C Balance test but a Wideband Noise Test..??
its not back to its best..the radio stations are bleeding in just a TINY bit more comapred to before all this happened... Iam getting 15.7Mb so far on my 834N ..ive yet to test my other routers...but its 'about' right so Iam happy with that - ive never really tried my netgears with sky before all this happened - so it was the sky router which got an 18Mb sync with DLM on (on 18Mb profile) - the sky router has a much better BCM 6362 chip and defo gets higher sync than my Netgears...also my 834N reports 27.5db / 28db Line Atten ...higher than my 834GT (26db) and much higher than my Sky Router F@ST 2504N (25db)
He said that I was getting 17.9Mb at the cab, the cab is just around the corner, well about 2 mins walk away.
Yes it was the SAME Engineer...working on the Monday like he said he would... he was much nicer this time around too and even wished us a happy bank holiday!??????? ??? ??? ??? totally different man today lol...
Netgear 834GT = 26.5db / 15.6Mb / 1.14Mb (Broadcom 6348)
Netgear 834N = 27.5db / 15.7Mb / 1.17Mb (Broadcom 6358)
Sagem 2504N = 26.0db / 16.6Mb / 1.14Mb (Broadcom 6362)
as you can see sky's router (6362) obliterates the Netgears (6348/6358) BUT is not unlocked so cant be tweaked :( (only sky router that isnt) , I can push 18Mb in Netgears with 3-4db SNRM , would like to see what I could get on an unlocked Sagem F@ST 250N
the Upstream Line Attenuation is still jumping all over the place though...
HERE IS BEFORE / AFTER OF THE QLN STATS - I would also like to say a big THANK YOU to everyone who helped with my case and sussing out the noise with graphs etc so I could present them to sky for evidence... especially BALD_EAGLE, ASBOKID, COOLSNAKEMAN, KITZ, B'KAT, UKHARDY07 AND BLACK SHEEP ..if I missed anyone out its just cos my memory :-[
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg535.imageshack.us%2Fimg535%2F7953%2Fqlnbeforeaftertile.jpg&hash=d4c0e314314f139c84389dc081c79f66c0e74ce1)
stats from 834GT:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg204.imageshack.us%2Fimg204%2F9416%2Flinestatsp201206041229.png&hash=03a759409776ba2f2be6bd9160cf2e2459dda9f5)
-
That looks much better than your graphs from 16th May (attached).
Hlog (attenuation) is more or less identical though.
For a true side-by-side comparison, could you plot the graphs with QLN using the same Y-axis as 16th May?
Is your attenuation jumping around while connected, or only when you resync?
IT shouldn't really alter much at all.
-
thanks for your help BA - couldnt have done it without you mate :) - please see the post above amened ;)
-
Snadge,
That is fantastic news!!!!! See what you get when you push a little harder than usual. You always come out with a good end result. I believe however you need a round of applause yourself and pat yourself in the back for the evidence gathering you did there isn't alot of people out there that would push themselves to that level of investigation and i have to say you have well impressed me ;D Now the fun part of keeping a close watch on it but i am sure with the looks of those graphs we are all confident enough the journey has come to an end. Again well done mate and you know this forum is always going to be about to help yourself, myself and many many more people that are involved in the world of technology 8)
Gary
-
Excellent news, Snadge!
:thumbs: :clap: :dance: :silly: :congrats: :drink:
-
yeah, great news :D
-
just too let you all know, I got 1 YEAR LINE RENTAL @ £1 MONTH for my troubles... :)
but... they didnt call me back as promised and ignored my emails, it took the intervention of forum staff to get the attention of the escelations rep who was handling my case, he called and apologized , thanked me for my patience... and said they are working to change protocols from BT Broadband Engineer beign last resort TO Sky Network Services Engineer being last resort because more often than not BTo LL14 Engineers are not fixing the problems ..so he says anyway, he said most of the time SNS find the problem on BT's loop and charge BT for call out, so it gives BT an incentive to get the problem resolved by them in first place.
-
Great news snadge.
You can act as my negotiator when I hammer Plusnet with my bill for all my lost/wasted time & inconvenience over the last 11 months :lol:
-
just too let you all know, I got 1 YEAR LINE RENTAL @ £1 MONTH for my troubles... :)
but... they didnt call me back as promised and ignored my emails, it took the intervention of forum staff to get the attention of the escelations rep who was handling my case, he called and apologized , thanked me for my patience... and said they are working to change protocols from BT Broadband Engineer beign last resort TO Sky Network Services Engineer being last resort because more often than not BTo LL14 Engineers are not fixing the problems ..so he says anyway, he said most of the time SNS find the problem on BT's loop and charge BT for call out, so it gives BT an incentive to get the problem resolved by them in first place.
Obviously I'm biased, but that's quite a bold statement stating 'more often than not'.
