Kitz Forum

Computers & Hardware => Hardware - Deals & Bargains => Topic started by: oldfogy on November 19, 2011, 10:07:40 AM

Title: Undelivered Goods
Post by: oldfogy on November 19, 2011, 10:07:40 AM
Just a heads up.

I ordered some bulk bottles of inks from 'Britannia Inks' who's address is in Somerset.
http://www.britanniainks.co.uk/
On the 6th Oct 2011 and as of today I have still not received the order.

With looking on-line at 'http://www.canyoutrustthem.com/index.php?go=search&adv=yes&company_name=2749' it seems there is another company in Somerset with either the same name or it's just a typo from the other people making complaints about also not receiving goods from this company, also one person is saying it seems to be a trend with this company and then it moves on.

I have now asked for a refund so will have to wait and see what happens, but no one else has ever been refunded when requested.
Fortunately it's not a lot of money (£17.93 GBP) but it obviously all mounts up if they are doing this on a full time basis.

I will be contacting Trading Standards, but that won't now be until monday.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: tuftedduck on November 19, 2011, 10:15:43 AM
Doesn't sound good, OF.

If you click on the "contact us" button on their webby, you get taken to http://www.britanniainks.co.uk/pages/Contact-Us.html  .....which reads as under.
Perhaps you are caught up in a back-log queue.

Quote :-

"http://www.britanniainks.co.uk/pages/Contact-Us.html

Contact Us

Please be aware we are suffering from a breakdown within the software we use to process the orders placed on our website, We have been told that the fix will be there within the next 3 weeks we deeply appolgise if anyone has been effected by this. As many of you know this is not the normal service you will get from us and for that we can only apologise.

The fastest way of contacting us will be by email you can fill in the contact from at the bottom of this page & you will get a reply within 24hrs. We are not a faceless business we are here for the long term and appreciate every customer we have.

Thank You

M Davies & L Hill


Address Details:
Unit 22GF, Lopen Business Park, Mill Lane, Lopen, Somerset, TA13 5JS"
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: UncleUB on November 19, 2011, 10:18:10 AM
Before I order anything online(if I don't know/have never used the company before)I always check their contact details,if there is no telephone contact(just an online email contact),then I will give them a wide berth.

I will if possible always try the contact telephone number as well before placing an order.


Looking at your link OF I can only see contact us by email,and their address is just a unit(which tbh could be anything)

I think you have done the best thing by contacting TS.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: oldfogy on November 19, 2011, 10:34:28 AM
If you look at the 'http://www.canyoutrustthem.com/index.php?go=search&adv=yes&company_name=2749' site although you need to be careful with the spelling of Britanniainks vs Brittaniainks and obviously there could even be other permutations of the name, also other people going back a while have also posted a copy of the same message.

Yes, likewise normally for a first order if there was a phone number I would have phoned them, or normally given them a wide berth for not having a phone number, but TBH they seem to be the only company still advertising the bulk ink so thought it was worth a shot, but it looks like I may have come unstuck.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 01, 2012, 07:48:51 PM
It can be useful to know the identity, and address, of the person behind the domain names, which may differ from the company's supposed trading address.  But a 'whois' lookup on britanniainks.co.uk yields

Quote
Registrant's address:
        The registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted to have their
        address omitted from the WHOIS service.

@OF, If it seems to you (as it does to me) that the registrant is in breach of rules by pretending to be 'a non-trading individual' then you can report them to www.nominet.org.uk .

Nominet take a dim view any such false declarations.   I reported a similar transgressor last year whilst chasing a dispute, and all it took was a phone call to the number on the nominet web page and a chat with a very helpful chap at Nominet, after which the matter was rectified (the addresses disclosed) within a day or so.  That allowed me to make good headway with resolving my dispute as I now knew where my opponent lived  >:D

Such false declaration might also add weight to any compliant to Trading Standards, so it may be worth taking a screenshot before reporting them to Nominet.  You can type 'whois' at the command line on Linux or OS/X, or just go to www.nominet.org.uk and put 'britanniainks.co.uk' into the whois lookup box.  Contact details are on the 'about us' link.


Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: oldfogy on January 01, 2012, 08:09:44 PM
I have already notified Somerset Trading Standards and also my bank, although the bank said they would probably refund the payment as the rules have now changed with regards to debit card payments but I have not heard back from either of them, although likewise I have not checked my account to see if it has been refunded by the bank yet.

But like I probably said originally they probably bank on it being a small purchase and think people will just write it of and now after already spending roughly another £3 or £4 phoning 0845 numbers I'm not prepared to spend any more on phone calls and will just make sure I never place a first order from a company other than by phone or from a personal  recommendation.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: AdrianH on January 02, 2012, 05:59:27 AM
You can report the false registration to Nominet via email, it need cost you nothing.

