Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: Excelsior on April 18, 2012, 10:12:09 PM
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Hello there, my first post and I'm already asking for something! I've been reading around some issues and wondered if anyone could suggest anything. Just this Monday, our broadband fell over (Sky, MYELL exchange). This was early evening; no resolution by the time we went to bed. Tuesday it mysteriously reappeared. Tuesday evening, gone again. After hours on the phone to Sky, they decided to send a new modem out. Throughout this the modem was apparently on the exchange, and we could talk to it locally, but no Internet connectivity.
I understand that it is possible for RF interference to knock out a broadband signal in wires (both wired and wireless wasn't working, so it was a problem at the socket). What I realised last night was that the broadband came back after we'd gone upstairs - and after I'd turned our living room halogen lights off.
Now, those lights have sometimes caused issue for our cordless phones but never, ever had any problems with them and the Internet. That said, tonight there was a glitch without the lights being on. So perhaps our modem is dying after all? It's a Netgear from Sky, which I've always had faith in.
Throw into this mix the fact that we think out exchange is going FTTC imminently. I think we might be on ADSL2, but I'm not sure and I understand that as with FTTC if your exchange is enabled it doesn't mean you are? I also understand that ADSL2 is more sensitive to noise than ADSL1. Am I able to find out what we're on, could it have changed quietly over the weekend so that the lights coming on produces enough interference to clobber the ADSL feed?
It was very pointed last night - any level of lighting, no signal. Lights off, signal was back almost immediately. And yet it's never been like that before. Any suggestions welcomed - might a better shielded RJ11 lead help? Thanks your help.
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Hi there, welcome to KITZ - youve certainly come to the correct broadband forum for help :)
some of the more experienced "experts" will be along soon hopefully, meanwhile I will try to offer up some advice:
firstly if you get us your line stats it will tell us a bit more about your line and we may be able to tell you if your on ADSL1 or ADSL2/2+
to get your stats (assuming its a Netgear DG834GT) click this link (http://192.168.0.1/system.htm) and user the username:admin + password:sky (if that fails try admin / password)
copy & paste your line stats in like so:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 17861 kbps 945 kbps
Line Attenuation 26.5 db 15.0 db
Noise Margin 8.4 db 10.9 db
It sounds like your halogen lamps are at fault, sounds like a faulty Inverter (possibly) which controls the power to the bulb (I think) because it happens all the time when they are on, or bad wiring or something. Your best getting these looked at because as you know it can affect all digital services, wifi, dect phones, broadband, sky tv....etc
Have you read the REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.html) page on this site?
it could be the REIN is going directly into the modem 'through the air' or nearby internal extension wiring as a form of RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) , or if not, through mains as a form of EMI (Electromagnetic Interference)
1. are they near the router?
2. do you use any extension cables from socket/filter to router? (if so does this pass near the router?)
3. do you have other BT sockets around your home?
see here (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm) on how to access the test socket, install the filter and router in there, but first grab your stats before you do that so we can get a before and after picture (stats on current setup then stats whilst plugged into the test socket) - this will help us identify if your internal wiring may be adding to the problem.
4. when you remove the faceplate to access the test socket, are there wires going into the back of the faceplate? (if you have other BT sockets around the home then you will have) if so can you confirm that the wire on terminal 3 is connected? (this is a known culprit to pick up REIN and introduce it into the line, you dont need it, remove it and try your lights and see if you get same result.
please answer questions above and post up before test socket and in test socket stats for comparison, like I say; some of our more distinguished members will be along to help soon :)
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I don't know if I'm distinguished enough for snadge but I'm here, just looking in before I go and reacquaint myself with my bed.
It most definitely reads as if a fault has developed with your halogen lighting system and, as a result, significant RFI is being transmitted -- either in free space or via the mains wiring -- to completely "knock-out" the broadband signal. (I am wondering if your near neighbours -- if they have a broadband service -- are also noticing an effect on their service(s). :-\ )
Once you have gathered all the information that snadge has requested to see, I would ask you to perform just one more experiment, please. With your modem/router connected into the test socket of the NTE/5A, note the modem's statistics. Now turn on the suspect lights and re-determine the statistics. I think it will prove illuminating (pun intended ;) ) to compare the two sets of results.
Please excuse me, as I now have something important that requires my attention . . . :sleep:
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yeah, I agree with B'cat , it sounds like a really strong source of rein doesn't it? if its completely knocking it out until its turned off and your neighbours broadband, wifi, wireless phone or TV may be affected - ive seen a few instances of this sort of thing affecting neighbours (treadmills) and even an entire street once (faulty tumble dryer <- BT had to locate this one) - be interesting to find out...
anyway, we look forward to your results tomorrow. :)
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I had issues with Sky's DNS servers the other day, changed to openDNS and everything worked.
My computer was connected OK but the one set auto failed, so worth a try to test if it is that.
Although I don't think this is your problem as you seem to be using a Sky router the other thing that sprang to mind is if they have turned on MER at your exchange and dissabled the other protocols.
It was very pointed last night - any level of lighting, no signal. Lights off, signal was back almost immediately. And yet it's never been like that before. Any suggestions welcomed - might a better shielded RJ11 lead help? Thanks your help
But like others have said it could be faults in your lighting system.
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Good morning all. Not at home unfortunately so I can't do a lot at the moment, but last night from memory my up speed was just shy of 800, down speed was around 1500. Yes, I know, I know, but we're in the countryside and 4km from the exchange. We have some sort of under-pavement connection to the BT system, recently had the pavement dug up and the wires now start at ground level and go up into the house along our wall - but what was done a while ago.
Now then, line attenuation - fro memory that was around 58 /21 ?
The noise margin was interesting. That I looked at with the lights on and off, complete with wife aggro for being obsessed with it (!) That went from 0 / 11 to something like 13 / 11 with the lights on. Unfortunately I haven't had to delve this deeply into my modem stats for a while so I am uncertain as to what that suggests.
