Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: ben1066 on April 03, 2012, 02:20:31 PM

Title: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 03, 2012, 02:20:31 PM

So yesterday I had Openreach at last install FTTC however I do not think the engineer did it correctly. I explained that my computer and router etc. is nowhere near the master socket and that I am currently using an extension socket for my ADSL connection. Looking at where he'd run a cable he decided that he'd try using the current extension as the VDSL socket, replacing the extension faceplate with the VDSL faceplate. He seemed to get decent speeds however from it, I think I remember his JDSU recording 40,000 and 8,000 for download and upload attainable rate respectively. Since then I have had some odd issues. I found that installing microfilters on the cordless handset I use increased the speed on speedtest from 32Mbps to around 38Mbps. My upload also seems to fall short of what it should be, attaining only 6Mbps. Should I be phoning Openreach or is this actually ok?

For exact figures, this my speedtest currently.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F1872820056.png&hash=24d7fad4dcfcc3bf919c1a48c7935695cbf379c2) (http://www.speedtest.net)

If it matters BT's speedtest keeps giving me the error "The Performance Tester is currently unable to run a speed test for your broadband connection. Please try again shortly, however if this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider."

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 03, 2012, 06:45:20 PM

Hi ben1066,

Quote from: ben1066 on April 03, 2012, 02:20:31 PM

So yesterday I had Openreach at last install FTTC however I do not think the engineer did it correctly. I explained that my computer and router etc. is nowhere near the master socket and that I am currently using an extension socket for my ADSL connection. Looking at where he'd run a cable he decided that he'd try using the current extension as the VDSL socket, replacing the extension faceplate with the VDSL faceplate. He seemed to get decent speeds however from it, I think I remember his JDSU recording 40,000 and 8,000 for download and upload attainable rate respectively. Since then I have had some odd issues. I found that installing microfilters on the cordless handset I use increased the speed on speedtest from 32Mbps to around 38Mbps. My upload also seems to fall short of what it should be, attaining only 6Mbps. Should I be phoning Openreach or is this actually ok?

For exact figures, this my speedtest currently.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F1872820056.png&hash=24d7fad4dcfcc3bf919c1a48c7935695cbf379c2) (http://www.speedtest.net)

If it matters BT's speedtest keeps giving me the error "The Performance Tester is currently unable to run a speed test for your broadband connection. Please try again shortly, however if this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider."

Your speed test of 37.54Mb appears to confirm the typical FTTC downstream throughput of approximately 97% of IP Profile which at 96.79% of a "Full Monty" sync speed of 39999 k is probably around 38715 k.
(97% of 38715 = 37553)


Unfortunately, I don't have typical upstream speeds to quote other than when my connection was capped at 2Mb upstream sync speed, I usually had 1.67Mb reported by speedtest.net (83.5%).

I am currently on the 80Mb/20Mb trials, but can only achieve an upstream sync speed of 5454 k.
speed tests currently show 4.45Mb upstream, which is 81.6% of sync speed.

Currently, the only way to confirm downstream & upstream sync speeds is to unlock the OR modem by using an "unofficial" firmware update (assuming it is a Huawei HG612 modem & not an ECI modem).

Alternatively a different modem such as a FritzBox could be used (at tremendous expense).

HTH,

Paul.


EDIT:

Ah, I have just seen your posts in this thread, so the unlocking is currently a no-go:-
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,10635.0.html

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 03, 2012, 08:00:17 PM

Thanks for your help. My only concern is when I saw the JDSU the attainable rate vs max attainable was 99% on the upload and I think the max was 8100ish. And also the way he installed it, the VDSL faceplate is not on the master socket, is that ok?

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: Bald_Eagle1 on April 03, 2012, 08:40:19 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 03, 2012, 08:00:17 PM

Thanks for your help. My only concern is when I saw the JDSU the attainable rate vs max attainable was 99% on the upload and I think the max was 8100ish. And also the way he installed it, the VDSL faceplate is not on the master socket, is that ok?

When I had FTTC installed, the engineer hard wired my existing extension cable from the original master socket, (upstairs), bypassing everything in the original master socket, to the new master socket position (downstairs).