For cartridges I use an Amazon shop, the prices are great, next day delivery and I get Amazon support should I need it.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 02, 2012, 09:40:35 AM
I have already notified Somerset Trading Standards and also my bank, although the bank said they would probably refund the payment as the rules have now changed with regards to debit card payments but I have not heard back from either of them, although likewise I have not checked my account to see if it has been refunded by the bank yet.

But like I probably said originally they probably bank on it being a small purchase and think people will just write it of and now after already spending roughly another £3 or £4 phoning 0845 numbers I'm not prepared to spend any more on phone calls and will just make sure I never place a first order from a company other than by phone or from a personal  recommendation.

As Adrian said, you could still drop an email to nominet, and that may put a small spoke in the works for britanniainks.  But I sympathise... one needs to know where to stop when it comes to setting the world to rights, and the main thing is it looks like you'll get your £££ back.   :)

What annoys me about these scenarios is that, since it is only a small amount of cash, the bank may just refund your cash out of their own profits without pursuing the fraudsters (if that is what http://www.britanniainks.co.uk are).  It's often cheaper for them to do that than to pursue the offenders for justice.  And I seem to recall that these days, the police won't take action on credit card fraud unless the bank asks them to do so.

Let's hope the bank proves me wrong, and/or that trading standards can get justice done.

- 7LM
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: kitz on January 03, 2012, 02:24:12 PM
>>> the police won't take action on credit card fraud unless the bank asks them to do so.

I think youre right on that...  earlier in the year when I had identity fraud type problems (someone did fraud on my address and several of my neighbours addresses all in a row to obtain a total of about £60k).  We had dreadful problems trying to get Lloyds TSB to do something about it, but they were totally apathetic and didnt do stuff all.  Even though the police were involved, they couldnt get much joy from Lloyds TSB in the way of being pro-active communication, and in the end the police couldnt do anything more without the Bank being prepared to press charges.  Makes you think doesnt it when they are happy to just write off £60,000 rather than getting involved with the police and stopping the fraud.

@ OF

I do hope you get some sort of resolution.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: camallison on January 03, 2012, 06:34:54 PM
The banks won't chase the perpetrators since the odds on recovery are very low.  Instead, they need to make card-not-present (CNP) transactions more secure and I am aware of a bank mentioned in this thread is trialling something that should solve the problem.  See http://www.electrans.com/homepay-chip-and-pin-at-home/what-is-homepay/

Colin

PS - it nails down the the 3 criteria necessary for a secure transaction .... card holder present, card present, and location.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: silversurfer44 on January 03, 2012, 08:02:05 PM
That link looks very interesting Colin. The only thing not mentioned is possible cost, to the consumer that is.
It sure would make it more difficult for fraud.

As long as it works with Linux of course.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 03, 2012, 08:14:57 PM
I agree it would be good if the banks did more to make things secure.   The trouble is, it can be argued, the main reason they introduced chip & pin was not for the customer's benefit it all, it simply provided a smokescreen to reduce their own liability in the case of CC fraud.  By demonstrating to the satisfaction a court that they had made things 'secure' they can avoid their responsibility to compensate customers for fraud.   The spin (by the banks) often goes...

Quote
With the advent of chip & pin, we have made CC transactions TOTALLY secure.  Therefore, if somebody stole cash from your account, YOU must have told them the PIN number and therefore YOU must be to blame, so we won't be re-imbursing you.

We all know that's total garbage, it transpired there were lots of ways villains could find out a PIN number, but it hasn't stopped the banks from 'trying it on'.  Personally I feel quite sure that's what motivated them all along, rather than any genuine wish to make things more secure.  If they REALLY wanted to make things more secure, they could start by spreading the message that villains will always be pursued and prosecuted, no matter what the cost, and no matter what impact it has on senior staff bonuses.   >:(

Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: asbokid on January 05, 2012, 02:35:38 AM
>>> the police won't take action on credit card fraud unless the bank asks them to do so.

I think youre right on that...  earlier in the year when I had identity fraud type problems (someone did fraud on my address and several of my neighbours addresses all in a row to obtain a total of about £60k).  We had dreadful problems trying to get Lloyds TSB to do something about it, but they were totally apathetic and didnt do stuff all.  Even though the police were involved, they couldnt get much joy from Lloyds TSB in the way of being pro-active communication, and in the end the police couldnt do anything more without the Bank being prepared to press charges.  Makes you think doesnt it when they are happy to just write off £60,000 rather than getting involved with the police and stopping the fraud.

