Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: jelv on May 25, 2021, 10:00:07 AM
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[Moderator note: This post and those that follow have been split off to create a separate topic, at Weaver's request.]
Have you looked in to Starlink? I can't see you ever getting a reliable service through land lines.
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Starlink should give you 50 to 150 megabits per second and latency from 20 to 40 milliseconds, but that is likely to improve as more satellites are launched.
Edit: Reading their FAQ (https://www.starlink.com/faq) there's an app you can download to assess the field of view where you intend to install the dish.
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As I can't see a fibre link being provisioned to "The Weaving Shed" by this time next Thursday, I keep coming back to the LEO satellite option . . . As suggested by jelv, earlier in this thread.
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As I can't see a fibre link being provisioned to "The Weaving Shed" by this time next Thursday,
Or even the next 100 Thursdays!
I wondered if there are a number of others in the area who would also like much better speeds and perhaps the threat of a mass defection might push OpenReach in to a more sustainable solution?
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Have you looked in to Starlink? I can't see you ever getting a reliable service through land lines.
Looks really good for a rural option https://mobile.twitter.com/hazardontrack/status/1373702159695552513
[Moderator edited to remove an error message.]
Tweets from a starlink beta user above, speed tests look incredible
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Moderators, could we split this last portion of the thread off? re Starlink
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I can see a downside if Weaver went to Starlink.
There will people on here who will currently take some consolation from reading his posts and thinking "well at least my service isn't as bad as his"!
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I can see a downside if Weaver went to Starlink.
There will people on here who will currently take some consolation from reading his posts and thinking "well at least my service isn't as bad as his"!
Huge savings though instead of paying for 4 lines.
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Should be almost half the price for a vastly superior service, no? Plus no myriad of potential points of failure.
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I'd be surprised if Weaver went for this, I think he's too attached / reliant on A&A, but his wife and her customers would certainly benefit.
Mind you he could still use A&A over the link, just the speed would be limited to 100Mbps, which is still a vast improvement.
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I could indeed use this with L2TP, as Ronski points out.
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You could even split your stuff off over L2TP, and the holiday guest's could be separated and not use the L2TP connection, effectively two separate networks over the same connection.
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We were thinking about providing a service to guests way back in 2011, which is one reason why I budgeted ly for a /26 not a /27 and so asked AA for the upgrade, filled out the form with our plans. The plan of providing this service to guests never happened though. I became a lot more ill and Janet decided rightly that she wasn’t going to make any money out of providing this service, but rather in fact just lose a lot of money and we have excellent 4G anyway.
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If you go the L2TP route worth confirming with A&A that you can carry the subnet over. As you've already completed a form they should really have rejected and their handing out /27s without one was dicey ;) you'll probably be fine.
New L2TP customers can only have a single IPv4 address.
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:) FYI We weren't lying to anyone; those genuinely were our plans back in c. 2011. We wanted enough space back then for our own machines, for a DHCP pool for our own personal visitors, one for a a tenant and his machines and for b&b guests, so 32 IPs was limiting, and renumbering would be required for growth. And AA believed "NAT was evil ;-)". So we asked AA if we could have a /26 instead of a /27, going up from the then current /28, and they said yes. And it was FOC. Which is superb.
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Apols if I missed it or if it has already been discussed... but I cant help wondering how Weaver would fare with respect to applying with the USO (https://www.bt.com/broadband/USO). The USO is supposed to ensure everyone has the right to an affordable broadband connection of at least 10Mb. I'm quite sure that the current solution falls outside what Ofcom defines as affordable (£46.37).... but I also wonder where AAISP would fit into this and if it may mean relying on 4G or BT.
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Never suggested for a minute anyone lied. Know well how relaxed A&A were.
The 100 Mb L2TP limit will be going up once A&A have their 10 Gb Firebricks going so this could be a great solution.
If 4G is good that eliminates the USO as an avenue.
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. . . but I cant help wondering how Weaver would fare with respect to applying with the USO (https://www.bt.com/broadband/USO). The USO is supposed to ensure everyone has the right to an affordable broadband connection of at least 10Mb.
The village of Heasta has been consistently ignored but, knowing the full address of "The Weaving Shed", I took the above link and entered the relevant details. The result is paraphrased below --
It looks like your address might be eligible for a network upgrade
Please call our dedicated help desk on 0800 783 0223 – lines are open Monday to Friday from 9am to 5pm
The significant word is "might" and I suspect it is used in the same context as pigs & flying. (With apologies to our licquorice, of course.)
I believe when CarlT made some informal enquiries regarding FTTPoD the estimated price was six digits. I don't know how many addresses actually exist in Heasta but if, for example, there are one hundred (which I know is not true) the price per property might just be acceptable as a community led project . . . :-\
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A digital pump then community build, not Openreach, seems the best way to go.
Pretty spread out, if enough privately owned land a B4RN solution looks good.
Failing that a bit of a wait for public funding.
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If it were me, I'd still request enquire as it would be interesting to know just what the work required and how much the estimated costs would be. There's no charge for contacting them and requesting the information.
I'd also be seeing if I could get other locals to enquire
"It’s important to get as many eligible premises in your area as possible to register their interest by calling the above number.
If more than 70% of eligible premises register in your network build area, our contribution goes up and the amount you need to raise goes down."
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I agree a formal USO quote would be interesting. If 70% of premises register interest, BT double the £3,400 they contribute per property.
The other bit of good news is that as BT have confirmed that c.80% of UK premises will be covered by their commercial FTTP build, that leaves less for BDUK to ultimately cover.
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He's covered by the Scottish R100 program, but no telling when it would be installed, if ever. Here and now the best solution probably is Starlink, followed by 4G.
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Whenever I try Weaver's postcode on https://www.scotlandsuperfast.com/the-r100-programme/check-my-address/ I never get any results for some reason..
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I was very happy until the lightning strike of early 2020. Following that nothing has ever seemed to be right.
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Whenever I try Weaver's postcode on https://www.scotlandsuperfast.com/the-r100-programme/check-my-address/ I never get any results for some reason..
It accepts Weaver's postcode but the "Select Your Address" box that is subsequently shown does not have Torr Gorm in its list. ???
Subsequent edit --
I selected the address 1, Heaste, Broadford, Isle Of Skye and it showed a map with circle essentially on Torr Gorm. Also displayed was --
A new superfast connection is being built in your area. It's part of the Scottish Government’s broadband improvement scheme.
Your connection will be delivered after the end of 2021. More details will be available later this year.
The new connection will mean your address can get faster internet speeds. That’ll make it easier to videocall loved ones, watch shows online, work from home, and more – without any hiccups.
What about between now and then?
You may be able to get a one-off £400 voucher from the Scottish Government. You will have to engage a registered provider to apply for this funding on your behalf by 31 December 2021. There is more information about vouchers and providers here (https://scotlandsuperfast.com/how-can-i-get-it/voucher-scheme/)
This voucher can be used for the cost of fitting a faster commercial broadband supply in the meantime. Think of this as a temporary way to speed things up until the permanent connection is up and running. Options might include things like satellite broadband and more.
Still got questions? Here are some handy Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) (https://scotlandsuperfast.com/factsheets-and-faqs/faqs/)
Hmm :hmm:
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A £400 voucher could go towards a Starlink installation.
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Are Starlink one of the registered providers?
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It accepts Weaver's postcode but the "Select Your Address" box that is subsequently shown does not have Torr Gorm in its list. ???
You've got further than me. The 'Select your address' box is always totally blank for me ??? ::)
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You are so good to me, doing all this work. Many many thanks. I am not even sure I have enough concentration to undertake the work required for a radical internet access link swapout. I can’t even see or type properly, the morphine has gone up a lot recently, and you are all aware of my shocking problems with memory and concentration. ;) Still I’m enjoying life a lot, which wasn’t the case a while back.
I would need to really ask Mrs Weaver for a lot of help, but she has physical problems many of which you are not aware of - though the arthritis in her hands is one. Her health is probably worse than mine in fact. She was really enjoying the rest during lockdown and now she’s up and running again with her business she’s enjoying that too. I’ve asked Mrs Weaver to write to our MP Iain Blackford.
One reason why A&A are so fantastic for me is that if I am out of action, then I can tell Janet to just SMS them, email or phone them and they will take it from there, fast.
I’m just pointing out the logic for us is not the same as for ‘normal’ domestic users and we have far heavier reliability requirements, like those of a business because of my own critical communications reliance requirement. I need to be able to contact Janet if she’s outside (in EE 4G coverage) when I need pain relief badly. So this post will allow you to appreciate how different requirements can look solely like mere inertia.
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Are Starlink one of the registered providers?
Don't know, but it is mentioned here https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/04/new-uk-gigabit-voucher-scheme-terms-add-satellite-and-caveats.html but it does go on to say:
On the Satellite change, BDUK confirmed that due to the technical criteria they are NOT “expecting the voucher scheme to fund any satellite connections in the near term” and the main reason for its mention was to ensure a technology neutral approach.
As for the Scottish voucher, Starlink don't appear on the list here https://www.scotlandsuperfast.com/how-can-i-get-it/scottish-broadband-voucher-scheme/
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I don’t know anything much about the R100 scheme. Are they really saying that they will give FTTP to 100% of Scotland’s customers? Is there some timescale?
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Yes they are saying 100%, doing, and time scale, well that's a different thing ::)
https://www.gov.scot/news/delivering-r100/
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I don’t know anything much about the R100 scheme. Are they really saying that they will give FTTP to 100% of Scotland’s customers?
I don't think they are promising FTTP. Their words would allow for FTTC, 4G or even satellite. The seem to focus only on the download bits per second with no regard for latency, data allowance or cost. Illustrated by the fact that in Aberdeenshire at least their "subsidised" and "30 meg" satellite service is actually outperformed by a 3meg ADSL. As tested by our neighbour.
The Reaching 100% (R100) programme is a commitment to provide access to superfast broadband of 30 Megabits per second (Mbps) to every home and business in Scotland.
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A new superfast connection is being built in your area. It's part of the Scottish Government’s broadband improvement scheme.
Your connection will be delivered after the end of 2021. More details will be available later this year.
It gives that exact same result for almost any postcode in Scotland that doesn't have high speed available today. Certainly it gives the same for my address, and for a few others I checked. Note they say "after" but not how long after. The only exception was for the address where we lived 15 years ago where it says ..
It appears that you can currently get up to £5000 from the Scottish Government in the form of a superfast broadband voucher. You can use it for the cost of fitting a new, faster commercial broadband supply. Options could include things like fibre, wireless and more.
Which I think means no form of roll out is expected.
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It gives that exact same result for almost any postcode in Scotland that doesn't have high speed available today. Certainly it gives the same for my address, and for a few others I checked. Note they say "after" but not how long after. The only exception was for the address where we lived 15 years ago where it says ..Which I think means no form of roll out is expected.
They only say nothing planned for my area OE line :( , they did give me a £5000 grant but goodness knows what I'm supposed to do with it other than have high monthly costs . So 100% roll out really means everywhere except places where we don't do it ;)
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Did they actually give you the £5000, or just say that you would be eligible? My understanding is that you would be eligible if your premises are connected to an exchange where there is no plan to ever deploy fibre. Whereas in a case like mine or Weaver's, where the exchange is expected to be upgraded to fibre but your particular premises are likely to be omitted, there is a £400 grant available.
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Have you looked in to Starlink?
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/06/heat-is-the-next-enemy-of-starlinks-satellite-broadband-service.html doesn't sound promising
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https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/06/heat-is-the-next-enemy-of-starlinks-satellite-broadband-service.html doesn't sound promising
Not a problem the Weaving Shed is likely to suffer. :lol:
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Heat no, but wind, rain and snow it would.
If it was mounted on a very solid structure that may rule out the first, but that depends on the construction of the dish itself. It's supposed to be able to detect and melt snow, but how much it can cope with who knows.
Unless it's tried nobody will know how well it would work in that location through out the seasons.
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Wind definitely, but they do point out it handles snow.
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Did they actually give you the £5000, or just say that you would be eligible? My understanding is that you would be eligible if your premises are connected to an exchange where there is no plan to ever deploy fibre. Whereas in a case like mine or Weaver's, where the exchange is expected to be upgraded to fibre but your particular premises are likely to be omitted, there is a £400 grant available.
That's what strange our exchange has been upgraded to fibre but it appears there's no chance of EO lines getting it :( they told me the grant would be £5000 ( but it's not appeared in my bank yet :lol: )
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It also seems quite power hungry which given where Weaver is, either means UPSs and/or a risk of electrical damage..
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It also seems quite power hungry which given where Weaver is, either means UPSs and/or a risk of electrical damage..
Yes the electrical consumption is high compared.
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AAISP has L2TP users over Starlink: https://support.aa.net.uk/L2TP_Starlink
Also: Elon Musk sets out Starlink goals (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57641676) and BT and OneWeb sign rural broadband deal (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57629016)
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So starlink is a custom openwrt build: https://github.com/SpaceExplorationTechnologies/starlink-wifi
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So starlink is a custom openwrt build: https://github.com/SpaceExplorationTechnologies/starlink-wifi
Not that surprising I guess, a LOT of router OS seem to be custom OpenWRT, not all of them obeying the GPL.
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https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/07/average-starlink-broadband-speeds-from-around-the-world.html
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On latency, it’s worth noting that Elon Musk has long spoken of Starlink as being intended to deliver an average latency time of around 20ms. Clearly, not everybody is getting that right now, although some of this may be due to people testing over WiFi and any latency being added by Ookla’s testing platform. However, Musk recently pledged that ping times would “improve dramatically in the coming months … we’re aiming for <20ms.”
I'm impressed if they can get latency down to <20ms.
There was me thinking satellite latency traditionally ran into the multiple hundreds of ms.
I wonder about redundancy and its effects.
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Just did a bit of googling.
There's what appears to be a decent explanation here: Wonder how SpaceX’s StarLink can achieve record low latency? (https://www.bgp4.com/2020/11/09/wonder-how-spacexs-starlink-can-achieve-record-low-latency/)
New York -> London
43ms Starlink
55ms Optical Fibre
There's also an engineering based video discussing Starlink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giQ8xEWjnBs
small snippet of some transcript from the vid
These lasers, like our fibre optic cables here on earth, will use light pulses to transmit information between satellites. Transmitting with light in space offers one massive advantage over transmitting with light on earth. The speed of light is not constant in every material, in fact, light travels 47% slower in glass than in a vacuum. This offers Starlink one huge advantage that will likely be its primary money maker. It provides the potential of lower latency information over long distance
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AAISP latency graph for their 2 customers using their L2TP service over Starlink, averaging 40-50ms
(https://support.aa.net.uk/images/6/6a/Starlink0l2tp.png)
More info: L2TP Starlink (https://support.aa.net.uk/L2TP_Starlink)
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We'd discussed latency on Starlink before - it all comes down to basic physics!
If you had read the article I linked you'd know this was a fact, not a claim.
All satellites up until now have been orbiting at a height of around 20,000 miles. Receiver to satellite, and back to ground station, then back again with the reply is 4x20,000 miles which at the speed of light takes 430 milliseconds before you take anything else in to account. Starlink are low earth orbit satellites at a height of around 300 miles (that's why they need so many to provide continuous service as each one quickly disappears over the horizon), which adds 6ms.
It wouldn't surprise me if for Weaver the latency on Starlink was better than he gets now.
Edit: There's posts in that topic that perhaps should be merged in to this one?
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Very impressive indeed, seems about as consistent as 4G.
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We'd discussed latency on Starlink before - it all comes down to basic physics!
Edit: There's posts in that topic that perhaps should be merged in to this one?
Yes there is, but having just looked not sure if it would tend to break things up in the other thread too much. :(
I'd already pondered this morning, whether it may be an idea to move this thread over to the broadband technology section and to try and keep any talk about the technology to this thread. I must have missed the earlier discussion about the latency, so I was really surprised when I saw just how low it was... so of course I then started thinking how.
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https://www.revk.uk/2022/06/starlink.html
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Not that surprising I guess, a LOT of router OS seem to be custom OpenWRT, not all of them obeying the GPL.
It can now be built, if you are interested:
https://github.com/olegkutkov/starlink-wifi-gen2/
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https://www.revk.uk/2022/06/starlink.html
I'm honestly surprised he doesn't mention how Starlink is not going to be viable long-term (its not an economically viable business model, even ignoring the space trash issue), but I guess his priority is to assess how it works NOW especially alongside AAISP L2TP.
The discussion about Starlink not launching with IPv6 I think says it all really about the lack of real-world forward planning.
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Not launching with IPv6 - absolutely incredible. World IPv6 launch day was what ten years ago? And RIPE’s IPv4 exhaustion was about three years ago or something? A bad joke.
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The peak capacity of the entire starklink system covering the entire globe is 10Tbps.