He then wired from the new master socket's faceplate (using a spare pair of wires in my cable) back upstairs, making the original master socket effectively an extension, also changing its faceplate from its original separate ADSL & telephone sockets to a single telephone socket.

This "back-wiring" raised a few eyebrows, but it all worked perfectly (until my connection "issues" started - a month later).
I believe my issues are completely unrelated to how the installing engineer wired up my connection.

I presume your installing engineer has done something very similar?

You could check by removing the faceplate at what was the master socket to see if what was your extension cable is now connected directly to the incoming drop wire.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 03, 2012, 09:49:59 PM

No it isn't, the drop wire goes to the master socket. This then goes to the 2 extension sockets, one of which has had the VDSL  faceplate fitted.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on April 03, 2012, 10:58:59 PM

Quote

No it isn't, the drop wire goes to the master socket. This then goes to the 2 extension sockets, one of which has had the VDSL  faceplate fitted.

Hmm  :hmm:  I think it is time you took a few photographs, please.

At each socket:

(1) an external overview.
(2) with the front removed and the internal wires of the cables clearly shown, along with the terminals to which each wire is connected.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: bluebeanbandit on April 09, 2012, 09:47:57 PM

Quite simply that has been installed incorrectly and will probably cause problems in the future.  The engineer should have ran a data extension using cat5e from the master socket to where ever you wanted your modem and router located.

I would complain to your CP about substandard workmanship which you want corrected and ask for a visit from the local manager.

Also back wiring of any kind is a no no and will increase errors on the circuit which may also lead to further problems.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on April 10, 2012, 04:23:33 AM

To be fair to the installing engineer, BBB, we really need to see the wiring and sockets or images thereof.  ;)

At present, all we can currently say is that the installation could be somewhat unorthodox.  :-\

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: bluebeanbandit on April 11, 2012, 04:00:48 PM

seems pretty clear to me by the description that it aint been done right.  There is no such thing as unorthodox its either done right or done wrong and that is done wrong.  Filters on a VDSL circuit, dont think so!  The SSFP should be doing all the filtering as it should be at the first (master) socket, if you've got an SSFP where an extension should be then it defeats the purpose.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on April 11, 2012, 04:12:11 PM

Quote from: bluebeanbandit on April 11, 2012, 04:00:48 PM

seems pretty clear to me by the description that it aint been done right.  There is no such thing as unorthodox its either done right or done wrong and that is done wrong.  Filters on a VDSL circuit, dont think so!  The SSFP should be doing all the filtering as it should be at the first (master) socket, if you've got an SSFP where an extension should be then it defeats the purpose.

I appreciate exactly what you are saying but as one person's written description can be a variance with yours, mine or the next person's, I would prefer to reserve judgement on the installation until I have seen the evidence with my own eyes.

Clearly you are either a (1) serving Openreach employee (2) an ex-Openreach employee or (3) a retired ex-employee of any one of the companies that the original GPO Telephones had been transmogrified into, over the years since the mid 1960s. Would you like to introduce yourself to us all?

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: bluebeanbandit on April 12, 2012, 10:15:09 AM

curiosity killed the cat

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: kitz on April 12, 2012, 09:26:36 PM

Quote from: bluebeanbandit on April 12, 2012, 10:15:09 AM

curiosity killed the cat

Teh kitteh openz one eye..  stretches..  pads (with teh klawz retracted)...
... we iz a cat (and people) friendly zone..  no killing of kittehs allowed plz  ;)

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 04:34:37 PM

This is now more worrying. Since the uplift I think this could be impacting my speeds. I have removed the ring wire at the MAIN master socket to try and reduce interference and I have plugged the DECT station into the faceplate's filter, thus eliminating ALL external filters. Another point to note, I'm using the HomeHub v2 in the filtered socket as I require it's DECT station functionality. This results it a strange situation. When my connection dies and reconnects, the modem and it fight, and eventually the modem wins. Once the modem has a connection it holds on and the homehub has no issue. I find this odd since it is running through a filter...

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fspeedtest.net%2Fresult%2F1897538044.png&hash=7ce195e773a17e892ed5f461014f7d101fcaee88)
Just now
(Note Speedtest thought I was nearer Aberdeen than Gloucester, I'm in Cornwall so this obviously isn't true.)