Many of the banking frauds involve insiders.

When we lived in Liverpool, an insider in the Oxford Street branch of NatWest in the city centre was busy looting accounts, including my own.  We suspect the bank insider worked with an accomplice who presented counter cheques to the the 'right' cashier, and pretended to be the account holder.   It must have been a lucrative fraud.

The first I knew of it was from a series of phone calls from a vulgar and abrasive "fraud investigator" from NatWest.  He basically accused me of being part of the scam and demanded to know my whereabouts on certain dates.

I started to wonder how someone could impersonate me.  Why hadn't the cashier demanded to see identification before handing over my money to a complete stranger?  Oxford Street is a very busy branch, far too busy for staff to recognise the customers personally.   So why had a counter cheque been accepted without any corroborating identification, such as a driving licence, etc?

Eventually, I figured that the cashier knew the fraudster and must have been a willing accomplice in the fraud.   I pressed the investigator on this and he started to clam up, which gave the game away!  Busted!  Inside Job!

Thieving in NatWest? Fancy that! And there was me thinking the dishonesty was confined to the NatWest boardroom.

Eventually, many months later, NatWest reluctantly agreed that they were responsible for the fraud and my stolen money was refunded in full, very belatedly.

The final nail in the coffin for this ghastly bank was when I demanded a simple (verbal) apology for the inconvenience and distress caused by the bank's disgraceful negligence.

But nope! I was told that it wasn't NatWest policy to apologise!

Is that so?  Well I'll just keep telling this story, twenty times a year! Strike #1 and we are barely in to January!
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: asbokid on January 05, 2012, 03:34:18 AM
they need to make card-not-present (CNP) transactions more secure and I am aware of a bank mentioned in this thread is trialling something that should solve the problem.  See http://www.electrans.com/homepay-chip-and-pin-at-home/what-is-homepay/

Colin

PS - it nails down the 3 criteria necessary for a secure transaction .... card holder present, card present, and location.

That looks like a standard CAP card reader with a mini-USB plug.

In 2009, a team working under esteemed Univ of Cambridge security engineer and Icelandic anti-banking hero, Ross Anderson, presented a critical paper about these card readers.

Anderson's team claimed that the (secret) CAP protocol and the implementations of the protocol that they found in these card readers are a load of smelly old pants:

Quote
Abstract.

The Chip Authentication Programme (CAP) has been introduced by banks in Europe to deal with the soaring losses due to online banking fraud. A handheld reader is used together with the customer’s debit card to generate one-time codes for both login and transaction authentication. The CAP protocol is not public, and was rolled out without any public scrutiny. We reverse engineered the UK variant of card readers and smart cards and here provide the first public description of the protocol. We found numerous weaknesses that are due to design errors such as reusing authentication tokens, overloading data semantics, and failing to ensure freshness of responses. The overall strategic error was excessive optimisation. There are also policy implications. The move from signature to PIN for authorising point-of-sale transactions shifted liability from banks to customers; CAP introduces the same problem for online banking. It may also expose customers to physical harm.

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg252.imageshack.us%2Fimg252%2F6040%2Fcardfraud.png&hash=b9c49b4970350a439c7e14fc252984cbd9a61c48)

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2009/10/26/card-reader-vulnerabilitie/
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sjm217/papers/fc09optimised.pdf




Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: camallison on January 05, 2012, 09:39:26 AM
Asbokid - agree with what you say about what Ross's team discovered.  Without revealing anything, this device overcomes that by NOT being a standard CAP reader.  Subject closed.

Colin
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 05, 2012, 10:49:16 AM
Well let's hope the homepay protocol is released for public scrutiny.  By doing so, clever academics and millions of well-intentioned volunteers, can examine it and identify any vulnerabilities so that they are fixed before deployment.

Conversely, if homepay security depends upon keeping the protocol a secret, then I fear it will be intrinsically insecure as 'secrets' have a habit of escaping.

- 7LM
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: BritBrat on January 05, 2012, 11:55:03 AM

We all know that's total garbage, it transpired there were lots of ways villains could find out a PIN number, but it hasn't stopped the banks from 'trying it on'.  Personally I feel quite sure that's what motivated them all along, rather than any genuine wish to make things more secure.  If they REALLY wanted to make things more secure, they could start by spreading the message that villains will always be pursued and prosecuted, no matter what the cost, and no matter what impact it has on senior staff bonuses.   >:(

The onus is on the bank to prove you gave the key out, very hard to do so customers should still get refunded.

