Post by: j0hn on July 04, 2016, 09:19:21 PM
After months and months of trying to have the availability checker updated, i emailed the CEO Clive Selley and got a personal response from him assuring me it would be fixed. Since then things have moved quite quickly and I've had a number of emails from different departments within OpenReach asking me to clarify some info.
I got a call about half an hour ago from a very helpful chap named Stewart who's coming out to see me tomorrow morning. His email signature states he is "Customer Service Coach, Scotland". He asked what I wanted done to resolve this and I told him I needed either
1) update the availability checker to show I can receive fibre from my current cabinet, or
2) connect to the nearer cabinet that my line runs past as this already shows I can get fibre from it, and that I would MUCH prefer this option if possible, and that he would forever be my hero if he could do this.
Well... providing it's possible, that's exactly what he's going to do for me tomorrow!! the only thing that may stop it is something to do with the DP. If I'm on the same DP as my neighbouring property who's already on the nearer cabinet, it shouldn't be a problem. If I'm on a different DP he needs to check the capacity of the DP. He said it may also mean I lose my fibre for a while as I'm with Talktalk, though I don't quite understand the ins and outs of that and why they couldn't just switch it over as there's capacity in the cabinet.
This would increase my attainable rate from around 52/7 to roughly 70/15 (going by my neighbours speedtest). It would also be a switch from an ECI to a Huawei. Wish me luck!
Post by: burakkucat on July 04, 2016, 09:30:25 PM
Post by: Black Sheep on July 04, 2016, 09:44:22 PM
I can't help but wonder if Clive's involvement was intended to ensure the checker was re-aligned, in that it shows the true Cab you are connected to ??
To expand on a couple of things, a CSC is from the engineering work-force. They carry the next grade up from the rest of the engineers. In my experience, half are good at what they do, half don't deserve the grade. I hope you get the former, obviously.
The DP. If you are on the same DP as your neighbour, you must be going to the same Cab as their circuit is ?? There are only two scenarios that would make this otherwise .............. 1) There are two separate underground feed cables serving the DP, fed from two different Cabs .... 2) Your 'pair' from the DP is connected via an underground 'strap' cable to a totally different feed cable coming from another Cab, to that of your neighbours.
I have never come across either scenarios in my 30yrs at OR, but it doesn't mean it can't happen ??
Should you be relocated to the new Cab, it's more than just a simple 'switch over', the whole virtual build of the circuit would need to be re-done. There is also the downtime involved in erecting and running new cabling from the new DP should the CSC opt for this route, if capacity allows ???
Good luck with whatever happens.
Post by: NewtronStar on July 04, 2016, 10:05:17 PM
This would increase my attainable rate from around 52/7 to roughly 70/15 (going by my neighbours speedtest). It would also be a switch from an ECI to a Huawei. Wish me luck!
I always thought the POTS (PCP) cabinet your connected to was set in stone and any change required would come as a large cost to the end-user
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 02:22:25 AM
Does this scenario make more sense? The guy I spoke to tonight was brilliant, very straight forward, seemed keen to help. I'll be happy whatever comes out of it.
The job was initially passed to him to confirm I'm on the further cabinet, and he initially said he thinks I'm mistaken. but when I told him I can see from the modem I'm on an ECI cabinet and the other cabinet is Huawei, that was enough to convince him. I was actually on the phone to the guy for about half an hour. He picked up on my limited technical knowledge, and he ran with it, going way over my head talking about the DP etc. he had no intention of changing my cabinet I think. I strongly hinted that would be preferred option of mine, that it would give me retransmittion, put me in range of a cabinet for G-Fast, and most important to me it would give me the speeds I was quoted, as it's lower because I was quoted from the nearer cabinet.
Post by: Ronski on July 05, 2016, 06:03:31 AM
Post by: Black Sheep on July 05, 2016, 07:14:06 AM
I always thought the POTS (PCP) cabinet your connected to was set in stone and any change required would come as a large cost to the end-user
A good point from NS. IF the CSC rehashes the circuit to be fed from the Huwaei Cab, not only will you probably have days/week to wait for the new FTTC port to be made active, he/she will also have to move your dial-tone to the new Cab.