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fspeedtest.net%2Fresult%2F1892349127.png&hash=30fb1049750e3bd09bf76aaad36e1fa4ab034985)
Friday

Code: [Select]

C:\Users\Ben>tracert bbc.co.uk

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  router.lan [192.168.1.1]
  2     7 ms     6 ms     6 ms  217.32.141.4
  3     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  217.32.140.206
  4    12 ms    12 ms    12 ms  217.41.216.130
  5    12 ms     *        *     217.41.222.82
  6    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  217.41.222.178
  7    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  acc1-10GigE-0-2-0-6.bm.21cn-ipp.bt.net [109.159.
248.108]
  8    24 ms    20 ms    23 ms  core1-te0-15-0-0.ealing.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.2
48.12]
  9    19 ms    18 ms    82 ms  peer2-xe1-0-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.2
54.104]
 10    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms  194.74.65.42
 11     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 12    21 ms    21 ms    20 ms  ae1.er01.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.46]
 13    19 ms    19 ms    20 ms  132.185.255.134
 14    22 ms    21 ms    21 ms  212.58.241.131

Trace complete.
I've also done a BT speedtest though I forgot to save the profile (doh). From what I remember I had the full 20 up but only 55 down.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: Black Sheep on April 16, 2012, 04:56:43 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 04:34:37 PM

This is now more worrying. Since the uplift I think this could be impacting my speeds. I have removed the ring wire at the MAIN master socket to try and reduce interference and I have plugged the DECT station into the faceplate's filter, thus eliminating ALL external filters. Another point to note, I'm using the HomeHub v2 in the filtered socket as I require it's DECT station functionality. This results it a strange situation. When my connection dies and reconnects, the modem and it fight, and eventually the modem wins. Once the modem has a connection it holds on and the homehub has no issue. I find this odd since it is running through a filter...

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fspeedtest.net%2Fresult%2F1897538044.png&hash=7ce195e773a17e892ed5f461014f7d101fcaee88)
Just now
(Note Speedtest thought I was nearer Aberdeen than Gloucester, I'm in Cornwall so this obviously isn't true.)

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fspeedtest.net%2Fresult%2F1892349127.png&hash=30fb1049750e3bd09bf76aaad36e1fa4ab034985)
Friday

Code: [Select]

C:\Users\Ben>tracert bbc.co.uk

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  router.lan [192.168.1.1]
  2     7 ms     6 ms     6 ms  217.32.141.4
  3     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  217.32.140.206
  4    12 ms    12 ms    12 ms  217.41.216.130
  5    12 ms     *        *     217.41.222.82
  6    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  217.41.222.178
  7    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  acc1-10GigE-0-2-0-6.bm.21cn-ipp.bt.net [109.159.
248.108]
  8    24 ms    20 ms    23 ms  core1-te0-15-0-0.ealing.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.2
48.12]
  9    19 ms    18 ms    82 ms  peer2-xe1-0-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.2
54.104]
 10    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms  194.74.65.42
 11     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 12    21 ms    21 ms    20 ms  ae1.er01.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.46]
 13    19 ms    19 ms    20 ms  132.185.255.134
 14    22 ms    21 ms    21 ms  212.58.241.131

Trace complete.
I've also done a BT speedtest though I forgot to save the profile (doh). From what I remember I had the full 20 up but only 55 down.

Well I never !!! I didn't know the HomeHub V2 would work on a Fibre product ??. More knowledge for BS to keep. Cheers. :)

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 05:01:47 PM

I'm not using it for the fibre product at all. I'm using it ONLY for the DECT standard landline functionality as I'm stuck with several hub phones that I don't want to replace, not if it can be avoided. I'm using the ECI modem for my VDSL connection.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: Black Sheep on April 16, 2012, 05:05:15 PM

Oh, I see. My bad.  :)

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 05:11:12 PM

Also, not sure if it's just the ECI modem being dumb or there is actually an issue but

Code: [Select]

24 hours Near End Far End
CRC 4294967287 0
FEC 4294965975 0
ES 0 0
SES 0 0
UAS 77 0
Have some pretty graphs too

Just to clarify my previous point, my master socket is where the drop wire comes in. From that a wire goes to the extension sockets, I do not know if it is a "star" or "bus" configuration. Then, one of the extension sockets has had their faceplate replaced with the VDSL SSFP. To that I have connected the VDSL modem and also via another 2 filters as an adapter my HHv2 for it's DECT functionality. I've used 2 filters since 1 didn't seem to stop it trying to tie up the line, adding the second seemed to remedy that. I also have another extension, to which nothing is connected.