What is also becoming apparent is that our modem is becoming unstable in and of itself - my wife couldn't connect to it earlier this morning at all, had to reset it. So it may well be that it's on its way out and has become susceptible to interference as a result. Could it perhaps be failing to compensate for noise on the line or something? Incidentally, there are no ominous hisses or anything coming from the lights, they look stable, so nothing seems to have changed there. Plus we are decidedly uncertain about there the transformer(s) is/are to be able to look at those. No bulbs have blown or anything.
In terms of testing the master socket - we don't have one. I've looked at the primary box we use previously and there's no test socket. Couple of other extensions but they're not in use. Suffice to say this house has held a few surprises for us, so what's been set up in the past is really anyone's guess. As I say, until recently there hasn't been a problem, we're just waiting with baited breath for FTTC to come along - if they actually turn it on for us. Seem to be a lot of Openreach vans around, but it may just be because I'm looking for them!
A neighbour at the other end of our row did mention when we asked that his BT connection seemed wobbly, but he's a fair way down the road from us and we have old thick walls. Our cordless phones are no worse and the Wifi signal itself is fine, so perhaps it's an EMI issue if it isn't just the modem dying?
I will look up what MER is - it's annoying that you can't contact exchanges direct, but we do know it's not reported any outages, nor is it particularly heavily used.
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Do you have another router?
If so you would need to get user details from the Sky router to use one but it may be worth a try, my bet is if you contact Sky about a fault they may send you a new router.
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no router stats then? would be great if we could see them. :)
does your master socket not have a split front where you can screw the bottom half off? if not then I dunno what the crack is with the ring wire on the older LJU type master sockets (if they have ringwire or not - maybe someone could let us know?), you could remove the front of it and check to see if the ringwire is connected on terminal 3 and report back, the only wires you need are 2&5 - wire 3 is known to pick up the REIN and introduce it into the line.
if your lights are giving off REIN then its something thats become faulty in them, first place to start would be its power source.
if your line attenuation is 58db then you should be achieving in the region of 3000 down, im surprised your getting 800 up on that connection mind? - anyway, its not ADSL1 connection your on.
your router can actually be flashed with either the Netgear official firmware or DGteam firmware and you can manually set your noise margins and ADSL1/2/2+ , aswell as run monitoring tools like Router Stats and DMT tool, as your line is long you dont have much lee-way to be able to raise your noise margin in an attempt to give you more stability, your source of REIN sounds pretty intense and needs addressing, I dont think ADSL1 and a shielded RJ-11 will do much to save you from it, but by all means try it.
when you turn your lights on the noise margin should drop to 0 if its knocking the broadband off, then back up when they are not on. if your noise margin is currently 11db then thats why your only getting 1500 down , DLM has raised your noise margin in attempt to make your line more stable from the dropouts its detecting.
(Noise Margin drops when their is noise on the line because the margin between the signal and the noise becomes less, to counteract you can 'raise' the noise margin higher in attempt to make it more stable, but as you can see that doesnt even work for you)
If it were me I would be turning off the lights completely for a while so I can run monitoring tools on my flashed Netgear so I can see whats going on without them - this will also give me a chance to see if the router is faulty.
if you use wifi then you could have interference or trouble connecting to that and thinking its the modem/router thats at fault.. if you cant connect to it then you should plug in the LAN cable to be sure its not a poor wifi reception.
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Good evening. So, these are my precise figures with the lights off:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1326 kbps 796 kbps
Line Attenuation 50 db 28 db
Noise Margin 15 db 12 db
Lights on:
Connection Speed 1326 kbps 796 kbps
Line Attenuation 50 db 28 db
Noise Margin 5 db 12 db
So the downstream noise has actually dropped a lot. Connection to the exchange seems to hold, but no data throughput. Interesting? What does this mean exactly? Any way I can pin down where the interference might be originating? Thanking you.
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Any way I can pin down where the interference might be originating? Thanking you.
Yes with a radio:
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm
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your 50db line is capable of 5000 (5Mb) sync rate or thereabouts
DLM has set a 15db Noise Margin as its detecting dropouts and thats why you get the slower speed
the connection holds because the noise margin was set high enough to hold it, it went down 10db to 5db...it needs to drop to 0db for it too lose connection, default noise margin on sky is 7db (6db most other ISPs use)
no data throughput AT ALL..? is that whilst connected via LAN cable to the router? when diagnosing you should always use the LAN cable because like I said in previous post if your using wifi it may be getting affected too and that will get in the way of correctly diagnosing whats happening.
if the lights arent kicking it over now then its because DLM has raised the Noise Margin further than previously and its giving you enough "distance" between the noise and the signal OR there are other sources of noise and when these are active (lowering the noise margin) when the lights come on it kicks it over..
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Ah yes I'd read that. Not sure we have a portable one, but I'll have to see what I can do. So odd it's just started out of the blue. That noise behaviour is clearly there from my stats. Spot on.
Snadge, understand what you're saying in terms of testing it cabled - but it impacts on out Sky HD box's Anytime + and that's a wired connection to the modem. So it isn't just the wi-fi that's getting clobbered, it does seem to be on the modem. We get the odd little bit of data through, but web page for example is a no-no.
At what point would you expect it to be unusable, you sound surprised we're not getting something at 5db? The other night the connection did get lost with the lights, I do wonder how stable our modem is. New one is on the way from Sky, so we'll see what happens when that gets here.
I might try a firmware upgrade. Any way to tell when we switched to ADSL2 at all?
Liking this forum software by the way, puts mine to shame!
