Kitz Forum
Computers & Hardware => Other Technologies & Hardware => Topic started by: UncleUB on April 03, 2011, 03:02:44 PM
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I would be interested in what anyone thinks about these
http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=777_1&products_id=111254
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Considering how much normal ND filters cost, I would guess that this is too good to be true, but I'd like it to be true. :)
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I have and have used ND filters often enough and for the sorts of reason given in the blurb.....ie, to restrict the amount of light entering the lens thus calling for longer shutter speed with the resultant blurry effect on moving subjects such as waterfall, wind-blown flowers etc.
I have no experience of using a variable one.........the variability being to adjust the amount of light inhibition and thus the amount of blurriness,...... so I cannot comment on the performance of this guy.
However, I can make two caveats.
1) This is not a true ND filter.....it is in fact two polarising filters, a linear polariser set to rotate in front of a fixed circular polariser.
Now, a linear polariser can cause both exposure and focus problems on an auto-focus camera......and I just do not know if such problems could be eliminated with the addition of a front circulising pola.
I also don't know if this filter will then offer the normal and expected results you get with a "straight" polariser..ie colour saturation and elimination of reflections.
Will have to read up on this gizmo to find out.
2) There appears to be only one diameter available (55mm) so this could be fitted to other diameter lenses only by step-up or step-down rings.......all sorts of problems resulting from that
Does list item come in other sizes, unkyUb.
UnkyUb, if you are interested in adding filters to your range of goodies, we can have a chat about them if you wish.....and my first advice would be to not buy round ones but to go for a square format set, such as these http://www.cokin.co.uk/pages/cokinP.htm
The advantage being that with round ones you need one of each for each lens diameter......whereas with a square system you have one or more different purpose filters but only one for all diameters of lens... along with a variety of different sixed rings to hold them onto the lens
So, if you had say six lenses with different diameters you would want six polarisers (say) of different diameters.....expensive and a chore to lug around. But, with a square system you have one filter suitable for your biggest lens and a series of filter rings to hold it in place...much more economic and much easier to carry around.
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Thanks for the in depth info TD :)
2) There appears to be only one diameter available (55mm) so this could be fitted to other diameter lenses only by step-up or step-down rings.......all sorts of problems resulting from that
Does list item come in other sizes, unkyUb.
52mm right up to 86mm
http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/default.php?filterwords=7dayshop+Lens+Filter+-+Variable+ND&x=0&y=0&filterwordsalldb=1&r=20110331-2
I would like something that perhaps would cut haze down when taking landscape shots.
I think both my lens's are they same diameter (55mm)...I have just checked and they both have got 55 printed on them which is preceded by a circle with a diagonal straight line going through the circle(I take it this refers to the diameter)
What about these two for beginners to get started with(and keep the costs down) :)
http://www.mymemory.co.uk/Filters/Hama/Hama-Polarising-Filter-Circular---55mm
http://www.mymemory.co.uk/Filters/Hama/Hama-UV-Filter-UV-390-%28O-Haze%29---55mm
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I'm preparing a wee note on the subject of filters, UnkyUb........will be back soon. :)
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I'm preparing a wee note on the subject of filters, UnkyUb........will be back soon. :)
Will look forward to that TD,thanks. :)
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I don't know how serious you are about filters or how far down the road you want to go.
You can get filters with very little outlay, but at a cost in quality, or spend a great deal on them to get top quality.
I don't know your budget...but we can have a wee chat about the topic.
The serious landscape photographer will have four filters in his bag........more if you want to get into fancy colour effects, soft focus scenes etc. But lets stick with the basics for now.
The four to carry are :-
Haze or skykight
Polariser
Warm up
ND graduated...................and of these, for landscape work, this last is arguably the most important.
These are for colour work........black and white photographers will also have red, orange, and yellow contrast boosters.
The haze/skylight will keep a little of any mist out of the image but are used by most people as lens protectors.......screwed on full time they will protect the front lens element from knocks and scratches.
Such a filter will have no effect on exposure values.
The polariser when used properly will saturate colours and eliminate reflections. Also when set to their fullest power can act as a ND filter, holding back light by about two steps. At it's lowest power it will hold back light by about one stop, so
slower shutter speeds or wider apertures will come into play....a polariser will most times require you to use a tripod.
