Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: S.Stephenson on July 26, 2015, 01:17:16 AM
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I keep having connection issues that I blame squarely on wind and the tree that my line is caught on, notice the massive drift to the right the line is also taut.
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Basically powerful wind = line drop usually.
My two neighbors on the left are connected via a different pole like this, with both lines being hooked onto #1 with #2's line passing through #1 at the front.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.org%2Fgyvxqm6vl%2F2015_07_17_18_10_31.jpg&hash=2928766f9eb2a27d3035c04e970881a73e3f88f5)
If I get it moved it would stop all future tree related problems and have the added benefit of decreasing my line length from the cabinet by ~80m.
So the main questions are, how much would this cost and how difficult is it to get them to do this for me, especially due to potential wayleave for #1 and #2.
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Firstly, I'm not doubting your statement that the wire is rubbing on the tree branches, especially when windy. But from an engineering perspective, it would have to be proven so before renewal of the wire is undertaken. The actual fault could be in an underground joint 2 miles down the road, for example.
From what you say though our test equipment should easily identify the issue, and usually giving the wire a good whacking with our 'height measuring rods' can generally simulate the windy conditions, thus enhancing the fault condition for detection purposes.
If it is proven to be the wire, there are various options open to us ............ including feeding from a different DP as a last resort. The usual course of action would be to prune the tree, if it's light foliage we are obliged to attempt it ourselves, but looking at your picture I would probably have it farmed out to a local contractor.
We also have a specific wire designed for this situation, that has thicker insulation.
If 're-feeding' from the other DP (Pole) is to be utilised, then it's simply a case of asking the neighbours permission to 'bounce' the wire onto and across their properties. If permission was given, a far neater job would be for the engineer to use CAD55 wire from the pole to the gable-end premises. This is a multi-core cable that would carry all 3 circuits in the one wire, rather than have three separate wires 'flying' from the pole to the premises. A BT66 connector block would then be fixed and all three circuits run separately from here, to each individual premises.
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Im thinking of not going through my ISP and directly requesting a movement of external openreach equipment, mainly because I'd rather pay money now rather than have to have to deal with ringing up to get a tree trimmed every few years., and the frustration I've had in my few attempts with BT retail support so far.
That and if they trimmed the tree to also help my neighbours line at #4 the tree would probably die.
So would the best thing in this case be to get in contact with openreach ask for some forms for neighbours to sign and hope it doesn't cost like £400
My estimate was like the typical £130 for a socket movement.
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. . . directly requesting a movement of external openreach equipment, . . .
What Openreach external plant (equipment) are you considering to have moved? :-\
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Normally the owner who's trees are effecting your drop wire is responsible as it's over there land.
We have a cordyline palm tree and my neighbours line is now going though it, if that tree falls and damages the drop wire I will be held responsible for any costs from BT Openreach to fix my neighbours line.
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. . . directly requesting a movement of external openreach equipment, . . .
What Openreach external plant (equipment) are you considering to have moved? :-\
The external drop wire, nothing crazy like the pole.
Tree belongs to the incompetent parish council unfortunately Newtron.
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Tree belongs to the incompetent parish council unfortunately Newtron.
That's who you need to contact the council, it's going to be a pain in the arse but no way should you have to foot the bill for those trees to be cut well back to stop it interfering with your drop wire !
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. . . directly requesting a movement of external openreach equipment, . . .
What Openreach external plant (equipment) are you considering to have moved? :-\
The external drop wire, nothing crazy like the pole.
Tree belongs to the incompetent parish council unfortunately Newtron.
In the true sense of the meaning, 'line plant rearrangement' only covers from Exchange to DP (Telegraph pole). You can imagine the sheer madness of it all, should we have to re-feed all drop-wires that find themselves enshrouded by foliage ??.
As NS states, the pruning should be carried out by the Council, but we all know how that will probably go. ;)
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Tree belongs to the incompetent parish council unfortunately Newtron.
That's who you need to contact the council, it's going to be a pain in the arse but no way should you have to foot the bill for those trees to be cut well back to stop it interfering with your drop wire !
I have enough spare cash laying around to just bite the bullet and stop any future issues by getting it moved.
Black Sheep helped by saying it can be done as a last resort, can I pay to make it the only one.