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just its always best to diagnose via LAN - for e,g, the router could be working perfectly but on wifi you may not be getting anything through or its slow and you could blame the router/modem - when in fact it could just be the wifi signal your having trouble with due to location. I know its obvious your having problems with noise on the modem but like I say it still best to plug it in via LAN when running tests etc... everyone else will tell you the same thing, I know its not always practical as I have that problem myself with a PC on Wifi...lol... :)
as your getting a connection sync you should be getting some throughput, web pages should work somewhat? if your not and your CERTAIN its not your wifi thats struggling with the throughput also , then its errors on your line from the noise, but if it was so bad that it stopped all throughput then its unlikely the router would have been able to make a sync with the exchange (which it has)
- your noise margin dropping to 0db or so is when you lose connection because the noise level and signal meet, some routers can hold a sync just below that but most likely it will drop around the 0db mark
you are currently on ADSL2+ because your upstream speed is 796k - you wouldnt have that on ADSL1 (448k)
you may fair better on ADSL1 as it will not try to use the higher frequencies like ADSL2+ does... but if normally when you turn on lights and broadband will not sync until they are off then i doubt it would make much difference , however here we see you holding a sync with the lights on, so I wonder if your noise margin has been the default of 7db when its been happening (dropping 10db like it does from 7db will kick this over until the lights go off) but now DLM has upped your margin to 15db to make it more stable so a 10db drop takes you to 5db, which it can still hold a sync.
any chance you can plug it in via LAN now and see if your throughput and web pages start to work? :) - if still same then its high error count on the line, be caused from the noise....
on that connection (sub 1Mbps actual throughput) Anytime+ will be hit hard with or without noise I would think as less than 1Mbps is not enough to stream movies i would think, not without some buffering here and there)
hope this helps :)
whats your forum by the way?
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Right I might try it linked up tomorrow night then. The forum is an old Ikonboard one - it's pretty quiet and not exactly state of the art but I keep it for nostalgia to some extent! Have a look at the site - Star Fleet (http://www.sfxb.co.uk)
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hey its good, nice and bright website, forum looks canny too - im sure I saw that Star-Fleet when I was younger, I recognize that robot :)
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Is your other Sky devices connected to phone line?
Try removing the phone connection for a test, also some fit two ADSL filters to Sky boxes.
No, double-filtering is GOOD!
Provided you do it right......
Many devices, typically SKY boxes, cause fewer problems when double-filtered.
The rules are simple:
plug the phone cable (or other suspect device) into a filter
plug that filter into a 2nd filter
plug that filter into the wall socket
The broadband cable MUST be in the filter directly plugged into the wall socket (i.e. not shared with the double-filtered phone)
HPsauce - http://community.plus.net (http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,95863.0.html/)
You do have a filter fitted to the Sky box line? Do you have multi room and are they connected to a phone line.
You may just have a faulty Sky box.
I might try a firmware upgrade. Any way to tell when we switched to ADSL2 at all?
I would hold off introducing another possible fault problem, fix what you have first before doing any other major changes. And anyway if you have a Sky router they update them anyway witout you knowing about it unless you check versions.
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Double filtering may work but i do not believe it to being best practice when troubleshooting. Disconnecting is always better practice. I would advise that you take out EVERYTHING apart from the broadband and connect the router into the BT test socket. Check your errors when lights are on (need to do this for at least an hour) then check your errors with lights off making sure you reboot the router to clear any excisting errors before you turn the lights off. If there is a hugh difference in error build up from the test port then your problem is related to REIN from the lights which the type of lights you are using are very common in causing REIN issues if you could confirm that for me BS please ;D. Another common device for causing REIN would be a sky top box but it won't be that cause your going to have that disconnected and turned off cause it could still transmit REIN when turned on even if it is connected to the line or not. You now have the choice between 2 different scenarios so you can choose whichever one is easier for you 8). I would advise that you do get your lights checked out by a spark but that is really your call to make and i wouldn't really make it until you know for sure it is def the lights and the only way that is going to be done is if you break it all down eliminating each device that is on that line.
Gary
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Well I haven't had chance to do exhaustive tests, but the lower I set the lights, the less noise there is! Seems pretty much cause and effect. Set lights at half power and it's about 7db noise, which is just adequate for normal use. Now, what I have noticed is that one of our dimmers isn't, well, dimming. Although it isn't part of the main lights, it's probably on the same circuit and I'm guessing that more power going to the other lights might be causing an issue even if that dimmed light isn't on. Ho hum. Sparky may well be in order...
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Oh bother! :o
I shall try to break this to you gently but most dimmer switches / controls are pure evil with regards to the generation of RFI. As for a defective one . . . >:(
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I know, I know. We had to change our cordless phones at one point. People still say they're quiet now, and it's almost certainly down to the same issue. Unfortunately our living room is quite dark so the lights tend to be on most of the time. What I suspect has happened is that this fault in the dimmer has developed recently which is why we're suddenly getting this issue. Ironically we hardly ever use that light, but had been doing so to not use the main lights, which is when I realised it wasn't dimming properly. Sigh. We should have a new router today so I'll see if that changes anything, but I'm not hopeful, it has to be said... Takes me right back to the days of configuring a Motorola modem's configuration file by hand, desperately trying to squeeze a few more bps out of it!
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So, an update. New modem duly arrived from Sky, a Saegem this time. Interestingly, it's showing lower speed at the moment but it's allowing us to browse at lower margins without difficulty with the lights on full. Noise margin bounces up massively with lights off and it seems faster generally, so I'll see what it's like when it settles. I guess it's adapating to the noise better than the old Netgear was. Our connection is never going to be massively fast but at least it now looks as if it'll be stable with the lights on. Now we just wait for the lights to go pop!