There are two types of polariser......linear and circular. This does not refer to their actual shape ( they are all round) but to the manner in which the light bending surface is applied to the glass.
For your camera, you would want a circular polariser.
Warm up filters do just that...warm up the scene.
If you take an image at noon on the hottest day of the year.......you are shooting in a very cold, blue light. The colour temperature of the light is very low. Imagine a sunset..all red and warm looking, high colour temperature. Midday blue, low
colour temperature.
The warm up counteracts that and brings the colours in the scene back to what the eye can see.
This filter does the same job as the white balance adjustment in your digicam can do. If you set the digicam white balance to the sunny icon, it will place a digital warm up filter over the image.
So, why is TD going on about buying a warm up filter if there is already the form of one in the camera ?
Well, it's quite simple. However cold or warm the light you are experiencing, however low or high is the colour temperature......the white balance control will apply the same amount of warm up on all occasions.
I prefer to control my own image result by switching off the camera white balance thing and applying my own degree of warm up........I have three warm up filters of varying strengths which I use singly or in combo to achieve that effect.
By the way, if you use a polariser filter in any temperature of light situation it will cool down the image. Most polariser user will also apply a warm up filter to the same image.
ND graduated filter...........to me, the most important, most used and most effective filter that the landscape photographer can have in his arsenal.
How often to you see landscapes where you have a perfectly exposed foreground...topped by a washed out sky. Or a beautiful vibrant sky with the supporting foreground being so dark that you cannot see any detail.
Banish such horrors to the dustbin of history........use an HD grad filter..
The problem is that the dynamic range of your ( my, all) camera is simply not wide enough to cope with the brightness of the sky and the relative darkness of the foreground at one and the same time. It cannot give a perfect exposure for two
extremely different lighting situations at the same time.......again, at mid day in mid summer, the sky can be as much as nine times brighter than the ground.
An ND graduated filter has a dark grey area at the top fading (graduation) to clear at the bottom. The trick is to adjust it so that the grey area covers the sky and the clear area covers the ground.....the grey holds back some of the light from the
sky and brings the whole into the camera esposure range again.......result (when used properly) perfectly exposed sky and foreground.
Again, the filters come in different strengths.......I have three 1 stop, 2 stop and 3 stop which I can use use singly or in combo to get the desired effect. Put a 3 stop job on when photographing in rain and gloom in Glencoe and be blown away with
the dramatic, dark, looming skies you get.!
Now then.....to buying filters.
There are two types of filter available....round ones which screw into the front of the lens and square/rectangular ones which are inserted into a holder itself screwed into the lens filter ring.
If you are happy to restrict yourself to haze/polariser/warm up filters then the round screw in ones are fine...............if you are going to go for ND gratuated instead or as well as...get the square ones in the holder.
Why does TD say this, I hear you cry.
Well..........with an ND grad, think of it's position if it is a round screw in one. It will always rest on the same point on the thread, and the graduated effect will therefore always be in the same position relative to the lens and thus the image.
However, with a square one in a holder,you can slide the filter up and down within the holder, rotate the holder, turn it on it'd side, turn it upside down. In other words, the square job in a holder gives an infinite amount of adjustment options that
the round, screw-in, static job just cannot do. And of course with this amount of adjustment, you can place the graduation just where you want it.
If then you want ND grads., buy square ones...and if you are going to the expense of buying square holder...you may as well have square filters for all needs, except for the haze/skylight. Get a round one and leave it on all the time as a protector.
Oh, and a polariser for use in a square holder will still be round......you rotate it to get the polarising effect.
There something to ponder over. ......... :)
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A veritable tour de force, TD. That will give him something to think about (me too). :)
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Thank you TD for going to such lengths to explain things to me,very much appreciated.
I am looking to not to spend too much,yet don't want to get poor quality.
The main thing I am looking for is something that will enhance my photos(which are probably 95% outdoor landscapes/pld buildings etc)without getting too serious.
I really like my DSLR camera but with having 2 lenses and switching between the 2 is sometimes a bit difficult as I always have my walking stick due to my walking difficulties,I wonder sometimes if I might have been better getting a fixed lens long zoom camera ,but thats another issue.
I think getting a haze/skylight one to use as a lens protector will be a must buy and then either a polariser/or an ND graduated one(which tbh had never heard of :-[ )
You mentioned a square lens holder(does that just screw onto your lens?)