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I don't see that side of the fence, so to speak. But, as cash is king ..... I couldn't for-see any issues. I think you would probably need to start with the 'LPR' team as they would despatch a Survey Officer to see if it's possible to do (Height above carriageways, spare capacity to new pole, etc).
Before the next question is asked ..... no, I wouldn't know how to contact the LPR team, but I bet someone on here will ?? ;) ;D
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I have enough spare cash laying around to just bite the bullet and stop any future issues by getting it moved.
Black Sheep helped by saying it can be done as a last resort, can I pay to make it the only one.
Good for you and if we have helped please donate a wee bit of that cash laying around to the KITZ site :)
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I don't see that side of the fence, so to speak. But, as cash is king ..... I couldn't for-see any issues. I think you would probably need to start with the 'LPR' team as they would despatch a Survey Officer to see if it's possible to do (Height above carriageways, spare capacity to new pole, etc).
Before the next question is asked ..... no, I wouldn't know how to contact the LPR team, but I bet someone on here will ?? ;) ;D
Can't see any issues on that front as the pole I want to be moved to is the feeder pole with a Black DP box and rather thick cables running up it, so hopefully when I figure out who to ring it will be a matter of paying a few bob getting a few signatures and then hopefully a stable and slightly faster line.
I have enough spare cash laying around to just bite the bullet and stop any future issues by getting it moved.
Black Sheep helped by saying it can be done as a last resort, can I pay to make it the only one.
Good for you and if we have helped please donate a wee bit of that cash laying around to the KITZ site :)
It's all allocated to my very hopeful FTTPod budget i'm afraid, I was many of those devastated by the price rises and the very few exchanges that were actually supported :( , in a commercial roll out area phase 8c if I remember correctly though so fingers crossed for G.Fast.
But a cheeky £10 is always available for noble causes.
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A good starting point would be the appropriate page (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/contactus/alteringournetwork/peopleathomeoratwork/homeandwork.do) on the Openreach web-site for making contact with regards to external plant rearrangement. :)
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A good starting point would be the appropriate page (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/contactus/alteringournetwork/peopleathomeoratwork/homeandwork.do) on the Openreach web-site for making contact with regards to external plant rearrangement. :)
Looking around on the pricing for services it's looking like
Standard Chargeable Visit (Visit plus up to 1 hours work) 95.92
+
Internal and External Shifts 105.40
Doesn't seem too unreasonable I'll give them a ring when i'm not in work or e-mail the full details to them.
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Please keep us up-to-date with any progress. As a techno-kitteh, I would be appreciative of before and after pictures. :)
My current understanding is that you are fed directly from a pole mounted DP (somewhere behind that tree) and you are proposing to have the drop cable relocated to a carrier pole? How would that result in an overall ~80m reduction in your circuit's length? :-\
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Please keep us up-to-date with any progress. As a techno-kitteh, I would be appreciative of before and after pictures. :)
My current understanding is that you are fed directly from a pole mounted DP (somewhere behind that tree) and you are proposing to have the drop cable relocated to a carrier pole? How would that result in an overall ~80m reduction in your circuit's length? :-\
The pole I am currently on is a carrier pole as it has no cables running up it, the pole I want to be moved to is the pole with the DP and the thick cables running up it.
All I know in terms of my line length is using map tools following the most likely route I come up with ~430m and if line was moved I came up with ~350m.
It will definitely be a reduction in line length my actual line being ~430m seems unlikely however as my line attenuation is 16.3
Overall i'm looking for the elimination of my line problems and a slight speed increase, can see this taking a while for me to arrange the movement of line but will post results wherever with before and after line status from my crappy HH5A due to having BT TV :( .
Also something I have noticed is that between the poles there is only 3 lines followed by a thicker cable is this normal/sufficient if everyone had FTTC, I can take pictures if anyone is interested.
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The pole I am currently on is a carrier pole as it has no cables running up it, the pole I want to be moved to is the pole with the DP and the thick cables running up it.
<Nods.> Thank you. Now I understand.
. . . crappy HH5A due to having BT TV :( .
One of the booby-prizes. :-X
Also something I have noticed is that between the poles there is only 3 lines followed by a thicker cable is this normal/sufficient if everyone had FTTC, I can take pictures if anyone is interested.
I am uncertain of what you have tried to describe. A picture (or three), when convenient, would certainly help to clarify things. ;)
As for your question with regards to VDSL2 services -- if the overall distance between the PCP, its fibre twin and the EU do not preclude provision of such a service, then yes that cabling would be sufficient.