I can only speak from experience and the ISP's own 'engineers' don't know their ar5e from their elbow. They generally spend 3 hrs faffing around with internal wiring that doesn't warrant faffing with, giving the impression they're doing 'some good'. When they've finished doing the very, very basics of internal wiring, they then say Openreach engineering is necessary to give service back.
I know we have some engineers who are awful. But far from it being the majority. What does need shaking up is the way engineers are measured. If we had the time to chase miniscule faults, the service we give would be a lot better. Again though, folk have to bear in mind we currently work to SIN 349 and that's what we are targetted to. If it passes the scripted tests set to this standard, then job done.
No one is saying it's ideal, but no engineer is going to risk getting the tin-tack by trying to give another 1 meg of bandwidth on a line that tests OK. It's hard to get across to folk just how pressurised an environment it is on Openreach engineering !!! If you dont 'perform' you're out !!!
-
I work for a large high street bank as a voice and data engineer in a 3000+ seat office. We get BT engineers in most weeks for DEL/isdn/faults provides and ceases. Its nice to see the look on there faces when I tell them they can put there cable back in the van as the building is totally flood wired. The BT lads are under pressure and none of them are that happy with the situation. A guy I worked with was a BT manager and lasted only a year before he left with stress.
I am very happy with the service from BT. The only time we have real problems is when the BT, Virgin and an ISP all get involved in supplying/fault finding the same circuit.
The treatment that BT give a large business could be different form Jo Blogs but I say what I see.
-
That's kind of you to take the time to comment, Mr King. ;D
I always maintain, that these types of boards highlight the low percentage of tricky faults. The majority of EU's will experience a good 'Customer experience'.
Now I'm not saying OR have got it right, far from it. Their draconian measures reward the wrong behaviours IMO (well, everybody I talk to's opinion, if I'm being honest). They utilise a completely 'hands-off' management style, using the statistics collated from a plethora of data-systems, to 'manage' their people.
There's no consideration of age, gender, experience, locality, task-type etc etc .......... A 20yr old young lad will throw up 20 spans of overhead dropwire in half the time that a 50yr old lady engineer will. Tough, the 'machine' states it should take 90 minutes to achieve ..... end of. You could pick up a 5v battery contact on a rural route that is 30 miles from your locality. You have no local experience. Tough .... you have 2hrs to clear that task. Then you pick up Bald Eagle's task, you can see it's going to need the A to Z of telecomms engineering, which equates to a lot of time. Tough ..... you are awarded 2 hrs to bottom the task.
In the interests of balance, we do get simple tasks as well, which as connect4king says, is where we end up with a damn great smile on our face, as we know we can claw back some of the 'un-productive' time from previous.
If you start Monday morning and clear just 2 tasks on that day, the stress levels are immense as you are trying to keep your head above the b*******g line. If by Wednesday you haven't managed to recover the loss, that's when the, "The PQT and Eclipse shows there's nothing wrong with your line ..... bye bye", begins to creep in. I wouldn't blame any engineer for doing this, as he doesn't want to be put on the disciplinary route.
If we went back to 'Man managing', whereby your boss know you as an individual, knows your strengths and weaknesses, knows where to get the best out of the individual , then we would be a better team. As it is, a faceless, unempathic machine called 'Work Manager' doles out the work, and a similar machine called 'i-POP', decides whether we are a 'good' engineer or a 'bad' engineer. Wrong on so many levels IMO.
Sorry for the rant and the kidnap of this thread.
-
BS,
Totally agree. Just like the helpdesk we are all pulled down by what they call "procedures" and systems that don't even work half the time. Makes everyones job alot more challenging and complicated when it doesn't need to be. There is 1 question i would like to ask and that is where did openreach get that "2 hours" time frame from i can't imagine this to be a random number. I suspect they work it as an average based on stats they have gathered on engineering jobs.
Gary
-
I know that job times on most network-type tasks are taken from historical data, so can only imagine that DSL tasks are formulated the same way ???
The problem is, most times were taken when the bonus-scheme's of FRS and SMT were implemented, and engineers were running around like headless chickens !! We cut our own throats on that one, I'm afraid. The D-side Network and 'Routing and Records' went into complete disarray !!
IMO, we're still recovering from that period.
-
BS,
What job would you say is more complex PSTN or broadband? I would of said that there is more involved when troubleshooting a broadband network issue and you have more to break down than on the PSTN. We have ex engineers that work on this desk and they beg to differ on that one.
Gary
-
BS,
What job would you say is more complex PSTN or broadband? I would of said that there is more involved when troubleshooting a broadband network issue and you have more to break down than on the PSTN. We have ex engineers that work on this desk and they beg to differ on that one.