Cost as already said is a bit of an issue,so if you could give me some pointers in the right direction I would be most grateful. :)
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I understand your concerns about cost.......I have recently received my bills in for the winter fuel consumptions...... :scare: :swoon: and am now on a very strict non-spending regime.. :D
Now a good quality polarising filter to suit your lenses is not cheap.......around £45.00 mark..............you can get cheaper ones but they tend to a mauve or magenta colour cast to the image.
The ND grad would be my first choice for "next filter".......much more useful than the pola.......so useful, in fact, that when landscaping, mine is never taken of
f the camera.
A ND graduated ( a 2 stop one which is a very good compromise for most situations will cost ( again for your lenses ) £22 for the filter, £5 for the holder and £10 for the ring that screws onto the lens and onto which you locate the holder. The filter then slots into the front of the holder........you can see what it looks like here...
I do remember the debate about which may be the best camera for you. I seem to remember suggesting that a waist mounted bum bag may be the thing for your gear. Slung round the waist with the bag to the front.........instant access to the bits and bobs, somewhere to put lenses etc whilst changing from one to the other, no strain on the shoulders, no need to put down on ground ....and somewhere to hang the stick whilst fiddling about.
edit to remove link which appears to be broken....am looking for another one. :blush:
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Any thoughts TD.......I know its not a Hoya or Cokin,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hama-Circular-Polarizer-Filter-55mm/dp/B00005KHTB/ref=dp_cp_ob_ce_title_3
ND filters.......quite a choice and price range
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_27?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=55mm+neutral+density+filter&sprefix=55mm+neutral+density+filter
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That little Hama polariser may well do the job.....and at a good price.
Hama is a reputable name and although I have not used one of these guys, from what I can see it is of sufficient quality to give good results without introducing a colour cast.
As you can see, the filter has two parts, each containing a round plate of glass. The rear portion is fixed into the lens screw thread and the front element rotates around that rear portion.
As you rotate the front element, the polarising effect gets stronger until you reach it's peak when with continuing rotation the effect decreases again. So you just rotate away until you get the effect you want.
The strongest effects are achieved when shooting at right angles to the sun.
Now, all these ND filters. Those are not the things I was talking of earlier. These are ND filters.......we want ND graduated filters, a different beast for a different job.
See attached pics..........the first of a square ND graduated filter...note the grey zone at the top graduating to clear at the bottom.
The second pic. illustrates the "system".............two rings with different sized flanges to screw into the lens filter thread ( you only need one at 55mm ), the square filter holder which locates onto the wide edge of these rings via a slot on the rear of the holder, and then the square filter located in the slot to the front of the holder. This holder will accomodate up to three filters. (That is not an nd grad. filter in the pic., but it illustrates the point.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thanks TD :)
So if I want to take quite a few shots of the sea/water.........Which is best Polariser or ND...Neutral Density
Is this the ND type you refer to
Cheaper one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Camlink-55mm-Neutral-Density-Filter/dp/B001GCVEWY/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1301989847&sr=1-4
and more expensive one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hoya-55mm-NDX2-Screw-Filter/dp/B0000AI1GT/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1301990413&sr=1-6
I see they are X2,up to X8......is this to do with how dark they are.
Is the graduated one different to the above....it can be rotated to alter the brightness,where as the above ones are a fixed and you change each lens to suit the scene?
Am I getting the two mixed up.
Looking on Picstop,they have 2 different ND filters to fit my camera X4 and X8.Would I have to buy more than one to get results?Seems expensive going down that route
http://www.picstop.co.uk/accessories/lens-filters?filters_type=291&filters_sizemm=283
Again looking on the Picstop site.......what about getting a polariser + Skylight +UV filters to start with as I am quite new to all this.
http://www.picstop.co.uk/accessories/lens-filters/hama-polarising-filter-circular-55mm-1
http://www.picstop.co.uk/accessories/lens-filters/hama-skylight-filter-1a-55mm-1
http://www.picstop.co.uk/accessories/lens-filters/hama-uv-0-haze-filter-55mm-1
Is the skylight and the UV one virtually the same......?
I could get all 3 Hama ones for under £35.......or is this going about things the wrong way?
Edit..