EDIT: Since adding the second filter my downstream SNR has shot up from <6dB to 6.4dB. D1 is still only 5.9dB but interestingly D2 is 7.1dB.  Also, for some reason, U2 is hardly being used if you look at the bitloading graph. I have no idea what that's about. Before the uplift more or less all of it was being used (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10635.0;attach=6081;image). Does ADSL overlap U2 at all? I didn't think it would since it's a high frequency.

EDIT2: I'm hoping this data is bogus:

Code: [Select]

Current 15 mins Near End Far End
CRC 4294967256 0
FEC 4294947535 1
ES 4294967256 4294967264
SES 0 4294967291
UAS 0 0
24 hours Near End Far End
CRC 47 0
FEC 24707 1
ES 42 0
SES 4294967295 0
UAS 30 0
EDIT3:
Found the band plan command, first is upstream, second is downstream.

Code: [Select]

Alpha # echo "bbsg 0" > /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_cmd
Alpha # cat /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_ack
nReturn=0 nDirection=0 nNumData=3
nFormat=(nBandIndex, (nLimit_firstToneIndex, nLimit_lastToneIndex), (nBorder_fir
stToneIndex, nBorder_lastToneIndex)) nData="
(00,(0010,0031),(0010,0031))
(01,(0882,1193),(0882,1193))
(02,(1984,2324),(2073,2315))
"
Alpha # echo "bbsg 1" > /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_cmd
Alpha # cat /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_ack
nReturn=0 nDirection=1 nNumData=3
nFormat=(nBandIndex, (nLimit_firstToneIndex, nLimit_lastToneIndex), (nBorder_fir
stToneIndex, nBorder_lastToneIndex)) nData="
(00,(0033,0857),(0033,0857))
(01,(1218,1959),(1218,1849))
(02,(2795,3391),(2795,3373))

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 08:25:06 PM

Argh! My line now keeps cutting out. The stats show low SNR again :( Seems I'll have to phone BT and get this installation botch fixed. Yes I removed the (filtered) HHv2 and it has made bugger all difference.

Code: [Select]

Current 15 mins Near End Far End
CRC 4294967292 0
FEC 4294967137 0
ES 114 0
SES 29 0
UAS 66 0
24 hours Near End Far End
CRC 4294967292 0
FEC 4294967137 0
ES 114 0
SES 29 0
UAS 66 0
I'm REALLY hoping that that is bogus. It's not like I can use it to report the damn fault.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 16, 2012, 09:01:28 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 05:11:12 PM

Also, not sure if it's just the ECI modem being dumb or there is actually an issue but

Code: [Select]

24 hours Near End Far End
CRC 4294967287 0
FEC 4294965975 0
ES 0 0
SES 0 0
UAS 77 0

CRC is definitely not identified correctly.  You wouldn't have a connection at all with that error rate.

What you have labelled "CRC" is possibly the count of data blocks passed to the RS decoder (both good and bad data blocks).

Can we see the raw data though?  How is it being labelled by dsl_cpe_control?

Quote

EDIT2: I'm hoping this data is bogus:

Code: [Select]

Current 15 mins Near End Far End
CRC 4294967256 0
FEC 4294947535 1
ES 4294967256 4294967264
SES 0 4294967291
UAS 0 0
24 hours Near End Far End
CRC 47 0
FEC 24707 1
ES 42 0
SES 4294967295 0
UAS 30 0

Those aren't parsed correctly.. Reset the counters and maybe watch closely to identify the fields.

Quote

EDIT3:
Found the band plan command, first is upstream, second is downstream.