Gary
Broadband by far and away !! Just show your mates this forum to make them see sense !! ;) ;D
The only reason Broadband Faulting could be deemed as 'easy' by others, is that the line TOK when the fault arrives on our laptop. This of course means finding the actual fault is harder than receiving a PSTN fault that says, 'Loop' ... or 'Dis at 96%'.
Seriously, I tend to find engineers who think PSTN faulting is difficult not really knowledgeable about the bigger picture. Ask them about Insertion Loss, AC Balance, Impulse Noise Counters, Wideband Noise Induction, REIN, PEIN, SHINE, Interleaving, CRC, HEC, FEC ............. then mention Spectral Analaysis right at the end to really screw their nappers up !!
PSTN ?? It's had its day, especially when VOIP becomes more prevalent, seeing as the trials BT were running have now passed. I could teach PSTN faulting to a reasonably minded individual in a couple of weeks, I'm still learning where BB is concerned.
-
Always thought myself that broadband fault finding would be alot more complex than PSTN only cause there is alot more involved in the setup of broadband and alot more out there that can cause faults with it. Think that particular work colleague is a bit smug with himself and probably believes he was a master engineer in his day :lol: I would believe more time would be given to engineers to repair broadband faults since it is more complex.
Gary
-
Just ask him what effect providing a PSTN only circuit, over a split-pair would have ?? Answer = Nothing much at all.
The same circuit but with DSL provided on it ?? Answer = Mayhem.
Similar question as above, but the line tests ok using various old-style meters. PSTN only circuit works perfect, but when DSL is applied it loses synch and has thousands of errors. Answer = The pair of wires are in contact with another pair of wires (usually underground), but the 'other pair' is what we call 'dead' ..... ie- not a working line. This will throw the capacitance readings and AC Balance readings and leg-resistance readings all over the place, but will only affect DSL, not PSTN.
Like I say, ask him what various terms are and how they relate to a circuits integrity, and if he can answer them , he may be what he professes to be. I'll have a pint on it he has no idea. ;D :lol:
-
Similar question as above, but the line tests ok using various old-style meters. PSTN only circuit works perfect, but when DSL is applied it loses synch and has thousands of errors. Answer = The pair of wires are in contact with another pair of wires (usually underground), but the 'other pair' is what we call 'dead' ..... ie- not a working line. This will throw the capacitance readings and AC Balance readings and leg-resistance readings all over the place, but will only affect DSL, not PSTN.
Like I say, ask him what various terms are and how they relate to a circuits integrity, and if he can answer them , he may be what he professes to be. I'll have a pint on it he has no idea. ;D :lol:
Ah, so that's what might have caused the high "insinuation" level on my connection then (as one visiting PSTN engineer called it) - unless he was insinuating that I was insinuating something else. ???
-
Similar question as above, but the line tests ok using various old-style meters. PSTN only circuit works perfect, but when DSL is applied it loses synch and has thousands of errors. Answer = The pair of wires are in contact with another pair of wires (usually underground), but the 'other pair' is what we call 'dead' ..... ie- not a working line. This will throw the capacitance readings and AC Balance readings and leg-resistance readings all over the place, but will only affect DSL, not PSTN.
Like I say, ask him what various terms are and how they relate to a circuits integrity, and if he can answer them , he may be what he professes to be. I'll have a pint on it he has no idea. ;D :lol:
Ah, so that's what might have caused the high "insinuation" level on my connection then (as one visiting PSTN engineer called it) - unless he was insinuating that I was insinuating something else. ???
:lol: :lol: I was hoping you might get one of our 'original' (been on since A.G. Bell invented the phone) engineers from my patch, visiting your abode, BE. A few of us have explained to him that the dilithium crystals tend to overheat at higher frequencies, causing slow-speeds. He actually said that he knew this ??!!! ;D
We were tempted to introduce terminology such as 'Warp factor' and that not only is resistance a key player in a circuits integrity, but it's also 'Futile'. He soon turned the convo back to the old dial-phones. ;) ;D
Although we are having a bit of a jest here, there are some greatly knowledgeable old-soaks still left on BT. But to reiterate on coolsnakemans point, PSTN faulting is a walk in the park compared to DSL. :)
-
:lol: :lol: I was hoping you might get one of our 'original' (been on since A.G. Bell invented the phone) engineers from my patch, visiting your abode, BE. A few of us have explained to him that the dilithium crystals tend to overheat at higher frequencies, causing slow-speeds. He actually said that he knew this ??!!! ;D
We were tempted to introduce terminology such as 'Warp factor' and that not only is resistance a key player in a circuits integrity, but it's also 'Futile'. He soon turned the convo back to the old dial-phones. ;) ;D
Although we are having a bit of a jest here, there are some greatly knowledgeable old-soaks still left on BT. But to reiterate on coolsnakemans point, PSTN faulting is a walk in the park compared to DSL. :)
Just wondering if the above "Old Timer" is aware of the havoc that can be created on a simple PSTN circuit when one reverses the polarity of the neutron flow? :D
-
Ha ha ..... circa 'The Good Doctor' .......... who ?? ;) ;D
-
BT are recruiting local to me, call center staff through agencys at £6.70 p/h - they are trying to bring all call center staff back to UK from India because the level of complaints and problems due to language barrier etc... 5 weeks training 9-5pm mon-fri , then on the phones live 8-10pm mon-sat
I would like to do the broadband / phone / vision support but i could NOT ram BT products down peoples throats on spec!! (sales)
-
I think you'll find the said agencies require you to sign a contract that you will never attempt to claim "equal rights" with permanent staff.