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Feeder pole I want to be moved to
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Three lines from Feeder pole to carrier pole i'm connected to.
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The carrier pole i'm connected to
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What i'm thinking is could these three lines support 20ish houses all on VDSL that is the poles backhaul?
May be a stupid question but I am curious on how three lines plus the thicker one can support potentially 1.6Gbit/s, or is it a particularity high contention situation?
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Curiouser and curiouser. I do not doubt your analysis and ability to recognise a pole with DP and a carrier pole. There are certainly more drop cables radiating from the carrier pole than I was expecting to see. However as no DACS units are visible then that is a good sign.
As for the cabling between the DP pole and carrier pole, three thinner cables and one thicker cable, the total number of pairs must either be equal to or greater than the number of circuits radiating from the carrier pole.
Each pair has the potential to carry a VDSL2 circuit (currently with a ~17MHz bandwidth). The only limitation would be the number of physical line-card ports available within the fibre cabinet.
One factor that will have to be taken into account is whether the DP pole would be able to take the extra loading (under adverse weather conditions) if yet another drop cable was run from it. :-\
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That carrier pole also feeds another one which has around 10 houses connected to it via another 3 cables.
Must be a hell of a lot of wires in the thicker one, I always assumed it was power or something.
This will all be rendered moot when i pay them to move the thing, never noticed any speed issues just seems like a low provision.
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You'll be surprised at the number of pairs that can exist in a typical aerial distribution cable! :)
Attached, below, is the specification for one type of aerial cable.
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Also something I have noticed is that between the poles there is only 3 lines followed by a thicker cable is this normal/sufficient if everyone had FTTC.
What i'm thinking is could these three lines support 20ish houses all on VDSL that is the poles backhaul?
May be a stupid question but I am curious on how three lines plus the thicker one can support potentially 1.6Gbit/s, or is it a particularity high contention situation?
Its normal. VDSL2 is capable of carrying 80Mbps over a single copper pair.
As far as contention goes, it doesn't happen at all on the copper side of things, which in effect is a dedicated end to end point between your property and the cab.
Contention and congestion occurs on the fibre backhaul where numerous (many 100's) of users are sharing the same bandwidth on the fibre optic cable. The usual points of congestion are between the exchange and the RAS - commonly known in old money as the VP. With FTTC the backhaul would be the point between the Head End Exchange and the point you enter the main core is known as a SVLAN. There is also another place where its possible that local contention could occur and thats the CVLAN - ie the fibre from the cab to the head end exchange. Its supposedly not meant to occur here, but thats not to say it couldnt at some point.
Here's an old diagram that I did many years ago which clearly shows where contention can occur and the VPs (Virtual Paths). It was done in the early days of adsl so bandwidth was far less, but the theory is the same.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2Fcontention.gif&hash=a88ba6ea32bc9fa2cda7c26cf7487894938d6343)
A more updated version for 21CN is here (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/21cn_network.htm#21CN_network_diagram) - where you see the clouds thats part of the SVLAN and where congestion can occur. Just now we are talking of 100's of users with much higher speeds and multiple Gb's on the backhauls.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2F21CN_network.png&hash=4c6315937638a8aba4bbe57d6cbea14d8a18760e)
Whilst there's no contention on the copper pair - unlike fibre - copper suffers badly with attenuation (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm#attenuation). The longer the length of copper then the more the signal fades. xDSL is a digital signal carried over copper wire - the shorter the length of copper the clearer the signal which means it can carry more frequencies.. and higher frequencies mean more bandwidth. (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_technology.htm#dmt_modulation) Its also susceptible noise. Noise from various sources such as EMI or crosstalk (or even a worn cable/oxydised joint) can introduce noise which will further drown out the signal. Signal strength to Noise (SNR (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm#SNR)) is an important indicator of what speed can be carried over copper.
The HH isn't very good at linestats, although depending on which model you may be able to log your SNR Margin using routerstats. TBH if the line is problematic then a decent modem/router with proper linestats may tell you far more about the physical condition of your line. Whilst perhaps not the most elegant of solutions and because you wish to retain the HH5 because of BT TV, have you thought about putting a HG612 in front of the HH5?
But a cheeky £10 is always available for noble causes.
Thank you very much.