Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Blackeagle on March 10, 2012, 09:07:13 PM
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I understand that this is a 'pair quality' test.
Does anyone know why it would fail with a "test status - Tone Alignment Failed" message ?
Its part of the BTOR closeout tests, the first one actually !
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Hello Blackeagle. Welcome to the Kitz forum.
What with Bald_Eagle1, Black Sheep and myself as the grumpy old black cat, it seems you have chosen an appropriate identity! ;)
As to the failure of the Pair Quality test, I assume you would like to know exactly what that failure message implies? I'm not going to make any guesses but i'll just say that perhaps Black Sheep will be able to educate us . . . when he next passes by. :-\
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Gentlefolk,
1. To provide a little more information and a picture TCPR has discussed this subject on the TalkTalk forums, but without apparent resolution.
http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/69/35/81503569/photos/BTs-Test-Equiptment-BTs-Test-Equiptment-BT/DSC00047.jpg
2. This document mentions symbol alignment
http://www.broadband-forum.org/technical/download/TR-033.pdf
A.9.2.5 R-QUIET3/R-REVERB2 symbol alignment
[G.992.2] allows the ATU-R to shorten the last symbol of R-QUIET3 by any number of samples to
obtain frame alignment between transmitter and receiver.
3. This document talks about phase alignment on page 5
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sbws014/sbws014.pdf
4. See Page 8 for various alignment topics
http://www.jdsu.com/ProductLiterature/DSAM_6000_datasheet.pdf
Kind regards,
Walter
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I understand that this is a 'pair quality' test.
Does anyone know why it would fail with a "test status - Tone Alignment Failed" message ?
Its part of the BTOR closeout tests, the first one actually !
Hi and welcome.
I'm afraid I can't give a technical reason as to why the 'Tone algnment' failure occurs. What I can tell you, is that it only happens with EXFO testers, not JDSU's. As a JDSU user, I've never seen the message personally, but have had to ring engineers to ask why they haven't managed to carry out a succesful PQT ?? (as this is just one of the millions of measure we have to meet). Their reply is generally about 'Tone alignment' failure.
I believe there is a 'fix' in place now.
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Thanks guys, no doubt I'll be back with more queries when I can finally get my line FTTC'd !! New cab is in & connected to PCP and judging by the fresh tarmac, connected to the mains. Waits................
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Jammy buggar ;D Where r u based Mr Eagle ??
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East Yorkshire, exchange code is MYBNN for those that want to look it up.
Samknows has an RFS date of 01/03/12 but a friendly OR engineer who did an install a couple of weeks ago, said that the date for all the new cabs to be fitted was 12/03, tomorrow in fact !!
Some of the cabs are already live as a quick check of BT's database reveals my brother can get it now >:(
Funnily enough (talktalk LLU line), if I check my address on the BT infinity page it says it can't find any details for my address. Two weeks ago it was telling me I could only have BT total broadband !! dslchecker still shows this though.
Not that I'm impatient or anything, but I have to admit I check every day :-[ :D :D
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I reiterate ...... jammy buggar. :lol:
Do you know approximately how far from the Cab your house is ?? Or, have you already been provided with an estimated speed for FTTC ??
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No, I haven't yet got an estimated speed. Sadly the cab is not as close as I would have liked as its 500-600 metres away. Even so, I reckon I will still see a decent improvement, as I've currently got a 39dB line, which gets battered by noise in the evenings, a good 3-4dB of it, meaning I can't run any lower than a 9dB profile. Currently I'm getting 9534kbps which I don't think is too shabby. I'm hoping that most of this noise is generated on the run from the PCP back to the exchange.
If I can treble that, I'd be one happy eagle. If I can get over 27, I'd be chuffed to bits.
Just need really to decide whether to jump back to BT, or stay with TT. Infinity option 2 actually works out £20 per year cheaper than TT's unlimited offering, but I'm out of contract with them so I should be able to negotiate a decent deal. I'd probably get it quicker though by jumping back to BT and BT's upstream speed is really tempting.
Decisions decisions :D
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It's nice to be in a position to decide whether to opt for BT's 2Meg, or 10Me Upstream Speeds. ;D
Dependant on your cable poundage, 500mtrs of distance should see you above the 35Meg synch connection. Fingers crossed.
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Wow, excellent news.