Lights at half power:
Connection Speed
1091 kbps
796 kbps
Line Attenuation
56.5 dB
29.5 dB
Noise Margin
5.7 dB
9.5 dB
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Excelsior,
Its pretty obvious where the problems are coming from you said that yourself however if you would rather leave your lights faulty and accept the speed your getting that is your choice the only problem is that eventually it won't be just the lights that would go pop your broadband will also go pop not to mention faulty electrics being dangerous and a potential fire hazard. If it was me and again this is just me i would be getting that fixed ASAP. So foget about your broadband speeds and concentrate on making your house a safer place to live ;D
Gary
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Hello Gary,
Well, it is and it isn't. The previous modem was quite old and it may simply have been on the way out, looking at it more over the past few days it did seem to have some odd hiccups. So nothing may actually have changed with the lights, given that the new router is tolerating them even at full power. We know they kick out interference, the transformers they're using are probably exactly the wrong type but even looking at them would be a job in itself. If we had the money and time it might be worth re-doing it all, but that seems unlikely in the short term. We'll keep an eye on it, thanks for your comments one and all.
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Hi
If your router is a netgear then I would suggest running routerstats (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm). This application will plot most of your stats over time and displays the graphs in real time .
Its a good troubleshooting tool ,REIN will be clearly seen on the SNR margin graph .
Regards Jeff
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Hello Jeff. Ironically the new router is not a Netgear so I guess this won't work.
Another question if I may. I have been looking at items such as this: Shielded power cord (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tacima-Conditioner-Frequency-Interference-Filter/dp/B000PS5700/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1335341191&sr=1-1-catcorr)
Now, this reckons it shields against RFI (to some extent anyway). My question is, with the lights issue, is it likely to be RFI they're putting out or EMI? Can EMI be the issue even though, presumably, the lights aren't on the mains circuit that the power sockets are on, and if so, would this type of adaptor help? As is stands the modem's still OK but I think the speed has been lowered to keep the connection up.
Thinking back, once upon a time I think we had an old wireless router upstairs running off an extension. That encountered noise too with the downstairs lights on, so maybe it is RFI? I need to do some more reading. I guess if we were on a better line generally this wouldn't be an issue, we're not exactly going to get brilliant speeds given where we are but I would like to make the connection a little smoother if at all possible.
I also meant to ask; does RFI impact on the phone socket circuit itself? Is it that that would need shielding, rather than the power supply, or both?
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re interference from halogen lights.... would I be correct in assuming these are the low voltage variety? LV halogens are fed by switch-mode power supplies, operating at frequencies well within the 'vulnerable' range for DSL. To see the evidence of this, if you have a medium wave (AM) radio, then tune it up and down as you switch the lights off & on, you will very likely hear very loud buzzing, detectable from quite along way off, at certain frequencies with the lights on. Specifically, in my experience, LV halogen lights DO have a significant detrimental effect on DSL (search the forums, I started a thread a year or two back).
In your case, the question seems to be why the effect is more than just detrimental, it is catastrophic. That makes me think that either the interference is much stronger than normal, or more likely (IMHO) that your DSL wiring is simply more vulnerable than it needs to be.
The most common entry point for interference affecting DSL is the bell wire, as it upsets the mutual rejection characteristics of the twisted pairs. Have you disconnected your bell wire, yet?
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Oh yes, they're low voltage I think. The bulbs look like these (although ours are less W than these) and they fit into small white connectors linked to... somewhere by a couple of wires. It's the "somewhere" that I'm concerned about, because we've had an electrician have a look in the obvious places for the transformer which I believe these need without joy (without ripping up carpets).
Halogen bulbs (http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/lighting/lightbulbs/halogen_bulbs/-specificproducttype-standard_halogen/Osram-Halogen-50W-Pack-of-5-11597746)
Would we be looking for one transformer or lots of transformers? About 12 lights total. If they're on individual transformers, would it be worth taking a couple of the bulbs out to see if that makes any difference?
I've read about the bell wire, I need to have a look at that. From memory I think we have a LJU2 Master but again I need to check - no test socket, we've certainly never had it switched out since we've been in the house. Where would the NTE5 typically live, assuming that there was one? Could we ask BT to fit one, presumably at a price?
In terms of vulnerability to interference, well, the junction point to the house looks about as old as the house which is, well, old. They recently shifted our pole lines underground, so the outside line comes up from the pavement through a small grey box enclosure and then up in parallel to the mains power line (some separation, granted) up to the guttering level, then I think along to a black junction box then back down into the house. Even then I'm not entirely sure what route it follows because there are two extensions upstairs, neither of which we use.
Did I read correctly that if you take out all the wires in the master socket extensions stop working? Wouldn't actually mind in our case but I don't know if our socket is that type. It's just massively frustrating because we didn't wire this stuff up in the first place.
What does seem odd is that this problem just flipped on after a weekend. None of the bulbs have changed, nothing. Maybe the modem was just on the way out. However, my wife did mention to me last night that the lights in the living toom went on / off / on a couple of times the other day then settled. So I do wonder if it's the lights that are on the way out, which will really be fun and games...
If I manage to find any resolution to this I'll let you know. Thanks for taking the time to help, I appreciate it.
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Oh yes, they're low voltage I think. The bulbs look like these (although ours are less W than these) and they fit into small white connectors linked to... somewhere by a couple of wires. It's the "somewhere" that I'm concerned about, because we've had an electrician have a look in the obvious places for the transformer which I believe these need without joy (without ripping up carpets).
Halogen bulbs (http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/lighting/lightbulbs/halogen_bulbs/-specificproducttype-standard_halogen/Osram-Halogen-50W-Pack-of-5-11597746)
Would we be looking for one transformer or lots of transformers? About 12 lights total. If they're on individual transformers, would it be worth taking a couple of the bulbs out to see if that makes any difference?
Many of these transformers need to be matched to the bulbs, and only work correctly if the combined wattage of the bulbs is within a specified range. I don't know any way of finding out the exact details for your transformers, other than by finding the transformers and looking at the label on the side. I have three transformers, each feeding two sockets, and I'm guessing you will also have several transformers, each feeding a few bulbs.