For info purposes, this isn't costly at all, just the engineers time involved which would be approximately 1hr or so.
I'm actually looking forward to the outcome of this. I hope the CSC explains the happenings in a manner such as a layman would understand. so you can re-report back here, J0hn ??. If you wouldn't mind that is ?? :) :)
Post by: ktz392837 on July 05, 2016, 08:58:07 AM
Good luck John, you never know they might fix all the properties.Yes please I am on an ECI cab and would prefer a Huawei.
Not annoyed at all that after watching the ECI cab be installed then waiting over 3 years for it to be given power I am stuck with it.
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 01:15:29 PM
A good point from NS. IF the CSC rehashes the circuit to be fed from the Huwaei Cab, not only will you probably have days/week to wait for the new FTTC port to be made active, he/she will also have to move your dial-tone to the new Cab.He spent from about 8am here, and finished about noon. He just spent about half an hour trying to explain it all to me. He had mentioned if he was able to change my cabinet I would have NO internet for a while, possibly no phone. I'd already said I was happy with that. Worth it in my opinion.
For info purposes, this isn't costly at all, just the engineers time involved which would be approximately 1hr or so.
I'm actually looking forward to the outcome of this. I hope the CSC explains the happenings in a manner such as a layman would understand. so you can re-report back here, J0hn ??. If you wouldn't mind that is ?? :) :)
Well, seems you were right Black Sheep, to a point. My new street is a dead straight line, with 73 homes on my side. The ducting runs right up to 73, but as I said earlier it was kind of staggered in a couple of phases. Well OpenReach apparently weren't told that, or whoever put the lines in (according to Stewart the CSC) was having a very blonde day and didn't put in anywhere near enough lines. When Openreach came back to do the last few properties, they fed us down the same ducting in the opposite direction. They have fed our lines up the new ducting to the end of the street, then back down the other side. Standing at my door he explained "You and your neighbours line goes that way (away from both cabinets), everyone else on the nearer cab goes that way. It's madness." Apparently we're on a different DLI, whatever that is. So there's not a single E-side cable spare from the nearer cabinet, or he would have hooked me up to it and had the database updated for my neighbours. He left me my circuit ID as he says that will be updated on the checker before the address checker is updated. He ran some tests on my line for the purposes of giving estimates on the checker, as I'm the only person in my street on that cabinet.
The cabinet I've been connected to is the most populated cabinet on the entire exchange, serving over 900 properties. The nearer cabinet only server around 300. He said they might be back to do some network rearranging, as there's a new development being built nearby. I'm not to hold my breath though. He then went on to talk about boundaries, and rules that exist at the moment that prohibit certain changes. He went on to mention that there's something going through the scottish parliament to try have this changed, again over my head. The guy couldn't have been any nicer really. He spent half the day opening manhole covers in the street trying to follow my line. Said in over 25 years he's never seen such a mess on a new build. He's traced it all the way back to the cabinet, and updated the routing. oh well, still mission accomplished. As I started this I could never switch ISP, and my poor neighbours had 2mb ADSL while I have an attainable of 52mb. They'll be happy when I fill them in.... not. My cabinet is full again, and that's all the line cards filled.
Post by: Ronski on July 05, 2016, 01:32:59 PM
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 01:40:08 PM
Post by: Black Sheep on July 05, 2016, 01:45:02 PM
Again, just to clarify a couple of points ....... DLI = Direct Line In ...... nothing special, it just our way of saying the circuit is underground fed as opposed to overhead.
Regarding the 'boundaries on making changes to network infrastructure' (or words to that effect). As you will have read in my original reply to you, right at the very beginning I mentioned about 'setting a precedent', and sounding nervous about it ??.
We engineers are told in no uncertain terms, we ARE NOT to re-arrange the external network to try and give EU 'A' an improved service, as we are likely then to be confronted by EU 'B', then EU 'C' and so on, to have their own circuits improved.
Broadband is based on legacy infrastructure and the way your circuit was 'fed' before Broadband, will be the way it remains 'fed' after having Broadband activated. We have had instances where engineers have moved an EU's line to poles fed from another County as the EU's premises was on the border. It was this event that was the catalyst to halting such practises.
Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying the info as we are given it. There will always be winners and losers I'm afraid.