I still have a  chip and signature card because of the stance the banks take on chip and pin.
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: camallison on January 05, 2012, 12:00:47 PM
Well let's hope the homepay protocol is released for public scrutiny.  By doing so, clever academics and millions of well-intentioned volunteers, can examine it and identify any vulnerabilities so that they are fixed before deployment.

Conversely, if homepay security depends upon keeping the protocol a secret, then I fear it will be intrinsically insecure as 'secrets' have a habit of escaping.

- 7LM

Already extensively worked on by white hats (well-intentioned volunteers and clever academics) as I understand.

Colin
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 05, 2012, 12:35:01 PM
Already extensively worked on by white hats (well-intentioned volunteers and clever academics) as I understand.

Colin

Then they'll have nothing to fear from publishing it.  :)
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: burakkucat on January 05, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
Already extensively worked on by white hats (well-intentioned volunteers and clever academics) as I understand.

Colin

Then they'll have nothing to fear from publishing it.  :)

Absolutely.  ;D
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: asbokid on January 05, 2012, 09:08:30 PM
The onus is on the bank to prove you gave the key out, very hard to do so customers should still get refunded.

The Chip & Pin scheme has nothing to do with improving security.

It is the Banks' attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the Customer in cases of fraud.

Quote
Liability shift

Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (CIBC) spokesman Rob McLeod said in relation to a $81,276 fraud case: “our records show that this was a chip-and-PIN transaction. This means [the customer] personal card and personal PIN number were used in carrying out this transaction. As a result, [the customer] is liable for the transaction.
The Globe and Mail, 14 Jun 2011

https://media.defcon.org/dc-19/presentations/Barisani-Bianco-Laurie-Franken/DEFCON-19-Barisani-Bianco-Laurie-Franken.pdf

To avoid liability for fraudulent transactions, the Banks are routinely telling the courts that Chip & Pin is uncrackable. Any frauds, say the Banks, must, by definition, be due to customer negligence.

But that is manifestly untrue.

There are countless weaknesses in Chip & Pin, and in its implementations.

Here's another published paper from 2010, from Professor Anderson's team working on Chip & Pin flaws:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sjm217/papers/oakland10chipbroken.pdf

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg39.imageshack.us%2Fimg39%2F2940%2Fcardpay2.png&hash=fe50cb345027834398f78ea83a0f630e4572e1e5)

Many more flaws remain hidden, thanks to the Banks themselves.  The Courts are often used to gag academics like Anderson who were going to reveal more weaknesses in the scheme.

Nothing to hide, nothing to fear?

Embedded devices are inherently untrustworthy. They offer numerous vectors of attack. Who makes the final build of the embedded firmware? Who audits the firmware images for "inconsistencies" before they are rolled out? Who burns the firmware to ROM?  Where is that done? In some faceless fab facility, out of sight and away from scrutiny?

Many software backdoors are deliberately introduced by organised criminals who have weaseled their way into the build process. These backdoors are left dormant to be exploited only rarely to minimise detection.

This is not a problem that is unique to banking.  Politics also has a magnetic quality for criminals.

The electronic voting machines introduced in the 2001 US Presidential Election were highly dubious.  The directors of Diebold, the makers of one machine, were openly stating their support for presidential candidate George W. Bush.

And indeed, the Diebold machine was found to be riddled with flaws. Some of the flaws were almost certainly introduced deliberately.

Ultimately, it was shown that an attacker could log into the machine over 802.11 where the vote tallies for the candidates could be altered without leaving any audit trail.

In 2006, academics in the Netherlands made a mockery of the flaws in their voting machines by reflashing the firmware over a hacked wireless connection to the machine.  Instead of TouchScreen Voting Software, voters were presented with a chess game on the screen!

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

http://wijvertrouwenstemcomputersniet.nl/English
Title: Re: Undelivered Goods
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 05, 2012, 10:52:47 PM
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sjm217/papers/oakland10chipbroken.pdf

That is really quite a frightening paper    :o

It would be nice to think the banks would learn from it, but I doubt it.  Only a few months ago, I had mine call me up to discuss an insurance claim.  The call commenced with a request for me to answer their security questions.  I refused of course; you should never answer security questions on an incoming call. I protested vigorously that the call had exposed a security flaw,  they even put me onto a 'supervisor' to rant discuss.  But they genuinely didn't understand what they'd done wrong... their script simply said it was 'for my own protection' ...    :no:


Title: Re: Undelivered Goods (Update)
Post by: oldfogy on January 08, 2012, 12:38:08 AM
I received a letter from my bank Lloyds TSB on Saturday, basically stating they have reimbursing my account and are also in touch with the offending retailers bank.

OK, that's the gist of it but it's still a waiting game until my bank lets me know what if any further action is being taken.