Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: konrado5 on May 24, 2014, 11:43:25 PM
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If small abnormalities are caused by my home installation, it would be fine to improve it. Moreover, even if it is not possible to fix, I want to know the cause. I want to know something more about my circuit. I want to convert my Hlog to TDR for example. I believe it is possible to get significantly more information.
and I cannot believe you have brought up the bell again.
You ignore our advice to get it moved, because it will make pock marks, yet you expect a telco to go digging up and replacing gauge cable.
I've tried to explain why I have not moved doorbell cable. If I would have moved it, there is still doorbell cable further in the wall.
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If you do this again you will be banned and it will be a permanent ban. We have been more than fair to you because of your condition. But there comes a point when enough is enough.
Konrado5...You really need to start listening to what the site admin has said to you as the above quote.
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I don't ask repeating questions.
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Stop it now Konrado, before it's too late.
We have been far more patient here, than most of the other forums you've joined, but our patience has come to an end.
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I don't ask repeating questions.
Whilst your questions are thought provoking, it could be said there is a clear repetitive and somewhat demanding undertone running through all your threads. Perhaps this is not your intention but this is how it comes across, unfortunately.
Something I've found helpful in the past is to create a 'diary' thread where I spam my findings and general thoughts. There is no obligation on anyone else to comment on my diary thread but any info I manage to glean, I try to explain in these threads.
I typically start the thread with a self reminder like, 'I need to find the answers to the following'
1. Very
2. Important
3. Reminders
4. Go
5. Here
As I trawl ze internetz, I update the thread accordingly. There is only ever one thread. I do this purely on a selfish basis because my memory is so bad, if I don't write it down somewhere I will be lucky to remember fragments of the stuff I've found out but really, it's a win/win because others can potentially learn from it too. Also, they can challenge my assumptions if they want so in some ways, it INVITES a response instead of me asking questions all the time.
Group 'affinity mapping' = win. Getting frustrated at lack of response = lose.
If no one posts in my thread, I take it to mean all my assumptions are correct. More win/win!
Something like this *might* help you?
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I ask the same question again if I have additional information which can be helpful to ask. Moreover, it is often someone overlook my question. It is often I get answer when I repeat question.Moreover, sometimes it is happen that someone understand wrongly my question, why I repeat with better explanation what is matter. If it seems unpolite I sincerely apologize.
Best regards
konrado5
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Something I've found helpful in the past is to create a 'diary' thread where I spam my findings and general thoughts. There is no obligation on anyone else to comment on my diary thread but any info I manage to glean, I try to explain in these threads.
What a fantastic idea. Im quite happy for Konrado to have his own thread where he can summarise all his findings on the understanding that he doesnt pressurise other members to answer questions that we dont know, or may not have time to directly answer. A blog (http://wordpress.com/) is another facility which may be helpful for konrado to put all his musings. I bet theres a few of us who would find that an interesting read from time to time.
I think if he started again at the beginning and showed all his symptoms in a clear and constructive manner of the time frame it would also be helpful to others reading. In the past theres been so many threads and graphs that any normal reader can get confused. I often lose track of what konrado has posted and where. Konrado has an ability and time to be able to source and read and investigate things that perhaps some of us dont and he has often found some interesting white papers. Wouldnt it be good if he documented everything in one place?
Its not that we are against you trying to improve your line konrado - far from it! What I think the problem is that with adsl nothing is ever black or white. Its a miracle sometimes that the technology works how it does over a platform it was never designed for.. therefore there will always be some grey areas because out in the field adsl never works like it does under strict laboratory conditions. adsl has a 'grey area' for which allowances have to be made because no line outside of the laboratory is ever going to be 100% perfect. ADSL will always have acceptable realms outside of the norm... and its a difficult art in trying to understand what is considered acceptable and what is actually a fault that should be corrected.
What I cant have though is konrado putting pressure on other members to answer a constant barrage of questions. Members here are free to answer as they choose because we are all 'volunteers' who like to share what we can when we can. Im sure most of us here know that konrado has some problems both with language and a special talent to focus in depth on one topic, this is the reason why we have been far more accommodating than most other forums, but there comes a point as to when it frustrates the many of other forum readers than its time to call it it to a halt.