Code: [Select]

Alpha # echo "bbsg 0" > /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_cmd
Alpha # cat /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_ack
nReturn=0 nDirection=0 nNumData=3 nFormat=(nBandIndex, (nLimit_firstToneIndex, nLimit_lastToneIndex), (nBorder_firstToneIndex, nBorder_lastToneIndex)) nData="
(00,(0010,0031),(0010,0031))
(01,(0882,1193),(0882,1193))
(02,(1984,2324),(2073,2315))
"
Alpha # echo "bbsg 1" > /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_cmd
Alpha # cat /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_ack
nReturn=0 nDirection=1 nNumData=3 nFormat=(nBandIndex, (nLimit_firstToneIndex, nLimit_lastToneIndex), (nBorder_firstToneIndex, nBorder_lastToneIndex)) nData="
(00,(0033,0857),(0033,0857))
(01,(1218,1959),(1218,1849))
(02,(2795,3391),(2795,3373))

That was an important find..

cheers, a

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 09:07:26 PM

Those error counts are pulled directly from the web interface, aka ECI's not mine. I'll add band plans to eDMT shortly. Still with my connection, could it just be that the DSLAM needs to retrain? That's what I'm hoping for, an uplift really shouldn't be detrimental :P

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 16, 2012, 09:30:24 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 09:07:26 PM

Those error counts are pulled directly from the web interface, aka ECI's not mine.

Any chance you could do a screenshot so we can see all the other stats, please?

Quote

I'll add band plans to eDMT shortly.

It would be good to document the strings that are passed to dsl_cpe_control socket to obtain each stat.

Quote

Still with my connection, could it just be that the DSLAM needs to retrain? That's what I'm hoping for, an uplift really shouldn't be detrimental :P

I'm missing the problem.  According to those SpeedTests (which were performed using different servers..) your downstream rate has actually gone up from 37.31Mbps on 13 April to 42.43Mbps on 16 April (today).

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 09:37:04 PM

My upstream has significantly decreased, as has the maximum attainable and my latency has increased. I have since then reset my router due to causing the pipe to hang (got a command wrong, causes pipe to hang sometimes). I have had the modem on for just over an hour, and the 24 hour count resets on every reboot so that's one hours worth. That doesn't look so bad. Also, 42/5 is significantly less than the 55/20 I'm estimated.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 16, 2012, 10:27:17 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 16, 2012, 09:37:04 PM

My upstream has significantly decreased, as has the maximum attainable and my latency has increased. I have since then reset my router due to causing the pipe to hang (got a command wrong, causes pipe to hang sometimes). I have had the modem on for just over an hour, and the 24 hour count resets on every reboot so that's one hours worth. That doesn't look so bad. Also, 42/5 is significantly less than the 55/20 I'm estimated.

Thank you!

How weird! They look like the sort of nonsensical values you get from referencing uninitialised integers.

cheers, a

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on April 16, 2012, 11:48:52 PM

Quote

How weird!

Seconded. That GUI screen shows pure nonsense.  ???

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 17, 2012, 03:51:40 PM

Good, still not sure what to about my line though. The fact such a tiny amount of upstream is being used is concerning. And my rates that are about 15 less than estimated is damn well annoying. Could it be the fact that the internal extension has cross-talk on that upstream band?

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 18, 2012, 04:00:33 PM

Still, what should I do about my upstream going down?

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 18, 2012, 04:11:31 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 18, 2012, 04:00:33 PM

Still, what should I do about my upstream going down?

Can you provide some raw stats?

If you can get the QLN data that should give some pointers.  Failing that, maybe the error counts plotted over time would offer an indication of the cause.

cheers, a

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 18, 2012, 04:19:16 PM

I can't get QLN data and I can't find the command for errors, and as you have seen, the web ui errors quickly turn to mush. Before they did I didn't notice many errors, I had a couple thousand FEC after a few hours but that is all.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 18, 2012, 05:25:42 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 17, 2012, 03:51:40 PM

Could it be the fact that the internal extension has cross-talk on that upstream band?

Not very likely. But you could eliminate that by Going Commando: plug the modem directly into the test socket behind the NTE faceplate. For good measure, forget the filter.  Re-sync.  If the poor upstream performance persists, then it's not due to consumer wiring.

Quote from: ben1066 on April 18, 2012, 04:00:33 PM

Still, what should I do about my upstream going down?