Getting back to my first post,that ND variable does seem to be a good buy as it has all the adjustable variations(X2 to X8)in one lens,obviously this is new and very little is known of how it performs.
I must have scared him off with all my questions :scare: :D
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Phil, I got a book on filters with a magazine subscription, so I can answer some of your questions (but don't confuse me with an expert).
I see they are X2,up to X8......is this to do with how dark they are.
Yes, X2 means that the amount of light is halved, so you have to increase the exposure by one stop; X8 means that the amount of light is reduced to one eighth, so you have to increase the exposure by three stops. The main purpose of these plain ND filters is to enable you to use a slower shutter speed at the same aperture, to show up movement in the scene (e.g. a waterfall). Serious photographers buy sets of these with different strengths.
Is the graduated one different to the above....it can be rotated to alter the brightness,where as the above ones are a fixed and you change each lens to suit the scene?
Not quite. A graduated filter is darker at the top than the bottom. The normal purpose is reduce the amount of exposure given to the sky while leaving the land unaltered. This avoids burning out the sky on bright days when there's a lot of contrast between the sky and the land. This sort of filter is used a great deal by landscape photographers, and is probably the best one for you and me to start with.
The filter which you mentioned at the start of the thread isn't a graduated filter, it's a plain filter whose strength can be varied by rotating the front part. It's a cheap way of getting in effect a set of plain ND filters, but it won't help you with haze or burnt-out sky.
Polarising filters have a lot of uses in deepening the blue of the sky and in reducing sparkly reflections. As they are rotated, the effect varies, so you can 'tune' them for the effect you want.
UV and skylight filters may reduce haze a little, but the camera sensor already has UV filtration built in, so they don't really do a lot. Their main purpose for most photographers is (I think) just to protect the front element of the lens from accidental damage.
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Thanks Eric :)
Polarising filters have a lot of uses in deepening the blue of the sky and in reducing sparkly reflections. As they are rotated, the effect varies, so you can 'tune' them for the effect you want.
I think that might be the first one I get.I can get get a Hama one for around £14 or the better Hoya for around £20.I like the idea of rotating the lens to get different effects.
Edit.....When you have a filter screwed on is the lens hood still able to be screwed on?
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I apologise for not responding to your post yesterday, unkyUb.......the old brain shut down when my BP went awry.
Glad to see that roseway has posted a comprehensive reply to your points.......and I would agree with all he has said. :)
As to the polariser.........first of all, yes you can still attach the hood but there may be problems depending on which thread the hood screws onto.
If the hood normally screws into the filter thread on the front of the lens, no problem as there is a same sized thread on the front of the filter. That all assumes that your hood is round, if it is square or petal shaped at it's front end, you couls possiblt get the cornes of that front end intruding into the scene.
If, however, the hood screws onto it's own thread elsewhere on the lens then you have a problem in that the hood will prevent access to the filter and thus prevent you rotating it for effect.
In that case you would have to adjust the pola. then attach the hood.
I realise that budget constraints are influencing you decision....but in all honesty I would place a ND Grad before a polariser on the priority list.
Lets go back to your earlier question about which filter to use for a seascape.
OK, you see your scene and think "great, on with the polariser and saturate the colours...also it will knock out the reflections from the water. No reflections so I can see the seabed, and capture that lovely white sand under the water...or use the same pola. technique at rock pools...eliminate the surface and snap the crabs and thinks creeping around on the bottom. And to boot get a lovely blue sky"
But........there is a snag. The sky, as discussed earlier in the thread, is very much brighter than the foreground and when the foreground exposure is right you may well get a washed out sky. The polariser will not correct that imbalance.....it will attempt to saturate that sky but if the sky is burned out to such an extent that there is no detail there, then there is nothing to be polarised.
The polariser will not balance foreground and sky........for that you want the ND Grad.
Conversely, the ND Grad will balance but not saturate the image.........so what to do to achieve both effects ? You use both filters together ! !! and that is why the square filter system in a holder is the better option...much easier to use.
However that costs money, so let us try to economise........by not getting the polariser. For those on a budget, let us not forget that we are talking digital photography here...and the effect of the polariser can be achieved in any good, free image editor simply by pushing up the saturation and contrast levels.
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I apologise for not responding to your post yesterday, unkyUb.......the old brain shut down when my BP went awry.