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I ask the same question again if I have additional information which can be helpful to ask. Moreover, it is often someone overlook my question. It is often I get answer when I repeat question.Moreover, sometimes it is happen that someone understand wrongly my question, why I repeat with better explanation what is matter. If it seems unpolite I sincerely apologize.
Best regards
konrado5
Your questions are boring. Repeating boring questions does not inspire anyone to help you. There is so little information in your posts, you may as well be posting in another language.
Seriously, this is fundamental stuff.
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I've found something new about HAM band mask.
Hamband Mask is for masking out frequencies
that are used by hamband (ham radios) so
that those frequencies and their respective
tones do not interrupt the training process.
This is on page 24 (section Advanced)
https://supportforums.adtran.com/servlet/JiveServlet/previewBody/5553-102-1-6073/ADSL2__with_Carriage_for_Central_Office_Installation_and_Maintenance_Practice.pdf
It seems it is the card setting, therefore my ISP theorethically could change this setting only for me.
Best regards
konrado5
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I have taken a quick look at that document. It is a nine years old, initial release, manual for a specific item of hardware.
You now need to establish if your ISP/CP uses that hardware. If they do not use that hardware, it is something of interest to note but will not be relevant to the broadband service that you receive.
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Is it card setting or rather whole DSLAM? Is it possible my ISP hardware is this accounting my "adsl info --vendor"?
ChipSet Vendor Id: BDCM:0xa32f
ChipSet VersionNumber: 0xa32f
ChipSet SerialNumber:
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I'm sorry but I didn't have time to study that document closely. You really should ask your ISP/CP if they are using that equipment.
All I can say, having seen the output produced by you running an "adsl info --vendor" command line, is that the DSLAM/MSAN has a Broadcom chip set.
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You really should ask your ISP/CP if they are using that equipment.
They doesn't want to inform me about their equipment.
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They doesn't want to inform me about their equipment.
That is unfortunate. :(
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Is Adtran related to Broadcom?
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Ive also not inspected that document in minute detail, but one of the things that immediately jumped out to me were that an awful lot seemed unfamiliar/weird in that document when it comes in comparison to any UK dslams/msans.
One of the things that I immediately noticed as a bit odd (aside from the sync rates), was the fact that the card only catered for 8 subscribers. Todays MSANs for adsl2+ will have hundreds/thousands of subscribers. A typical adsl2+ line card will hold up to 64 subscribers with a hub binding all the line cards together, meaning that even going back as far as 7/8 years each MSAN/DSLAM can support up to 10,000 lines. The last line cards that only had 8 subscribers in the UK that Im aware of would have been prior to 2003 such as the really old Westel MUX's.
Ive had a google and it seems that there are indeed some adsl line cards may be configured at line card level for HAM bands. HOWEVER.. when it comes to to configuration of DSLAMS and MSANs you will usually find (or at least in the UK) that configuration is not done at line card, but the MSAN/DSLAM.. and the configuration will be ISP specific.
ie. the ISP tells the MSAN manufacturer what type of profiles they want made available at time of installation.. and whether there is any customisation such as the DLM and every single MSAN/DSLAM for that ISP uses the same template.
Now the only UK ISP that Im aware of that doesnt/didnt use some sort of DLM was BE/o2. Yes they had profiles such as interleaving.. but BE/o2 also had HAM filtering on every single one of their MSANs.
I dont know if this is true or not.. (BE users are generally techie type users, who wont be fobbed off easily), but the answer that always came back was that it was a nationwide configuration on every single MSAN, that couldnt be changed by them and all their MSANs had to be configured the same.
Although BE configured their MSANs nationwide, there is also a possibility that an ISP could configure regionally.
If your ISP does configure regionally, then the decission could have been made that all MSANs in locations XYZ will be configured with template A, and all MSANs in locations ABC will be configured with template B, during installation.