One way to find the transformers is with an AM radio; you'll likely pick up the buzzing all through your house, but it should get a great deal louder as you get close to the transformers. In my case, the transformers were concealed inside the ceiling void. After finding them with the radio , I managed to get sight of the labels by removing one of the sockets from the ceiling, then poking a digital camera through the hole, taking photos in random directions until I got lucky. But if you have any doubts whatsoever, I would entrust such detective work to an electrician. If the transformers are properly isolated then you may not get electrocuted by 12V, but the current through the wires is substantial (much greater than for a 240v bulb) and so presents a fire risk if a fault arises. Moreover, there would also be 240V cables snaking around to feed the transformers, so the risk of electrocution remains.
To put it in context, my 3 transformers in total rob me of about 1 or 2dB of noise margin, which translates to connecting at maybe 3.8Mbit with the lights on, or 4Mbit with them off, so it's certainly not worth ripping out ceilings to replace them. It don't think it should really be a problem, unless the transformers are faulty or the phone lines are excessively vulnerable.
Then again, I do remember in the early days of my DSL, before sorting out my wiring in accordance with kitz's guides, I did have problems with the connection failing completely soon after dark. I never made the association then with the halogen lights but, with hindsight, it is possible they were the reason. You may find optimising the wiring makes all the difference in the world....
Good luck with that. :)
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Interesting. Presumably the more transformers there are, feeding into the 240V circuit, the more potential for interference there is. Clearly our problem is more acute than yours was. The only thing that I wonder about is that I lugged a cupboard downstairs the night before we started having a problem. I wonder if I moved something in the ceiling cavity in the process that has caused more interference to happen. Seems daft I know. Have you ever tried putting RF filters on the power line? I think your idea of using a camera is good, I might be able to get my phone up into the cavity.
Would the problem occur if too little strain was being put on the transformer? They shouldn't be overtaxed, they have less powerful bulbs now than when we first moved in. I wonder if one of the bulbs could be faulty - could a bulb "arcing" cause RF interference? They all look OK to the naked eye... sigh... I'm starting to believe in Gremlins when it comes to this house, I really am...
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I'm starting to believe in Gremlins when it comes to this house, I really am...
Lol next you will be telling us a zombie Apocalypse is coming our way :lol:
Gary
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I've read about the bell wire, I need to have a look at that. From memory I think we have a LJU2 Master but again I need to check - no test socket, we've certainly never had it switched out since we've been in the house. Where would the NTE5 typically live, assuming that there was one? Could we ask BT to fit one, presumably at a price?
In terms of vulnerability to interference, well, the junction point to the house looks about as old as the house which is, well, old. They recently shifted our pole lines underground, so the outside line comes up from the pavement through a small grey box enclosure and then up in parallel to the mains power line (some separation, granted) up to the guttering level, then I think along to a black junction box then back down into the house. Even then I'm not entirely sure what route it follows because there are two extensions upstairs, neither of which we use.
:hmm: Hmm . . . It does read as if your non-optimised-for-DSL-wiring is a contributory factor to your woes. If you are definite that you do not have an NTE5/A anywhere in your home, I would suggest that you contact your ISP and tell them of that non-existence. Let them know that you would like to fit a SSF (service specific faceplate) but you are currently unable to do so due to the antique wiring and sockets. Say that you would appreciate an Openreach visit to rationalise / normalise the wiring. That will then get you an NTE5/A fitted. If the engineer is in a good mood -- provide tea / coffee / chocolate biscuits / bacon sandwiches -- you might be able to persuade her / him to replace the service cable into your home to provide a direct feed to the new NTE5/A. (Thus abandoning the up / around / in / down / who-knows-where route that the existing, probably well jointed, service cable currently takes.)
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Hello burakkucat. I'm surprised this is even a possibility, I thought the internal wiring was the homeowner's responsibility? Or is it BT's up until the point of termination, hence them being persuadable to put a new socket in? Thing is, Sky fought us tooth and nail before begrudgingly agreeing to send a new router out so I'm really not sure they'll pay for an Openreach engineer to come out "just because"?
I have however had a minor brain wave which irritatingly comes at a time when I can't immediately test it. I'm wondering if the electronic dimmer downstairs might itself be an issue, because my wife now tells me that the lights went down and up slowly - not just on and off, which seems a little odd. So I'm going to take the router upstairs to one of the extension points we don't use to try and get some distance on that dimmer. I guess ultimately if the line is "infected" with interference then it might make no difference, but I thought it would be worth a try in order to eliminate possibilities.
Incidentally I apologise if I'm rambling on this thread, but I thought it might be of historical interest down the line if someone were experiencing something similar.
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I'm starting to believe in Gremlins when it comes to this house, I really am...
Lol next you will be telling us a zombie Apocalypse is coming our way :lol:
Gary
Look behind you.
It has already begun.
>:D MUAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
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I thought the internal wiring was the homeowner's responsibility? Or is it BT's up until the point of termination, hence them being persuadable to put a new socket in?
All wiring and sockets prior to the network termination point (NTP) are the responsibility of Openreach. In the case of a domestic situation, the NTP is defined as an NTE5/A (or an NTE5/B).
Wiring and sockets downstream from the NTP are the customer's responsibility. Until such time as Openreach fit a recognised NTP for you, all of that wiring and all of the sockets within your home are the responsibility of Openreach.
The cost to rationalise / normalise a legacy set-up, such as currently existing in your home, will be free to you and free to your ISP (Sky). Openreach will not charge for that service because it is in their own interest to provide it. Once the work has been done and an appropriate NTP is fitted (an NTE5/A, in this case), it frees them of all responsibility of whatever may be connected downstream of the NTP.
It is surprising how many ISPs and their respective customers that are unaware of the above facts.