Never an apology needed TD.............Hope you are feeling better :)
Thank you for all your comments.I do understand where you are coming from re altering the sky etc via a photo editor.
The one thing that I found and was not happy about was taking landscape shots on a hazy day.The haze seemed to wash over the photo.
Example(Symonds Yat Sept 2009)
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi246.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg87%2FUncleUB%2FThe%2520Millpond%2520Sept%25202009%2FDSC00253.jpg&hash=a602104fdecfcef72f3936d797fc7526274c3864)
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi246.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg87%2FUncleUB%2FThe%2520Millpond%2520Sept%25202009%2FDSC00254.jpg&hash=ee153c2ddcf1c7da8fc87d6a07ba1aabc2ebeec1)
Square ND Filters>is this set here what you mean,plus I would need a lens (in my case 55mm)adapter as well.
http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-cokin-h250a-nd-gradual-filter-kit/p1000795
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I have replicated (in part ) the effect of an ND grad filter on one of your images, unkyUb.
Now, I cannot get the sky back as it was lost from the original image....burned out by virtue of the oft mentioned difference in brightness between land and sky. Suffice to say, had such a filter been used at the time, there would be a full sky showing in the image.
However, the first image shows what it would look like when you look through the camera when and ND grad is attached....very dark at the top and very clear at the bottom
The second image shows the result achieved when the photo is taken......as above, we have lost the sky but the background distant hills are back in play....and bye-bye to the washed out, misty middle area. :)............just think what that would have looked like had the filter been used and you had a lovely sky in there..
edit to add.........yes, that is what I mean by the square filter..you would need the filter, the holder and the adaptor ring.
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Thanks TD :)
Re the various filters x2,x4 etc........what scenarios do you define which to use.....is it the brighter the condition the higher number of filter is used.?
Getting back to my posted photo's.....would a UV filter not help reduce that hazy cast?
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These ND graduated filters come in "stops" ....1 stop, 2 stop, 3 stop......1 will reduce the light level by half, 2 by a factor of 6 and 3 by a factor of 9.
A 3 stop is, generally, too strong... a 1 stop is mostly not strong enough.......a 2 stop is the one to use for most conditions.
In the pics. we are looking at today, a haze would have some effect on the misty bits in the middle but would do nothing to balance the light and bring the sky back in.
Try a compromise. You will want a haze filter, if for no other reason than as a lens protector. Buy that and see if it improve your pics. whilst at the same time mulling over the other filters and their cost etc.......then decide one way or 'tother.
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Try a compromise. You will want a haze filter, if for no other reason than as a lens protector. Buy that and see if it improve your pics. whilst at the same time mulling over the other filters and their cost etc.......then decide one way or 'tother
Spoken like a true Yorkshirman TD ;D
All your advice has been taken on board and logged in the old memory banks. :)
I think I will get a haze filter for starters(which will also help to protect my lens(would it be worth getting 2,one for each lens?),leave the polariser alone and then get at some point a set of ND graduated filters.
Am I right in thinking that Kood are a good brand?
http://www.premier-ink.co.uk/photographic/threaded-filters/uv-/-haze/kood-55mm-uv-haze-filter-p-1422.html
Or spend a bit more and get a Hoya one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hoya-55mm-Haze-Screw-Filter/dp/B00009R98X/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1302089921&sr=1-6
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Kood are very good.............my haze and warm-up filters are Kood, my ND grads. and my polariser are Lee ( now, they are expensive.. :( )
One for each lens is a good idea...just then leave them on and no fiddling about changing lens to lens.
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Kood are very good.............my haze and warm-up filters are Kood, my ND grads. and my polariser are Lee ( now, they are expensive.. :( )
One for each lens is a good idea...just then leave them on and no fiddling about changing lens to lens.
I have just seen this Hoya one on Amazon........£8.75 inc del(which seems like a good price to me)?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00006HOAP/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=A3GI79VBNSVFZI
Price of Lee filters....... :swoon:
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Please see PM.
Kood better than Hoya, Hoya better than Hama........but in reality all much of a muchness. Any will do the job just fine.
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I would go for Kood filters and the Kood P-Type ND Filter Kit - £49.99 (http://www.premier-ink.co.uk/photographic/square-filters/p-type/-c-60_361_363.html) is a good starter kit.