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 02:29:38 PM
1) the database can't be updated
2) you must be mistaken, you can't have fibre (lol what)
3) didn't read my email at all, and replied with the default "we are continuously investing in our network, please keep checking fibre may come to your area soon"
and 4) just wait, after 1 year it automatically updates the database (pure lie).
the lovely lady at DSO/Customer resolution assures me they have created a new form for the enquires team to complete when someone raises this issue again. the CEO must be getting fed up with all the emails lol.
random question Black Sheep. I just checked the road works map and OpenReach are doing heavy impact works at my cabinet next week. Hopefully a new cabinet. Can they place a Huawei next to an ECI? all the new cabinets I see being fitted are Huawei, but I'm not sure if that's just because they are BDUK. The original run of cabinets were all ECI.
Post by: Ronski on July 05, 2016, 03:42:22 PM
PS. Am I your favourite forum member for making the suggestion ;D
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 04:20:12 PM
Doesn't seem like much has changed in the last four years regarding these types of problems, hopefully this new form will bring about changes.lol yes! very surprised how quick things moved. also amazed that the checker updated within half an hour of the engineer leaving. going to try upgrade to 80/20 now as I couldn't before. well, I was worried about trying as they would check the capacity of the wrong cabinet, and mine is constantly switching between full/waiters list/accepting order.
PS. Am I your favourite forum member for making the suggestion ;D
will switching from 40/2 to 80/20 on the same ISP trigger a dlm reset?
Post by: gt94sss2 on July 05, 2016, 04:26:46 PM
Post by: Chrysalis on July 05, 2016, 04:40:04 PM
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 04:59:31 PM
The Magenta database lists every commercial cab on my exchange as ECI. every cabinet installed after 2015 is Huawei, but they are all BDUK funded. Is OpenReach still installing ECI cabs?
Post by: Black Sheep on July 05, 2016, 05:24:02 PM
I'm happy with my outcome. I'm probably now a few peoples favourite neighbour lol. Have tried over and over to get the database updated with no success. I've had so many different replies from the general OpenReach enquires email including;
1) the database can't be updated
2) you must be mistaken, you can't have fibre (lol what)
3) didn't read my email at all, and replied with the default "we are continuously investing in our network, please keep checking fibre may come to your area soon"
and 4) just wait, after 1 year it automatically updates the database (pure lie).
the lovely lady at DSO/Customer resolution assures me they have created a new form for the enquires team to complete when someone raises this issue again. the CEO must be getting fed up with all the emails lol.
random question Black Sheep. I just checked the road works map and OpenReach are doing heavy impact works at my cabinet next week. Hopefully a new cabinet. Can they place a Huawei next to an ECI? all the new cabinets I see being fitted are Huawei, but I'm not sure if that's just because they are BDUK. The original run of cabinets were all ECI.
I'm afraid I wouldn't know, J0hn .............. cab installation isn't even on my radar when it comes down to my day-to-day tasks. Sorry. :)
Post by: Black Sheep on July 05, 2016, 05:43:32 PM
Doesn't seem like much has changed in the last four years regarding these types of problems, hopefully this new form will bring about changes.
PS. Am I your favourite forum member for making the suggestion ;D
Regarding 'change' within Openreach.
Since the recent appointment of Clive Selley to CEO, things are changing .......... rapidly and for the better. I've been at BT now waaaay long enough to have heard all the usual sh1t that comes with a new CEO .... how "Exciting" the journey will be, how if we all "Get on board" the EU will have a marvellous "Experience". Sh1t, sh1t and more sh1t.
However, whenever someone at my level had the audacity to say those above were getting it wrong, we were targeted as being bad for the business touting their favourite buzz-word ........... "Negativity".
Well, Mr Selley (Who started at BT 25+yrs ago as an engineer), appears to be listening to us now. Not just the usual lip-service and forget about it ..... in the short space of time he has been in the chair, massive sea-changes have taken place !! Ownership of high repeat-reports by the managers is one of them, they have to go on daily conference calls explaining what is being done and they are getting their ar5es kicked severely if progress isn't being made.