I wasn't expecting it to be as good as that 8)
I know my brother, if he gets it, will be very close to the full 40 as its a good 80 metres to his cab :lol:
I'll keep you all updated when I can finally order it as to what my estimated speed is and what I actually get when its fitted.
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I have electronically measured (with a Tester 301C) the distance to the DSLAM in the FTTC at precisely 400 metres for my neighbours BT Infinity service. That tallies with the distance calculated by the use of a map & a map measurer and also with what Google Maps deem it to be.
Gordon's (my neighbour) line was regarded as an example of a good line, when we first started to quantify and obtain metrics for VDSL2 last year. So, for example, I attach images of Gordon's line when using the original 8c profile and the more recent 17a. All being well, I would expect you to achieve similar sync speeds . . . but just a tad less.
Take a look at the pbParams, the reported maximum rate and the current capped rate (lines 5 & 6) --
# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 24809 Kbps, Downstream rate = 73424 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 10000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 39998 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3939)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3939)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 24809 kbps 73424 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 6.9 dBm 13.1 dBm
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 3.6 20.9 30.7 N/A 10.8 26.4 39.8
Signal Attenuation(dB): 10.6 20.1 29.7 N/A 10.8 26.4 39.8
SNR Margin(dB): 23.4 22.0 22.2 N/A 15.8 15.9 15.8
TX Power(dBm): -4.4 -26.6 6.6 N/A 9.8 8.2 6.7
[attachment deleted by admin]
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thanks b*cat, that looks really positive for me then.
I have measured the distance by car (its an import so the odometer is in Kms) at 600 metres and google maps walking directions also says 600m, so I'm taking that as a good ballpark figure for the distance.
When I get my install, I'm hoping to be able to get it done when I'm not at work and will be plying the OR engineer with tea & biscuits in the hope of getting some stats out of him. Needless to say, as long as its the Huawei modem, I shall be getting my own stats ;D
Having reviewed some other threads on here, I'm just hoping that theres only one eagle on here with a dodgy line !! Time will tell.
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Hi Blackeagle,
Having reviewed some other threads on here, I'm just hoping that theres only one eagle on here with a dodgy line !! Time will tell.
Yes, hopefully it won't be a case of birds of a feather flock together ;)
The installing engineer should check your new FTTC connection with a JDSU or similar meter.
Not all engineers actually let the end user see the stats, even though they know the OR HG612 & the ECI modems are officially locked.
A cynic could think that BT has something to hide about the state of its infrastructure ::)
Anyway, I have attached a photo of a JDSU display at installation (not my own connection), that also displays the electronically calculated line length from the cabinet.
I do not have that detail for my own connection's installation, however it has been variously reported by visiting engineers as 820m, 900m, 1000m, 1100m, which suggests to me that (possibly intermittently) there may be a HR (high resistance) issue on my D-side cabling.
I tried, but failed to get last week's visiting engineer to run a TDR test that may possibly have confirmed an ongoing issue (or not).
Hopefully, your line length will be reported as the 600m you believe it to be.
You might have to specifically ask/insist that the engineer tells you.
If it is reported as much more than 600m (allowing for any usual detours/cables running up & down poles etc), then.......... join the club.
I for one will be very interested to see your installation stats along with details of any ongoing changes over the first few days/weeks/months.
Assuming you are a Windows user, I presume you already know how to grab the ongoing & snapshot stats etc. & if a Linux user, the snapshot graphs only (for the time being).
The Windows scripts apparently also work fine in a VM on a Linux box, but I have no idea how/if they work at all on a Mac.
Have any Mac users tried them out yet?
Cheers,
Paul.
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Hi Blackeagle,
Having reviewed some other threads on here, I'm just hoping that theres only one eagle on here with a dodgy line !! Time will tell.
Yes, hopefully it won't be a case of birds of a feather flock together ;)
The installing engineer should check your new FTTC connection with a JDSU or similar meter.
Not all engineers actually let the end user see the stats, even though they know the OR HG612 & the ECI modems are officially locked.
A cynic could think that BT has something to hide about the state of its infrastructure ::)
Anyway, I have attached a photo of a JDSU display at installation (not my own connection), that also displays the electronically calculated line length from the cabinet.