ADSL2+ MSANs/DLAMs are large units and Im afraid the bad news is that I seriously could not see them configuring them without a template that will affect all units in a similar way. I do not see them having different configurations at a line or line card basis. If they wanted to do that sort of thing, then they'd implement a DLM.
You could try, but I think you may be on a hiding to nothing, because I really dont imagine they would send out a software engineer from the manufacturer to change the config of just one line card. This type of configuration isnt something that would be done by a teleco (BT) engineer.. it will be done by who ever installed the DSLAM/MSAN. By all means try it.. good luck... I think you will need it. Plus it could be different outside the UK.
Is Adtran related to Broadcom?
No. Adtran is a US manufacturer of broadband access products. According to this (http://www.lantiq.com/media-center/news/press/47-adtran-selects-infineons-adsl-2-geminax-max-chipset-to-address-growing-demand-for-xdsl-broadba/) they use Infineon (lantiq) chipsets. Thats not to say that they wont ever use BCM, or havent in the past, but at least for adsl2+ it looks like they use IFTN.
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I think it is not fair if my ISP enable HAM masks, if in my town nobody broadcast 160m radio, there are not any interferences. They explain: "it is vendor recommendation. We filter out frequiences which are the most interferences capable. This setting can cause little synchronization rate loss but it is stable service warrant. We set it without exceptions". They has wanted to denounce an agreement because they said: we can't change this setting.
Best regards
konrado5
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I've only seen one Adtran MSANs and it's vendor string was IFTN; luckily, not with a chipset code I've seen anywhere else (ala the dreaded 71C8). This was a lower end carrier unit so a full blown chassis from Adtran might well be sporting BDCMs or something else.
Your tie pair is more than likely to be part of a bundle of other pairs, probably 30 odd, further wedged into the line card.
I used to believe the 'line card' was a neat little slot in the exchange just for my modem too :D
Who is your ISP? Check their website for hints of which 'partners' they are using. Google past press releases for new contracts with people. Ring their helpdesk and throw some vague questions around? :)
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I have polish ISP service: Netia.
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I think it is not fair if my ISP enable HAM masks, if in my town nobody broadcast 160m radio, there are not any interferences.
I fully sympathise, been there done it got the t-shirt...
Heres one of my old bitloading graphs showing the effects of a HAM filter.
Over about 8 years there must have been hundreds of users that tried to get the filter removed, but the ISP said they couldnt do it. :(
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Is this HAM filter just a software setting or a physical thing? Power cutback to 0 across those tones?
Konrad:
What's the polish equivalent of ANFP?
What is the absolute worst case for what they are saying in terms of synch or synch speed?
What is the likelihood that disabling that thing will increase calls to their support desk?
Are there *any* ISPs in your area that currently do not utilise this setting? If yes, this could help you possibly.
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Alcatel?
http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/press/2010/002100
also here (http://www.netia.pl/files/inwestorzy/prezentacje/generic/generic_june_2013.pdf)
SDH network based mainly on Alcatel (Huawei and Lucent also used)
Alcatel-Lucent are documented to use Broadcom chips as well as their own ALCB.
Mind you Huawei also use BCM, but their adsl2+ MSANs used to be IFTN
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Is this HAM filter just a software setting or a physical thing? Power cutback to 0 across those tones?
Its not like in the UK how BE/O2 totally disabled, it looks like its done via a PSD mask. There are tones in the middle which are totally disabled, but it also has the inverted 'U' shaped where its also cut-back on both sides of the disabled tones. Konrado found a document showing that in Poland his tones were filtered due to it being a known HAM range. I cant recall the link now, konrado will know it though.
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Is this HAM filter just a software setting or a physical thing? Power cutback to 0 across those tones?
This is software filter described here:
http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-G.992.5-200305-S/en
Page 18 (page 26 of PDF file). DSLAM doesn't block tones but it significantly lower power ouput. For example, if I lower SNR margin I have 415-473 gap, at 6 dB I have 410-477 gap.
What's the polish equivalent of ANFP?