I would try to quantify the upstream bandwidth drop over a period of time.  Does it rise and fall?  Are particular times of day worse?

cheers, a

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 18, 2012, 07:29:11 PM

It's constant across day and night. It was considerably higher before the uplift, and has since dropped. The sync and attainable have barely changed and the band used hasn't either.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 19, 2012, 12:23:52 AM

I'm really lost over the nature of the problem..

Is this an accurate account of the history?..

You had FTTC installed on April 2.
At the time, you were not satistfied with the wiring installation in your home, nor with the performance of the FTTC service, in particular the upstream throughput.
Using the test function of several speedtest.net servers, you have measured that upstream performance to be between 4.5Mbps and 7.5Mbps.
Consequently, you requested an 'uplift' from Openreach, which was performed a few days ago.
That work has unfortunately not improved the VDSL2 performance.
You decided to unlock the ECI modem. This has gained you limited statistics on the line performance (error rates, aggregate attenuation rates, SNR, but not QLN nor HLOG).

In this thread and others, you have raised various concerns:

. the competence of the wiring that the openreach engineer carried out in your home,
. the presence of a ring wire in the master socket (NTE?) in your home
. a conflict between a HomeHub2 and the ECI VDSL2 modem in your home network
. the possibility that defective consumer wiring is creating noise which could be impacting your upstream bandwidth.

What originally prompted you to request an uplift? Your disappointment at the performance of the FTTC service which failed to meet your expectations? Were any faults actually discovered, acknowledged or repaired during that uplift?

To recap..

Your downstream rates (both attainable and actual) have remained satisfactory since installation at the beginning of April..
Your upstream attainable rate has remained constant.
your actual upstream rate has dropped from ~7.5Mbps to around 4.5Mbps, according to various speedtest.net tests.

Do you have any info on your loop? How far are you from the cabinet?  Did the engineer comment on the quality of your line during his maintenance work?

cheers, a

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 19, 2012, 04:09:17 PM

The master socket is an NTE5 type, I have since removed the ring wire. All extensions are on a "bus" from this as far as I can tell. The engineer said that the internal line quality was okay since this house was new as of last summer and at that point he was getting more or less full attainable rate for the 40/10 package.

I ordered the so called 'uplift' from 40/10 to 80/20 as I was quoted 55/20 over the 40/10, I obviously took the opportunity. For a few days I had the stable readings you have seen although now my upload has began to drop even lower. Its now only 5000000kb/s attainable (the sync rate is actually HIGHER).

I am actually not sure which cabinet I am connected too. There is one cabinet however it doesn't appear to have it's FTTC counterpart. The engineer mentioned the cabinet being "just down the road" so I assume it's quite close.

I have removed the HH2 to remove all possibility of conflict, this has made no change.

Overall that is an accurate account.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 19, 2012, 05:19:09 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 19, 2012, 04:09:17 PM

The master socket is an NTE5 type, I have since removed the ring wire. All extensions are on a "bus" from this as far as I can tell. The engineer said that the internal line quality was okay since this house was new as of last summer and at that point he was getting more or less full attainable rate for the 40/10 package.

I ordered the so called 'uplift' from 40/10 to 80/20 as I was quoted 55/20 over the 40/10, I obviously took the opportunity. For a few days I had the stable readings you have seen although now my upload has began to drop even lower. Its now only 5000000kb/s attainable (the sync rate is actually HIGHER).

I am actually not sure which cabinet I am connected too. There is one cabinet however it doesn't appear to have it's FTTC counterpart. The engineer mentioned the cabinet being "just down the road" so I assume it's quite close.

I have removed the HH2 to remove all possibility of conflict, this has made no change.

Overall that is an accurate account.

just to clarify the language we are using..

the term attainable rate or attainable net data rate (ATTNDR) is normally used to refer to the sync rate.  See the excellent glossary written by the Chief Kitizo  [1] and the G992.3 Recommendations (7/2002). [2]

the term actual rate is a more practical measurement of the number of bits per second actually available for the transport of data traffic (including transport layer overheads, etc..)