I do not have that detail for my own connection's installation, however it has been variously reported by visiting engineers as 820m, 900m, 1000m, 1100m, which suggests to me that (possibly intermittently) there may be a HR (high resistance) issue on my D-side cabling.
I tried, but failed to get last week's visiting engineer to run a TDR test that may possibly have confirmed an ongoing issue (or not).
Hopefully, your line length will be reported as the 600m you believe it to be.
You might have to specifically ask/insist that the engineer tells you.
If it is reported as much more than 600m (allowing for any usual detours/cables running up & down poles etc), then.......... join the club.
I for one will be very interested to see your installation stats along with details of any ongoing changes over the first few days/weeks/months.
Assuming you are a Windows user, I presume you already know how to grab the ongoing & snapshot stats etc. & if a Linux user, the snapshot graphs only (for the time being).
The Windows scripts apparently also work fine in a VM on a Linux box, but I have no idea how/if they work at all on a Mac.
Have any Mac users tried them out yet?
Cheers,
Paul.
nice snips matey!
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"Not all engineers actually let the end user see the stats, even though they know the OR HG612 & the ECI modems are officially locked".
Not quite true BE. I reckon if you carried out a straw-poll that 98% of engineers wouldn't have a clue about the Huwaei/ECI modems being 'Locked'. I don't wish this to sound confrontational, but it's not in their remit to know. The official line we work to is, run an Eclipse test once the VDSL Modem is installed, and the results we get back from that (via an SMS) are the ones that matter.
We are told not to perform a 'Throughput Speedtest' due to the many and varied results given. We are supposed to demo 'streaming', such as BBC i-Player.
I personally have never seen any kind of memo stating we haven't to show JDSU/EXFO readings to the EU's. In stark contrast to this myth, I always get the EU involved and explain what the various tests are doing, and what the results mean. I have had great feedback to my gaffer as a result of this. Not that I'm trying to court ass-licking, I just enjoy trying to inform people of how BB works (obviously in laymans terms). Not everyone wants to hear it, but the vast majority do.
On the back of that, I don't think you can demand to see results from the engineers tester, as if somebody tried that with me, I'd be quite stand-offish about it. There are ways, and there are ways of requesting to see the information, and as mooted, I can't for the life in me understand why any engineer would treat it as anything other than genuine interest and offer up the relevant information.
;D
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Cheers BS,
having corresponded with you previously, in my "other" thread, I am aware that you and the original FTTC installation engineer appear to be of the same ilk.
He was very chatty & informative & explained everything he was doing.
It was all a bit alien to me at that time as my previous ADSLMAX connection had only once exceeded 1Mb (due to distance from the exchange) & I had no idea whatsoever regarding stats, attenuation, SNR etc. etc.
Prior to that I was on a 0.5Mb fixed rate & prior to that I was classed as too far from the exchange to have anything other than dialup.
He was more than willing to show me his gadget. (I didn't have a clue what a JDSU was at that time).
He didn't mention my distance from the cabinet & unfortunately, I didn't ask.
Unfortunately, I didn't make a note of the stats that he showed me.
How I now wish I had done so.
My most important memory of his visit is that he told me the connection had synced at around 35Mb, which looked about right for the distance.
We didn't look at any 'streaming', but he suggested we have a look at Namesco bbmax speed test.
That returned 1Mb DS & 1.67Mb US.
As my ISP is Plusnet, I had already been informed that they do not adjust profiles from ADSL to FTTC speeds until the installation engineer has confirmed a successful installation.
He must have confirmed that just after he left as within 1 hour I was seeing 33Mb download speeds.
That was on the original 8c profile, using my own shielded 20m "high speed data" extension cable to relocate the master socket instead of the BT "data extension" kit as it was apparently better quality than the cable the engineer had in his van.
I reckon if you carried out a straw-poll that 98% of engineers wouldn't have a clue about the Huwaei/ECI modems being 'Locked'.
Really? That genuinely surprises me.
Mind you, it could explain why none of the visiting engineers have subsequently expressed any sign of surprise when I have showed them the stats as displayed in the modem's GUI.
I'm sure no memos exist that state that end users must not be allowed to see the stats from a JDSU/EXFO.
However, from my "other" thread, you have seen me report that one engineer was happy for me to photograph the stats shown on his JDSU on arrival, but on his return from doing something at the cabinet refused to let me even see the stats, never mind photograph them.