UKE perhaps.
http://www.uke.gov.pl
What is the absolute worst case for what they are saying in terms of synch or synch speed?
They say nothing. I have service: maximal possible stable speed at the my location.
What is the likelihood that disabling that thing will increase calls to their support desk?
Very little. Up to september 2013 I have all tones enabled and I had stable service and 17800 kbps at 6.1 dB SNR margin. Today, I have only 14500 kbps at SNR margin 6.1 dB.
Are there *any* ISPs in your area that currently do not utilise this setting? If yes, this could help you possibly.
My ISP doesn't utilise this setting at every place. They utilise it on new DSLAMs. They changed DSLAM and introduced this setting. Here there is their stand at polish:
http://blog.netia.pl/netia/entry/ewolucja-dla-rewolucji#bco38060 (comment nr 183).
Best regards
konrado5
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My ISP old DSLAM was: Ericcson EDN312xp.
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@ Sketel It is true, as recommended by the manufacturer of the equipment we used a mask for sub-band and cut out the part that is exposed to external noise and interference. This configuration can cause slight speed limit but ensures stable operation internet. We do not make exceptions to this configuration.
Having read what I can understand, Netia recently updated their whole network for Triple Play. Theyve undertook a massive haul of their complete network, similar to what BT did for 21CN. They will therefore be using MSANs... or ISAMs as Alcatel call them.
I just thought.. and a lightbulb moment... didnt BE/O2 use Alcatel MSANs?
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One Netia helpdesk assistant said me DSLAM is probably Ericcson.
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One Netia helpdesk assistant said me DSLAM is probably Ericcson.
How sure are you of that? All the documentation Ive found about Netia's new network implies they are now using Alcatel Lucent. (plus a few Huaweis)
AFAIK BE/O2 were the only UK ISPs to use Alcatel MSANs and they were the only UK ISP that had the HAM filter by the manufacturer.
Co-incidence?
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This documentation says they use Alcatel Lucent on SDH. It say nothing about DSLAMs. Previous DSLAM was Ericcson EDN312xp/ R1A .
AFAIK BE/O2 were the only UK ISPs to use Alcatel MSANs and they were the only UK ISP that had the HAM filter by the manufacturer.
Co-incidence?
"as recommended by the manufacturer of the equipment we used a mask for sub-band and cut out the part that is exposed to external noise and interference."
It implies they setted as recommended by the mancufacturer, not manufacturer himself.
Best regards
konrado5
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Here you go... look..
http://www.lightreading.com/ethernet-ip/uk-isp-uses-alcatels-msan/d/d-id/615649
LONDON -- Alcatel (Paris: CGEP.PA and NYSE: ALA) today announced that it has been awarded a multi-million Euro contract by Be, a new broadband service provider in the UK. Be will launch a full triple play offering that will initially consist of a 24 Mbit/s Internet service
... and there's Netia recently upgrading to a brand new network for triple play... and supposedly using Alcatel.
Alcatel-Lucent today announced that Netia, Poland’s largest alternative telecommunications provider of Internet access and voice services, has selected Alcatel-Lucent’s Intelligent Services Access Manager (ISAM) platform
So you get a brand new DSLAM that suddenly sees HAM masking, just like how BE/O2 had HAM tones disabled.
Ive said right from the very beginning, months and months and months ago when you first mentioned about the missing tones that it could be something like BE/O2 users in the UK saw, but you said it wasnt possible.
To me the co-incidences are now beginning to look like a pretty sure fire bet that your ISP is using Alcatel MSANs... and its Alcatel that are installing the HAM masks.
It say nothing about DSLAMs
It does!!!! Read it again... an ISAM is a triple play DSLAM.
DSLAM/MSAN/ISAM all do a similar thing, just more advanced technology.
DSLAM is only DSL. MSAN & ISAM take voice.
LLU providers use MSANs. Your ISP is LLU. They will be using an MSAN or ISAM.
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LLU providers use MSANs. Your ISP is LLU
My circuit is not LLU. It is CU.
Best regards
konrado5
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Im not sure what CU is.