ie - no paid holiday, no sick pay, minimum wage, no overtime rates.
Its called the Swedish Derogation and makes a mockery of one of the few decent laws Labour did enact in 13 years.
I know people have to use them but as far as I'm concerned employment agencies for low-skilled workers are parasitical scum. I'm no socialist but the employment agency will be making more money (gross) than you snadge, they're probably on £15/hour for those positions.
-
I think you'll find the said agencies require you to sign a contract that you will never attempt to claim "equal rights" with permanent staff.
ie - no paid holiday, no sick pay, minimum wage, no overtime rates.
Its called the Swedish Derogation and makes a mockery of one of the few decent laws Labour did enact in 13 years.
I know people have to use them but as far as I'm concerned employment agencies for low-skilled workers are parasitical scum. I'm no socialist but the employment agency will be making more money (gross) than you snadge, they're probably on £15/hour for those positions.
couldnt agree more, I have worked for agencys before and one was being paid £18/hour to pay me £6/hour a few year back...shocking.. and they always "lull" you in with false promises and ALWAYS muck up wages.. i remember I got one job through agency and they said everything good about it..except that it was just to cover someone off sick for 5 days!!! i found out on my first night!!
i hate agencys with a passion
oh and someone said on facebook that Manpower (the agency doing the work) fill you with crud about bonuses and this lad said it was literrally PENNIES you made for every sale you completed...
-
As you go up the pay scale the agency gets less. Still seems to be at least 20% gouge until you hit £25/hour to you though.
You live in the UK where "middlemen" who "run" agencies take their cut for nothing other than cheap adverts and screwing their own sales staff. Ostensibly they claim they get the (big) gross margin because they have the cash to pay the workers on time. As anyone who has worked for these jokers knows that's total nonsense.
-
I think you'll find the said agencies require you to sign a contract that you will never attempt to claim "equal rights" with permanent staff.
ie - no paid holiday, no sick pay, minimum wage, no overtime rates.
Its called the Swedish Derogation and makes a mockery of one of the few decent laws Labour did enact in 13 years.
I know people have to use them but as far as I'm concerned employment agencies for low-skilled workers are parasitical scum. I'm no socialist but the employment agency will be making more money (gross) than you snadge, they're probably on £15/hour for those positions.
Never heard of Swedish Derogation before today, but quite shocking. It seems comparable to the antics of Company pension trustees, employing clever 'spiv' lawyers to find an angle that turns well-meaning legislation around to their own advantage.
Once upon a time (and in my life time), the legal and banking and Industrial sectors could be relied upon for a degree of gentlemanly contact. Not any more it seems.
I'd like to think the Spivs who dream up these schemes would one day be knocked from their perches, and held to account. And, like Nuremberg, 'I was only obeying instructions' would not be accepted as a valid defence. >:(
Sorry for the rant.
-
Guys,
Ever heard of Agency Workers Regulations? This basically means that agency staff will be paid the same as there full time permanent colleagues. It came into effect in the UK in october off course northern ireland didn't get it until feb cause of our poor level politicians not getting there figure out. I work for manpower and benifit from this. I get the same pay, holidays and benifits my BT work colleagues receive. Can't say i am complaining although i am currently awaiting a manpower to BT conversion to get a BT contract ;D
Gary
-
Guys,
Ever heard of Agency Workers Regulations? This basically means that agency staff will be paid the same as there full time permanent colleagues. It came into effect in the UK in october off course northern ireland didn't get it until feb cause of our poor level politicians not getting there figure out. I work for manpower and benifit from this. I get the same pay, holidays and benifits my BT work colleagues receive. Can't say i am complaining although i am currently awaiting a manpower to BT conversion to get a BT contract ;D
Gary
Ever heard of the Swedish Derogation?
Pretty much every agency in the UK is using it and getting new contract staff to sign agreements (perfectly legal) stating they won't try to claim equal rights with permanent staff if they're on 12+ week contracts. Don't sign and bye bye any more contracts and you/your CV are in the bin. If you haven't been asked to sign then well done but its only a matter of time.