From the data you have obtained in recent days from the ECI, we can see that your Sync Rate a.k.a. ATTNDR (DS:US) is 42533120:8650125   (about 40.5Mbps UP / 8.3Mbps DOWN)

Code: [Select]

Alpha # echo "g997lsg 0 1" > /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_cmd
Alpha # cat /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_ack
nReturn=0 nDirection=0 nDeltDataType=1 LATN=0 SATN=0 SNR=62 ATTNDR=8650125 ACTPS=-901 ACTATP=109

Alpha # echo "g997lsg 1 1" > /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_cmd
Alpha # cat /tmp/pipe/dsl_cpe0_ack
nReturn=0 nDirection=1 nDeltDataType=1 LATN=231 SATN=178 SNR=64 ATTNDR=42533120 ACTPS=-901 ACTATP=55

We don't know the length of your loop, but those are certainly not shameful figures for attainable rates.

You have also used the speedtest servers to obtain estimates of your actual data rate. That is, the net data throughput available for transporting layer 3 data (tcp/ip, udp, icmp, etc.).     
Is it the results of these tests (e.g. indicating an upstream throughput as low as 4.5Mbps) which have resulted in your disappointment?

There are questions over the value of speedtest.net tests. They tend to be inaccurate.  The same test run on 5 different servers can produce wildly different results, due to contention from different routing, varying switching capacities etc.

Do you have the command (and response) for obtaining actual data rates from the ECI modem?  That would be the most accurate measurement.

cheers, a

[1] http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_explanation.htm
[2] http://huaweihg612hacking.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/measuring-line-characteristics-on-the-huawei/

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: Black Sheep on April 19, 2012, 07:09:22 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 19, 2012, 04:09:17 PM

The master socket is an NTE5 type, I have since removed the ring wire. All extensions are on a "bus" from this as far as I can tell. The engineer said that the internal line quality was okay since this house was new as of last summer and at that point he was getting more or less full attainable rate for the 40/10 package.

I ordered the so called 'uplift' from 40/10 to 80/20 as I was quoted 55/20 over the 40/10, I obviously took the opportunity. For a few days I had the stable readings you have seen although now my upload has began to drop even lower. Its now only 5000000kb/s attainable (the sync rate is actually HIGHER).

I am actually not sure which cabinet I am connected too. There is one cabinet however it doesn't appear to have it's FTTC counterpart. The engineer mentioned the cabinet being "just down the road" so I assume it's quite close.

I have removed the HH2 to remove all possibility of conflict, this has made no change.

Overall that is an accurate account.

Am not getting involved in the 'speed issues', just wanted to point out that the 'Fibre Cab' can be anywhere within 100mtrs of the existing 'Copper/Ali cab'. It doesn't neccesarily have to be sited right next to it. Just FYI. :)

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on April 19, 2012, 10:07:20 PM

Quote from: Black Sheep on April 19, 2012, 07:09:22 PM

Am not getting involved in the 'speed issues', just wanted to point out that the 'Fibre Cab' can be anywhere within 100mtrs of the existing 'Copper/Ali cab'. It doesn't neccesarily have to be sited right next to it. Just FYI. :)

That point is always worth stressing.  :thumbs:

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 20, 2012, 01:26:00 PM

Since the 80/20 uplift the actual upstream rate has dropped to 5000000.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 20, 2012, 02:30:10 PM

Quote from: ben1066 on April 20, 2012, 01:26:00 PM

Since the 80/20 uplift the actual upstream rate has dropped to 5000000.

and what is the attainable rate now, both up and down?

the fact that the actual upstream rate is such a round number (5000000) suggests that it is a bandwidth cap.

cheers, a

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: ben1066 on April 20, 2012, 05:52:25 PM

It's now changed, again:

Code: [Select]

Channel Status Upstream Downstream
Actual Net Data Rate 4908000 kbps 38276000 kbps
Actual Interleave Delay 0 ms 975 ms
Actual INP 0 Symbols 30 Symbols
Attainable Net Data Rate 5228652 kbps 44221344 kbps
Transmit Power 115 dBm 26 dBm

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on April 20, 2012, 08:44:27 PM

I feel a peculiar sensation when looking at two of those lines and the claimed units --

Quote

Actual Net Data Rate         4908000 kbps   38276000 kbps
 . . .
Attainable Net Data Rate   5228652 kbps   44221344 kbps

 :-\   :help:

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: asbokid on April 21, 2012, 03:41:04 AM

Quote from: burakkucat on April 20, 2012, 08:44:27 PM

I feel a peculiar sensation when looking at two of those lines and the claimed units --

Quote

Actual Net Data Rate         4908000 kbps   38276000 kbps
 . . .
Attainable Net Data Rate   5228652 kbps   44221344 kbps

 :-\   :help:

:no:  I hadn't even noticed!