Please feel free to show Sky a copy of this posting. :)
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Well I'll be. I'd better make bloomin' sure there isn't another socket lurking somewhere then, although I can't imagine there can be. When did NTE5s become the norm? I'm not sure I've ever had a test socket, anywhere. I'm sure it will be an old(ish) installation. But maybe I still need to bottom out the source of this interference, otherwise a new socket may not make much odds. I was familiar with the concept of them being responsible up to the point the line hits the interior, but had no idea there was a minimum standard of termination required. Learn something new every day...
Back on the original topic, if there is interference on the line, why does only my downstream noise get impacted? The upstream figure remains stable...
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100% agree with BK. Cause you have no test point to isolate internal wiring then it is OR obligation to come out and fix your wiring up to standards free of charge. Your line provider can get this engineer arranged for you all you got to do is ring up and ask. They may advise of charges but don't worry about that you will only be charged if you have taken a hammer to BT's network and destroyed your excisting socket or gone rampage on the actually line with a flame thrower or perhaps a sawn off shotgun :lol: Other than that you will get the socket upgraded and wiring upgraded all free of charge ;D
Gary
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Back on the original topic, if there is interference on the line, why does only my downstream noise get impacted? The upstream figure remains stable...
Ah, that's quite easy to explain. :graduate: The frequencies involved.
First of all, recall that the modulation technique used is DMT (discreet multi-tone). The total available bandwidth is split into separate tones or channels. For ADSL or ADSL2, there are 256 channels available. For ADSL2+, there are 512 channels available. Each of those channels is 4.3125 kHz wide. There are two blocks of channels defined for an ADSL service, the upstream band (US) and the downstream band (DS). The US band is lower in frequency to the DS band.
As an example, attached below, are "screen-scrapes" of the bit loading per channel for my line. I've split it into two, the lower frequency US band and the higher frequency DS band. (I have an ADSL2+ service but due to the line length, thus the attenuation and other factors, my modem/router selects ADSL2 mode. Hence 256 available channels.)
More channels are used by the DS band than the US band. (The asymmetric part of ADSL.) The DS band runs from approximately 142 kHz to 1100 kHz whereas the US band runs from approximately 26 kHz to 129 kHz (I've rounded the frequency to the nearest 1 kHz).
So, basically, the more (in terms of numbers) "higher frequencies" used the more chance to be "splatted". A higher frequency channel will tend to be attenuated more than a lower frequency one -- hence less "carrying power" (as in "staying power").
Finally, look at that notch at channel 46. That corresponds to the Droitwich transmitter, on 198 kHz in the LW broadcast band. A long wavelength signal (low frequency, LF) will propagate further than a medium wavelength or short wavelength (MF or HF) signal.
I've probably typed far too much and in a confusing fashion. :-[ I'm sure if you look at the main Kitz site you will find a far more eloquent description. :)
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Caution - these images contain images telecom tinkerers may find disturbing. I think the black line is the outside feed in. But it has yellow unconnected wires? Not the colours stated here. Then an alarm link up but also not visible outside another white line that presumably feeds the extensions upstairs. I think they're picking up the interference. What would be the most effective way to isolate them without wrecking the primary wire? Would Openreach have a fit if they saw this?
http://via.me/-wko3ai (http://via.me/-wko3ai) http://via.me/-wko4fy (http://via.me/-wko4fy)
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Caution - these images contain images telecom tinkerers may find disturbing. I think the black line is the outside feed in. But it has yellow unconnected wires? Not the colours stated here. Then an alarm link up but also not visible outside another white line that presumably feeds the extensions upstairs. I think they're picking up the interference. What would be the most effective way to isolate them without wrecking the primary wire? Would Openreach have a fit if they saw this?
http://via.me/-wko3ai (http://via.me/-wko3ai) http://via.me/-wko4fy (http://via.me/-wko4fy)
Let's work through things, step-wise. First and foremost I won't ask the questions: "Who is Andy Thomas? And why does he make is so difficult to download a copy of those two images?" because the former is best left unanswered and the latter has been achieved by some feline cunning. To prove the latter point, I attach the two images below. :P
Now some clarification, please. Am I correct in assuming both images are of the same socket?
I think the black line is the outside feed in. But it has yellow unconnected wires? Not the colours stated here.
Correct, two-fold. Don't worry about the colours or the unconnected yellow wires -- it is the end of an external grade, multi-pair cable you are looking at.
Then an alarm link up but also not visible outside another white line that presumably feeds the extensions upstairs.
??? Huh?. Please explain again, as b*cat has no idea what it is that you are attempting to describe. :-\
I think they're picking up the interference.
That is a distinct possibility. ;)
What would be the most effective way to isolate them without wrecking the primary wire?
No comment can possibly be made until a full understanding of the current wiring configuration is known. There's many a way to skin a donkey (deceased, as a result of old age).
Would Openreach have a fit if they saw this?
No. :no: Just a figurative "Big Sigh". That is a prime example of what Openreach regularly come across every working day and the wiring would be rationalised / normalised by fitting an NTE5/A in place of that existing master socket. At no cost to your ISP or yourself.
If you are determined to take the DIY route, I will need to have the above mysterious sentence translated plus further pictures of the insides of each of the other sockets. Also, I will need to have a clear description of the terminal to which each coloured wire is connected and from which cable the wire originates. :-X
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My apologies, let me clarify. Photo was taken on my mobile of the same socket. Too big to attach, only other think I could do was Twitter it and use those image links. Call it a workaround for speed!
So, black cable is outside cable. Shiny. We have an alarm system which can call us and allow us to tell a thief to get lost should the need arise. This involves a cable running into this master socket. Obviously your telepathy isn't working in this weather! The white wire with the bell wire wrapped around it looks to be that one. There is then a second white wire. My best guess is that it's feeding the extension - it seems to go into the wall behind the socket because you can't see it externally (whereas you can with the alarm).