The documentation I read, said that Netia was LLU. There may be a translation problem.
That doesnt affect the situation that Netia is supposedly installing Alcatel ISAMs. BT isnt LLU but they still use MSANs.
This is going to get repetitive again.
I will state for the record that way back in October last year (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13029.msg246499#msg246499) I said I suspected those missing tones were similar to what BE/O2 display and that I thought it may be radio ham, but you totally dismissed this suggestion for many months.
You are now dismissing what to me looks something far too co-incidental to be anything other than not too far from fact.
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I said I suspected those missing tones were similar to what BE/O2 display and that I thought it may be radio ham, but you totally dismissed this suggestion for many months.
This was problem with translation. I dismissed only suggestion there was total tone disabling, because I've seen sometimes some tones used, sometimes not. Instead, I had been suspecting PSD masks all along. For example in the reply #7 I asked the question:
Is it can be done at the way that ISP considerably limit power output on some tones? It would be good accounting for the fact I have always very low SNR on 410-477 tones and slight differences between different connections for example: sometimes I have 410th tone disabled, other times no.
Your reply was:
Unlikely, tone disabling by the SP is done using the PSD masking. AFAIK Power cut back is more regional based on line length, its aim is to stop the power level getting too high and drowning out neighbouring lines. Saying that PSD masking also uses a form of power cut back to ensure certain tones dont go over 'x'dB
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13446.0
Best regards
konrado5
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What???????????
That was about something else... you were asking about the starting tones... note how there I mentioned about the inverted 'U' that PSD masks often cause. You ask so many questions sometimes it gets confusing.
Here in the UK weve not seen 'U' PSD masking for hams/maritime. Just tone disabling. I give you any answers to the best of my knowledge.
I really do get the impression you are out to argue with anything thats said or suggested.
Im out of here, because Im annoyed that Ive let myself be dragged into something where you arent going to take any notice of any suggestions made.
Im also annoyed that I had yet another god-damn security update to do tonight that didnt get done because I was responding to you.
In future I feel there is no point in attempting to answer any of your questions. I waste far too much time when I should be doing other things... and you wonder why I get cross. I cant win.. if I make suggestions, then its not good enough, if I dont respond, you demand an answer.
You try the patience of a saint.
Im backing out now.. you seem to be wanting to argue with what Ive said. Therefore Ive nothing more to say.
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Sorry, I have problems with translating my questions to english and thereby it can seem that I question about something else than I in fact question. This is one of reasons why I ask repetitive questions. I apologize if it seems I want to argue. I don't want to argue. I want to give you additional information so as to you could give better answer.
That was about something else... you were asking about the starting tones...
Yes, in those thread I questioned about starting tones. But I also questioned one more timeabout 410-477 gap and suggested PSD masks because of the U shape.
Is it can be done at the way that ISP considerably limit power output on some tones? It would be good accounting for the fact I have always very low SNR on 410-477 tones and slight differences between different connections for example: sometimes I have 410th tone disabled, other times no.
I questioned in earlier message in the same thread (reply #4):
To be precise, I don't know whether on old DSLAM I've had also 410-477 tones disabled. I know only on old DSLAM I've had about 3 mbps higher synchronization rate. I think nobody broadcast radio in my town. Is it possible that on my DSLAM are unusual PSD masks that power output on these tones are very low? There are slight differences eg. at one synchronization tone 410 is used, by contrast at other that tone isn't used. What is more, I've reported it to my ISP but they said me my SNR graph for tones is normal on long phone lines
Sorry, I ask different questions in one thread. It can cause misunderstandings.
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Konrado please STOP!! :o :'( :-X
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Konrado please STOP!! :o :'( :-X
There's no point, he won't listen.
My patience has come to an end, hence I shall not be responding to konrado5 any longer.
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1. kitz: have I explained clearly in post #34 what I meant in the past?
2. What can be cause of this short upstream SNR margin raisement about 1 dB
Unfortunately I've sent again too much image.
Best regards
konrado5
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Have you been on holiday? :-\
Missing all of your questions! :'(