The actual rates shouldn't be rounded like that, either.

It looks like some naughty programmer has done an integer divide by 1000 (why not 1024??)  on the bitrate and later a 1000x multiplication (ostensibly to restore the original unit of measure).  That would introduce the 'roundiness' to those numbers, as well as losing all that precision.

In summary, the web GUI of the ECI does not display reliable information.  The response pipe from dsl_cpe_control is the more trustworthy source of line stat data..

hmm...

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.picturepush.com%2Fphoto%2Fa%2F8083279%2F640%2F8083279.jpg&hash=a2257f12306aef6bbeb1bfe361958bb33491df4d)
Naughty Programmer
 (http://picturepush.com/public/8083279)

cheers, a

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: openreach dude on June 14, 2012, 09:17:09 PM

Quote from: bluebeanbandit on April 11, 2012, 04:00:48 PM

seems pretty clear to me by the description that it aint been done right.  There is no such thing as unorthodox its either done right or done wrong and that is done wrong.  Filters on a VDSL circuit, dont think so!  The SSFP should be doing all the filtering as it should be at the first (master) socket, if you've got an SSFP where an extension should be then it defeats the purpose.

I joined specifically to answer to your comment. Firstly, without seeing the work yourself you are in no position to tell anyone whether the installation was done correctly/incorrectly. Secondly  the engineer may have bypassed the main socket crimping it through to the secondary socket, making that the master. Im not even going to get into the time given for the install and amount given to the engineer on a daily basis. A little bit harsh to hang draw and quarter and engineer without getting any photo proof at least. No offence to the OP but he may know absolutely nothing to do with anything telecoms/broadband related.  Backwiring does happen when and end to end test has been done, certainly by myself anyway. And i have no early life failures or complaints.

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on June 15, 2012, 03:53:07 AM

Welcome to the Kitz fora, Openreach Dude.

You will have seen from that minor interaction with BBB that we are a cat and Openreach Engineer friendly site.

Unfortunately the OP never provided the requested pictures and so, to this day, no opinion has been formed (by the regular members here) regarding that installation . . .  :no:

Is there anything that you could possibly tell us -- in the Introductions (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/board,11.0.html) forum, please -- about yourself and your area of expertise within Openreach?

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: openreach dude on June 15, 2012, 08:53:57 AM

Quote from: burakkucat on June 15, 2012, 03:53:07 AM

Welcome to the Kitz fora, Openreach Dude.

You will have seen from that minor interaction with BBB that we are a cat and Openreach Engineer friendly site.

Unfortunately the OP never provided the requested pictures and so, to this day, no opinion has been formed (by the regular members here) regarding that installation . . .  :no:

Is there anything that you could possibly tell us -- in the Introductions (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/board,11.0.html) forum, please -- about yourself and your area of expertise within Openreach?

Hi, i have posted an intro, the site does seem to be OR friendly which is always good to see. Seems to be quite a bit of expertise on this forum as it is :)

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on June 15, 2012, 10:03:36 PM

Quote

Seems to be quite a bit of expertise on this forum as it is :)

You'll also find that we are willing to learn new techniques or tips.  :)

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: kitz on June 15, 2012, 11:29:03 PM

Quote from: burakkucat on June 15, 2012, 10:03:36 PM

You'll also find that we are willing to learn new techniques or tips.  :)

Seconded :)

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: Black Sheep on June 16, 2012, 07:53:00 AM

Thirded ..... (is that a word ??).  ;D

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: burakkucat on June 16, 2012, 10:43:32 PM

Why not?  ;)  8)

(Some years ago I worked with a gentleman from the Emerald Isle, who once said to a customer "B*cat has divided the hard disk into three equal halves for you." Clearly his use of "halves" was intended to be equivalent to "portions" or "parts" . . . )

Title: Re: Concerned with Openreach FTTC install
Post by: kitz on June 17, 2012, 01:32:31 AM

 :lol: