Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: roseway on April 16, 2008, 11:44:15 AM
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A couple of days ago a message was posted on TBB saying that the poster had been stuck with a 15 dB target noise margin, but after he installed a Billion Bipac 5200g router his target noise margin immediately fell to 6 dB and his connection speed rose by about 2 Mbps. This seemed most unlikely, probably just coincidence, and I suggested this to him.
However I had the opportunity to try out one of these routers on my connection, which has also been stuck at 15 dB. Rather to my amazement, it immediately came up with a noise margin of 6 dB and a higher connection speed than I've ever had before (7360 kbps). I'm still a bit gobsmacked, but it does look as though this router has the capability to force the target noise margin back to its default.
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Ooooo...... interesting!
What happens if you then put another router back on the line? Is the target SNR still back at default?
If so, it might be worth investing in one of these routers - you could 'hire it out' to people who want to reset their noise margins ;)
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I don't know if I'm willing at present to swap the router back, when I'm getting such an improved connection. :-\
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Fascinating. I'm also stuck at 15db at the moment and I don't trust the DLM to lower it anytime soon.
What is the chipset in that router?
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It's a TrendChip 3162 chipset, the same as is used on a number of other Billion routers. Not a chipset I'm familiar with at all.
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After a quick google on the matter, I've seen a few comments about lower noise margin and improved speeds. :)
One for Kitz to get her teeth into methinks.
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I've been following that TBB thread...
Can you post your line stats to give us some more to think about?
If you are syncing at 7360 I'm guessing your line is quite short/good.
Also how is your SNRM looking over night?
All interesting stuff.
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Here are my current stats:
Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin: 5.0 22.0 dB
Line Attenuation: 45.0 24.5 dB
Data Rate: 7360 448 kbps
As you can see, it's not a particularly short line. The indicated downstream attenuation is higher than reported by other routers - they all report 41 - 42 dB
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Wow. That's a good speed for that line length. How much variation in the noise margin are you seeing?
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I only installed it 8 hours ago, so I don't know the answer to that question. Tomorrow morning I'll have a better idea.
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As I expected, the router reconnected at a lower speed during the night, but still with the 6 dB noise margin. It's now at the level I had before my line had the temporary fault a few weeks ago. So my IP profile should be back where it was very soon. It's definitely looking like a result. :)
I've been poking around in the CLI to see what I can find. It has a command which appears to set the target noise margin directly, and at the moment it's set to zero which is presumably the default. At the moment I haven't got a manual for the CLI, so I'm not going to change anything now, but when I've traced a manual I might have a play.
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Definitely one to keep an eye on! I'd really love to know if it's permanently fixed it or whether it's just that router that somehow manages to temporarily override the DSLAM. Not expecting or asking you to try it Eric of course, given the delicate nature of IP profiles and sync speeds, but can't help wondering ;)
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I'm an inveterate fiddler as you know, so I'll probably be having another go at breaking things quite soon. :)
My IP profile is now back where it belongs, less than 24 hours after installing the new router. :dance:
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hmmm very interesting - like you I would have thought co-incidence at first, but from what you say it would appear to be over-riding the default.
I wonder if there is something somewhere which specifically allows this router to do this... and if so where... it could make it a bit of a winner for some. That does seem a pretty good sync for your line.
Hows it holding out with errors count?
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Fairly modest error counts after nearly two days of uptime:
router> wan adsl perfdata
near-end FEC error fast: 0
near-end FEC error interleaved: 9789
near-end CRC error fast: 0
near-end CRC error interleaved: 1002
near-end HEC error fast: 0
near-end HEC error interleaved: 11585
far-end FEC error fast: 0
far-end FEC error interleaved: 21
far-end CRC error fast: 0
far-end CRC error interleaved: 1
far-end HEC error fast: 0
far-end HEC error interleaved: 1
Error second in 15min : 4
Error second in 24hr : 55
Error second after power-up : 655
ADSL uptime 43:40:27
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>> Fairly modest error counts after nearly two days of uptime:
System should cope fine with 4 ES in 15 mins :)
Actually in view of the new sync speed IMHO its doing pretty good. Seems more stable in the past 24 hours than the previous :)
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Yes it does. At the moment I'm plucking up courage to have a play with the target noise margin setting command. I've located a CLI manual for the 5100 (its predecessor) but its description of the commands is rather terse. All it says is:
1.139 wan adsl targetnoise
Description Use this command to set adsl transmission target noise margin.
Command Syntax wan adsl targetnoise
Output field description
sys>wan adsl targetnoise
usage: gain value should be snr margin(dB) * 512
current value:900
On my 5200g the current value is zero.