He actually told me he could lose his job if anyone found out that he had let me see the stats!
Perhaps demanding to see the stats is too strong a description.
Perhaps being insistently persuasive may be be a better description?
However, from an end user's perspective, unless we mess about & "illegally" unlock the modems, how on earth are we supposed to know how a connection is performing (at least at installation) when faced with an engineer who point-blank refuses to tell us/show us the stats?
Paul.
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Both B S & B E should be quite interested in this link in the adjacent article:-
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,10846.0.html
In particular the final paragraphs. Now if the end user has access to the modem's 17a profile it will be immediately obvious that a line such as Paul's, together with its history, is unsuitable for an upgraded saving the CP and BT O a significant amount of effort.
K R
Walter
PS I too applaud B S's approach re explanations & data provision to the end user.
He might even end up with a slightly larger girth from all the bacon butties too !
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nice snips matey!
Eh, what?
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Hi BE
Thanks for the plaudits, re- being likened to one of the other engineers you received. I suppose it's just down to individuals mannerisms at the end of the day ??
I'm genuinely as surprised as you are regarding 'Locked-down modem awareness', but with regard to viewing JDSU/EXFO stats ??!! Anybody can purchase one of these beasts and conduct there own tests, so why should any 'cloak & dagger' enter into it ?? Add to that, the modems have been 'cracked' anyway, giving up just as much information as what the meters do. I really do fail to see the apparent secrecy surrounding the Manchester lads way of working.
I can only assume that the taking of photographs may come across as dubious, to an already suspicious engineering workforce ?? When you are constantly being told you must do better, or else !! (Performance Management - AKA - The Sacking Tool) ...... and as well as having to work in a quality manner (as we have regular audits whereby ..... yup, you could get sacked if you've made a faux-pas), crack off approx 4-5 jobs a day, and not get any of them re-reported again within 28 days or ..... (I think you get the gist ?). As well as having to keep on top of your stores (for a multi-skilled engineer, this is immense), keep visits to the Exchange down to a minimum, spend literally hours on the phone trying to get co-op from our 'Support Services' ................. I could go on and on, honestly.
I'm well aware there are worse jobs out there, but for the industry we are in there are too many variables to be able to pin a bog-standard time to a task. I'm also aware there has to be performance indicators and statistics, highlighting where the issues lie. But we have so many to meet that they are actually contradictory in some cases. For example, we have a RARA index re- telephoning the EU (Ring ahead-Ring after). Thats great, but then we get a rollocking for overspending the allocated budget !!! Another is 'Idle Tasks', these are built on occasions where there isn't the work available for an engineer. He will have an 'Idle Task' built whereby he will go to an Exchange and perform some on-line documentation. Great ...... but we get a rollicking if we spend too much time in the Exchange ??!! It's madness to the 'nth' degree.
So <deep breath icon>, if the engineer was getting twitchy when you whipped out a camera, I can maybe see how they would be retisant. especially if they are new to Broadband/VDSL as the training isn't what it could be.
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Whew, I think I'll have to go with bacon butties rather than biscuits and a jotter rather than a camera :lol:
On a more serious note & to answer a few of the earlier queries, yes Paul, Win 7, I'm not posh enough for a Mac. I have in fact already downloaded your scripts in eager anticipation, and as long as its not the ECI, the modem will be unlocked as soon as the engineer has left !! I might even go as far as to have an unlocked one waiting in my wings ;)
I've always monitored my connection in the past (I'm sad that way) with a variety of routers and a variety of methods. Indeed you can check out my current stats at http://blackeagle.no-ip.info:81
I will certainly post up the initial line stats and start recording them as soon as possible, if only to have evidence right from the start, should I be unfortunate to suffer as you have.
BS, sounds a bit like where I work. It never ceases to amaze me that I am expected to repair things without actually buying any parts for them to do it with. Our conversations generally go along the lines of :-
"I need part x for machine y and its gonna be £180"
"Oooh, thats dear, have you rung around for the cheapest quote?"
"Yep and thats the cheapest option"
"Oh, well......." (boss looks at budget spreadsheet on PC ::))"....Well, the spares budget for this month is already spent!!"
"Do you want it fixing or not?"
"Yes of course I do"
"Then I need to buy the parts"
"Yes, but the budget........"