Now, the extension boxes are just that - one socket boxes connected to white wires. One has a single wire exiting, one has two. Just simple PCBs in them. These are both on the first floor. Which is, of course, where the ground floor halogens are closest too. These are both "floating" boxes - not sockets attached to a wall. My guess would be that the white wire from the master socket goes up to the double-wired box, which then feeds on to the final extension. Does that seem reasonable?
At this point I am certainly minded to call in Openreach and bribe them heavily to simply kill off the extensions and keep the alarm wire in place.
Would I be correct in assuming that those extension cables are going to be an issue even if I just literally chop them off? If I'm unlucky would I still end up with interference from the first floor? Best to remove the problem at the master socket?
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Ah, yes. Now I "see" it. Thank you for squeezing out the water, which was causing the confusion!
You can certainly perform some DIY but, of course, the alarm system is an added complication. Yet another question for you: Is it a monitored alarm system (i.e. monitored via the telephone circuit) or does it just make a call to a pre-programmed number if it, the alarm, is triggered? I suspect it is the latter case and, so, we will have no real problems.
This is what I would like you to do, please. At the master socket, make a clear identifying mark on the white sheath of the cable which you presume to be the connected to the alarm. So now we can talk about the "black", "white marked" and "white" cables. Next, identify which coloured wires, from which cable, are connected to the six screw terminals (numbered 1 to 6). Upstairs, at the "two white cables" socket note the coloured wires, from which cables and similarly the same from the "one white cable" socket.
Once you have all that information collated, please post it for my consideration. :)
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Hello Burakkucat, yes, your telepathy seems to be back on, the alarm box just calls us. Not monitored. As for further investigations - that will probably have to wait until the wife is out of the house and to be honest I really don't think she's going to let me do any more work on it! If she gets frustrated enough I'm sure we'll end up with Openreach out and I think that would be by far the best option. If I do something silly and kill our phone line my life will literally not be worth living! If I do get an opportunity one evening I'll try and gather the information, if only for interest, if Openreach don't get there first!
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I understand. :-X
Mrs E, a.k.a. "She who must be obeyed" or "'Er indoors", appears to read as a very formidable lady. I certainly wouldn't like to meet the soggy-end of her mop, out in the back entry, if she was both busy and in a bad mood! :no:
It is unfortunate that you do not live in my home town, for I would happily pad around and put things to rights! (Claws are so useful for manipulating a solitary wire out of a bundle.) ::)
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Well, this is the extension box upstairs that has two wires coming out of it. It looks... evil. Clearly two wires feeding out from the same attachment point. Can't be healthy from an interference point of view? Problem is, I don't even know where this is fed from - how it's routed upstairs. It must go near the light transformers one way or another. Presumably the second upstairs extension feeds off this one, as it only has one cable going into it. The mind boggles.
Had a look at the lights last night; hard to see, but probably a transformer set up and I could see a thick gray cord running towards our inside wall, assuming that's repeated then the telephone wire for the extensions must cut across them at some point.
Even if the transformers were working fine, which they may not be, I can't see how this set-up is ever going to not cause interference. Perhaps we've just been lucky until this point not to have noticed it and chalked poor speeds up to where we are. Very, very tempted to just try and disconnect the extension if I can't get Openreach out, but I'd need to do it at the master socket to take that wiring out of the equation? Such a shame we don't have the test socket...
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It's not too bad, compared to some of the wiring I have seen. ;)
I note some botcher has previously snipped the orange-with-white-stripe wires from terminal three. Obviously the work of the previous owner of your house. :-X
It will be a very simple job to disconnect those two (upstairs) extension sockets. To empower you with the knowledge and confidence to achieve the required result, I shall refer you back to my posting, two ago. In particular --
This is what I would like you to do, please. At the master socket, make a clear identifying mark on the white sheath of the cable which you presume to be the connected to the alarm. So now we can talk about the "black", "white marked" and "white" cables. Next, identify which coloured wires, from which cable, are connected to the six screw terminals (numbered 1 to 6).
Let me know the wire colours, from which cable, to which screw terminal and I will provide you with a plan of action. :)
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OK bcat I'll see about doing that - I've tried cleaning up the sockets upstairs but a lack of ring wire makes no odds whatsoever, so I think the disconnection option is best. I've found a decent implement to unscrew the blue connector points so I'll try and look at the wiring in due course. Thanks for the kind offer.
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I've found a decent implement to unscrew the blue connector points
In past-times, such a device was known as a "turn-screw". Nowadays that thingy, which SHMBO uses to open a can of treacle or to pick the stones out of the soles of her hiking-boots, is known as a screwdriver. ;)
In your own time (and before disconnecting anything) let me known the exact wire colours, cables and terminals thus connected.
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Alllllrighty then. Let's see if this makes sense to you, because it doesn't make much sense to me! So, we have three cables coming into the box:
Black - presumably from outside
Black/white - from the alarm box
White - presumably feeding the upstairs extensions
The Black line feeds an Orange wire to terminal 5 and a white wire to terminal 2.
The Black/White line feeds a Blue-white dashed wire to terminal 2 and a White-blue dashed wire to terminal 5.
The White line is busy. It feeds a Green-white dashed wire to terminal 1. A White-orange dashed wire to terminal 4. An Orange-white dashed wire to terminal 3. A White-green dashed wire to terminal 6. A White-blue dashed wire to terminal 5.
So everything connects to terminal 5. The White line connects to all the terminals except 2, which the other 2 leads attach to.
Confused am I. May the 4th be with you!
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May the 4th be with you!
:D
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Alllllrighty then. Let's see if this makes sense to you, because it doesn't make much sense to me!
<snip>
Confused am I. May the 4th be with you!
Yes, it does make sense to me. :)
I agree with your assignment of the three cables:
Black sheathed cable -- incoming service feed, using the orange and the white wires for the pair.
White sheathed cable with an added black identifier -- to the alarm, using the white/blue striped and the blue/white striped wires.