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Hmm - zero may mean 'default' - perhaps try setting to 900 and see what happens.... difficult one cuz I'm sure the last thing you want is to upset the DLM again!
To tweak or not to tweak!...
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If and when I try it, I'll do so in the middle of the day when interference levels are lowest. I would certainly like to get to the bottom of this one, if only for the technical interest. And if it works then we have another tool to offer people.
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Absolutely - and I'm sure we all appreciate you sharing your findings with us :)
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Well, I've had a play and got absolutely nowhere. I've tried various values, but none of them seem to be accepted, because reading the value back still shows the default zero value. There's a startup file called autoexec.net which can be edited from the CLI to add commands like this, and I've tried that too, but after rebooting the router it still has the same 6 dB noise margin.
So for the moment I'm stumped. Billion routers seem to get quite a bit of mention in the whirlpool.au forums, so I'm going to have a look there next.
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They're aussie routers aren't they? Probably why they're mentioned a lot on the whirlpool forums.
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They're aussie routers aren't they? Probably why they're mentioned a lot on the whirlpool forums.
I don't think they are:
Billion Electric Co. Ltd. (Taiex: #3027), based in Taiwan, was founded in 1973...
www.billion.com/corporate.html
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Oh, well I wonder where I gleaned that misinformation from? :-[
Perhaps just that they seem to be more popular in Oz - or were distributed there before they came over here... I dunno :'(
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The chap on TBB who first brought this to our attention has bravely put back his ST585 to see what happens. His noise margin immediately went back to 15 dB, so he reconnected the Billion post haste.
So that question has been answered - the 5200G doesn't actually reset the target noise margin, it simply forces it at connection time.
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Interesting... good in one way, but I've just thought about the ramifications for people plagued by EMI who need a higher SNR margin!
In fact, things could get to the stage where an engineer is called out, plugs his little Voyager 105 in, and it connects at 15dB SNR, and the engineer will obviously have to blame the end user's router for the problems, £150 thank you very much ???
There ought to be an easy way through the web interface of turning it off, if the router's going to pull its SNR stunt on every line. Don't think there's a way to DMT tweak it either :-\
Sorry for the doom-n-gloom post, but it was just a thought that occurred to me!
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No need to be sorry, you're quite right. In my position I'm delighted to have the possibility to force the target noise margin to its default value, but as you say, it wouldn't be so good for a line which needs the higher margin for stability. I've no idea how this router would respond on an unstable connection. The other thing I don't know is whether it inhibits DLM from lowering the target automatically on a stable line.
I haven't yet had the opportunity to trawl the whirlpool forums, but I will do that soon.
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How's this performing then guys? Still holding the high link speeds? Is it worth buying one?
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On my particular line this is the best router I've used, and I've used most of the popular ones. It has increased my IP profile by one step (from 5000 to 5500) and is very stable, with a pretty low error rate. I'm delighted with it, but of course there's no guarantee that it will perform so well on any other line.
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Thanks! Have you by any chance used 2WIRE 1800HG and if yes, how does it compare with the BiPAC?
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No, I haven't used that one.
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I read this thread with great interest and subsequently purchased a Billion 5200g off ebay for the grand sum of £3 !
True enough the router would synch at 6-7db, whereas the SNR set on my line seems to currently be 15db, this resulted in me gettting a much better connection speed and my IP profile raised as a result.
I then read about the XP SP3 issues with this router (which would affect me when SP3 is deployed via auto updates) and applied the latest f/w. This unfortunately has removed the special ability of this router and I'm back to a SNR or 15db.
Does anybody have an older f/w or link to one, that I can reflash with?
Many Thanks,
Tim
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That's rough. I was thinking of applying that upgrade even though I don't need it, but I'm glad I didn't now. The router doesn't seem to have any facility to save the current firmware, otherwise I could copy mine for you. There's some firmware here (http://driverscollection.com/?H=BiPAC%205200G&By=Billion) and here (http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/FIRMWARE/Others/Billio-BiPAC-5200G-Firmware-21050.shtml) but I don't know anything about its origin. You would need the Annex A version.
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Thanks Roseway.
I had found the same version as you have given me links to, unfortunately when I try to apply that f/w I get the following message:
"ERROR: FAIL TO UPDATE DUE TO... The uploaded file was not accepted by the router."
I'm not sure if this means the file is incompatible (I have tried from a number of sources), or that you cannot downgrade to an earlier version.
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Billion do have a UK office. Maybe they could help?