At this point I usually go off and bang my head on a wall for a bit :lol:
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nice snips matey!
Eh, what?
I was referring to the side cutters in your picture of the Tester but I guess the moment has gone... :-[
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***** UPDATE *****
Today I have spoken to both BT & Talktalk regarding a fibre upgrade. Although I like BT's upstream speed and lack of installation fee (on option 2), TT were able to offer me 1/2 price lie rental for 12 months, free installation and reduced cost for unlimited download.
I therefore have an install date 0f 1/4/12 (7 days from now) in the afternoon.
Current stats can be seen from here (http://blackeagle.no-ip.info:81) and I will update with engineers stats (if possible) and my own as soon as install is completed ;D
Should add that BT estimates my downstream at 33.5 and upstream at 5.9 although TT is currently capped at 2meg upstream >:(
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Thanks for the update, B*eagle.
Will you please edit your previous post and correct the broken link? Currently it is set as --
http://"http//blackeagle.no-ip.info:81%22
-- and not what you had obviously intended.
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Ta b*cat, links on here are formatted slightly differently to what I am used to, but I believe its sorted now :)
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Ta b*cat, links on here are formatted slightly differently to what I am used to, but I believe its sorted now :)
Still a problem for me, unfortunately. I eventually obtain a "Problem loading page. The connection has timed out. The server at blackeagle.no-ip.info is taking too long to respond." error response. And it is consistently repeatable . . . :(
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Erm...... :-[ T'was a slight hitch with a misconfiguration on my router :-[
Link should be working now as I have checked using my phone and can browse to it on 3G. Hoping to be able to do something similar for my fibre stats as long as I get an unlockable modem. TT have changed my install date (boo!!) to a week on thursday. Gonna have to book half a day off work now so as to be home when the engineer comes, although I shouldn't complain as they gave me quite a good deal !
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Erm...... :-[ T'was a slight hitch with a misconfiguration on my router :-[
A minor mishap amongst friends is of no significance and soon forgotten. ::)
Ooh . . . graphs that automagically refresh. What ever you do, don't let your fellow bird-of-prey (Baldy) see them -- otherwise he will start developing grand plans to display his own. :P
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I'm going mad with these aliases !!! :wall: :wall: I genuinely thought I was Black Eagle there for a minute. ???
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I'm going mad with these aliases !!! :wall: :wall: I genuinely thought I was Black Eagle there for a minute. ???
:o :lol: :lol:
Not quite sure what my missus would make of that !!
A minor mishap amongst friends is of no significance and soon forgotten. ::)
Ooh . . . graphs that automagically refresh. What ever you do, don't let your fellow bird-of-prey (Baldy) see them -- otherwise he will start developing grand plans to display his own. :P
There was some php to pull stats from a logfile and write it to the page. Upstream SNR, dsl uptime, that sort of thing, but I can't generate the required logfile with the TG router, so its currently commented out :(
Currently, you can clearly see my SNR steadily dropping over the last half hour.
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Ha ha ...... best not to bother her with it then bud. ;D I've got my own mad ewe, and that's enough. ;) ;D
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Currently, you can clearly see my SNR steadily dropping over the last half hour.
Unfortunately I was not present and able to observe your graphs at that time. It certainly now looks quite "flat" and stable. By how much did it drop? And could it not have just been the start of the "hours of darkness" RFI that has caused the SNRM depression?
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Ooh . . . graphs that automagically refresh. What ever you do, don't let your fellow bird-of-prey (Baldy) see them -- otherwise he will start developing grand plans to display his own. :P
Now there's a thought.......... :no:
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b*cat, it is most likely RFI that causes it. I'm well used to it now and the fact it drops by about 3.5dB each evening (currently its 5.4dB as I write this), so I'm on TT's 9dB profile as a 6 would make it drop due to the evening SNRM depression.
Having said all that, this TG is by far and away the most stable router on my line on a 24meg profile. Throughput is a little down on it and pings are atrocious to the router itself, but I've learnt to live with that.
VDSL in 9 days and counting...... 8)
Bald_Eagle1, watch this space ;D ;) ;)
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Bald_Eagle1, watch this space ;D ;) ;)
On a 500m-600m line you SHOULD get pretty decent speeds.
Good luck, not that luck should really have anything to do with it. ;)