White sheathed cable -- to the extension sockets, partially disconnected.
This is my plan of action:
(1) At the master socket, carefully unscrew each of the terminals and remove every wire! Try to ensure that the orange and white wires of the incoming service feed (black sheathed cable) do not come into contact. (No harm will be done if thy do -- just try not to do so.)
(2) For the black sheathed cable, ensure that all the unused wires are folded back, so that they do not get in the way. Check the bare ends of the orange and white wires to ensure that the exposed core is not about to break off and will be good for eventual reconnection.
(3) For the white sheathed cable with the black identifying mark (to the alarm), do likewise, with the blue/white striped and white/blue striped wires.
(4) For the white sheathed cable (to the extensions), draw all the six wires straight together and carefully trim the entire bundle such that there are no exposed cores. Wind those six wires around two of your fingers and then flatten the resulting coil down into a sausage shape. When you come to refit the master socket to the backing box, you should ensure that wire sausage is tucked out of the way, to one side.
(5) Now the reconnection: (a) The white wire from the black sheathed cable and the blue/white striped wire from the alarm cable should be connected to terminal number two. (b) The orange wire from the black sheathed cable and the white/blue striped wire from the alarm cable should be connected to terminal number five.
(6) Carefully arrange the cables within the backing box (I can see from one of the images that there is not much clearance and that the alarm cable has been crushed somewhat in the past) and refit the socket to the backing box.
Job done. ;D
You might like to perform an alarm test to ensure that when it is triggered, it does make a successful call to the designated number.
The next phase should be to contact your ISP and let them know that you do not have a designated NTP -- an NTE5/A -- so you do not have a test socket and are unable to fit an SSFP. Also mention that you have a hard-wired alarm system and you would appreciate an Openreach engineering visit to "normalise" your wiring with the fitting of an NTE5/A. Remind them that it will be a FOC service by Openreach . . .
Once all of the above is done, we can then continue to monitor how your Broadband connection behaves and suggest other things to try, if necessary.
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Sir, if I'm reading this right, we have full power.
Go, Sulu!
Well, warp speed it isn't but it's a damn sight better. The low noise margin has more than doubled to about the 7.5db mark - with the lights full on. Download speed is up to a little over 2MB on router stats, not sure it's ever shown a 2... before. New router is certainly helping I think but the lights have never had so little impact. I think there's still an impact there, but it's massively reduced. Thank you very, very much one and all and especially you burakkucat for your superb instructions. I may still get a cheap radio because clearly those transformers are kicking out interference, but I'll see how it is after the line's settled again. Hope this assists someone else encountering similar problems.
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I may still get a cheap radio because clearly those transformers are kicking out interference
They're not all that common in these days of digital synthesis. But I did acquire a nice little old fashioned analogue one, perfect for this job, as a prize for the penny machines at one of the South Coast resorts last year, maybe Hastings, I'm not sure. But If you're feeling lucky, live near the seaside and have time on your hands... :D
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Sir, if I'm reading this right, we have full power.
Go, Sulu!
^-^ b*cat smiles, inscrutably, and gives one of his best Japanese-style bows. Thank you, kind sir, for your compliment. :)
You may well obtain a further improvement, once Openreach have fitted an NTE5/A. Why? Because at the moment, the cable that connects to the alarm is acting as a "bridged tap" for the xDSL signal. The alarm system either needs to be connected via its own (hardwired) filter or from the telephony side of a SSFP -- which you currently are not able to fit due to the absence of a NTP. :-X
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Well this is interesting. 24 hrs on, the lights are definitely having no impact and the stats are quite dramatically changed in terms of up and down - down is not greater than up, noise margin wise, which was never the case before. I don't understand why? Very different to the original readings several pages back, looks better?
Downstream
Upstream
Connection Speed
2043 kbps (Down)
798 kbps (Up)
Line Attenuation
56.5 dB (Down)
29.4 dB (Up)
Noise Margin
9.0 dB (Down)
6.0 dB (Up)
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Yes, definitely looks better. :thumbs: :dance:
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The downstream connection speed now seems to have settled to just over 3000. I would have thought that's as good as it's going to get with our distance from the exchange. Incredible that the upstairs extension sockets were causing so much interference, even with the lights off we weren't previously attaining that sort of speed so the wiring up there must just have been soaking up whatever interference was around and passing it all down to the master socket. God knows what the cabling actually looks like, I hope we never have to find out! Really good to get this sorted now, because in theory we should get FTTC before long although there are no signs of upgrade work as yet. I dare say that will be another adventure...!
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a round of applause please for burakkucat in recognition of his expertise in remote viewing and distance wiring ;D
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Standing evasion for BK and his outstanding instructions on wiring which to be fair i just got my head around just over half of it lol. The only part i really understood was the wiring part for the extensions (white cable with blue/white and white/blue) :lol:
Gary
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a round of applause please for burakkucat in recognition of his expertise in remote viewing and distance wiring ;D
None of that would have been possible without the initial discussions with GPO Telephone Engineers, which took place a very long time ago, when burakkucat was just a burakkukitten!
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Standing evasion for BK . . .
I guess you must have had prior experience of evading a feline paw swipe, complete with exposed claws, Gary? ;)
I thank you for the attempt at an ovation but would far prefer a lick of double-cream, a glass of Bushmills Whiskey or other similar treats. :)
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How about a tub of ben and jerry's :lol: Damn spelt ovasion wrong really need to get my spelling right next time 8)
Gary
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(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madaboutcats.com%2FImages%2Fstpics%2Ffs-cat-birthday-card-5.jpg&hash=e04f6e3efb4dbac85d4c27ecdb89f8ba8b5f49a6)
One squirt or two, sir?
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How about a tub of ben and jerry's :lol:
Thank you. That is appreciated. :yum:
I'll just finish licking out the tub before Asbokid finds me. :P