But for me, the very latest change ..... only announced this last week ...... is how we are moving back to team-based measures. Not the micro-managed individual stats that were tearing the company apart by different departments loathe to co-operate as it would harm their 'dashboard' (Stats on a page) as it's called.
The upper echelon have stated just today in a voicemail to all engineers, "We got it wrong, we were micro-managing and productivity biased" (or words to that effect) ............ I have never, ever heard this level of management say this before about something as huge as what this is. I suppose you have to work in the company to understand the impact of it all ??.
So, CEO's come and CEO's go ...... all have a new broom with which to sweep, but I haven't felt as good about a CEO since the days of Ian Vallance. :) :)
Hopefully all good news for you guys.
Post by: Ronski on July 05, 2016, 06:51:00 PM
However, whenever someone at my level had the audacity to say those above were getting it wrong, we were targeted as being bad for the business touting their favourite buzz-word ........... "Negativity".
I work for a small company, but I know the above only too well, I keep my head down below the parapet these days.
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 07:09:23 PM
Yes, it will trigger a DLM reset. However, it doesn't remove banding if that has been applied to a line.i don't understated that at all. my line is technically "banded" at 39994 as part of my product, it's never dropped below that. so... that makes no sense to me at all
edit: I'm not arguing that point. I literally don't understand that scenario.
Post by: Black Sheep on July 05, 2016, 07:13:35 PM
I'm not daft enough not to realise that's how it is with higher management and us. I just hate seeing a tried and tested way of working, gradually going downhill because of changes sake. There's only so many ways you can pour a glass of milk, but industry seems hell-bent these days on doing it faster, cheaper and not looking at the end-game. Hopefully, the moves being put in place at OR will curb this madness ??. :)
Post by: Black Sheep on July 05, 2016, 07:19:14 PM
i don't understated that at all. my line is technically "banded" at 39994 as part of my product, it's never dropped below that. so... that makes no sense to me at all
edit: I'm not arguing that point. I literally don't understand that scenario.
In laymans terms, the 'bit of kit' that controls your connection speed (DLM), will adjust certain parameters on individuals circuits. You could end up with a scenario whereby you are 'banded' between lets say 18-20Mbps due to a line fault condition, whereas in reality, if that condition was repaired, your circuit could achieve between 35-40Mbps ??
There's a mind-set on here that there are different types of DLM reset ............ I personally have only ever seen a DLM reset remove any banding put in place by DLM, however the thinking on here is that the banding will remain if you just change ISP's ??
The good news for you is, you appear to be on a DLM 'Open-profile' which means it is looking at giving you the highest speed achievable. :)
Post by: Chrysalis on July 05, 2016, 07:23:17 PM
were they funded by BDUK though? as all the BDUK cabs appear to be Huawei. I've seen 2 Huawei together, 2 ECI together, but haven't seen a mix from the same PCP.
The Magenta database lists every commercial cab on my exchange as ECI. every cabinet installed after 2015 is Huawei, but they are all BDUK funded. Is OpenReach still installing ECI cabs?
nope I am in a city area, not BDUK cabinets.
No mixed cabinets either, these are PCPs which had no FTTC cabinet before.
Post by: licquorice on July 05, 2016, 07:27:15 PM
In laymans terms, the 'bit of kit' that controls your connection speed (DLM), will adjust certain parameters on individuals circuits. You could end up with a scenario whereby you are 'banded' between lets say 18-20Mbps due to a line fault condition, whereas in reality, if that condition was repaired, your circuit could achieve between 35-40Mbps ??
There's a mind-set on here that there are different types of DLM reset ............ I personally have only ever seen a DLM reset remove any banding put in place by DLM, however the thinking on here is that the banding will remain if you just change ISP's ??
Sorry BS, as far as I'm concerned there are 2 types of DLM reset despite what you say. Switching from 38 to 55 caused a DLM reset on my line but did not remove banding. Fact.
Post by: burakkucat on July 05, 2016, 07:46:59 PM
Switching from 38 to 55 caused a DLM reset on my line but did not remove banding.
Is your circuit still banded or have you finally managed to get that condition removed?
Post by: licquorice on July 05, 2016, 07:54:25 PM
Post by: gt94sss2 on July 05, 2016, 07:56:42 PM
i don't understated that at all. my line is technically "banded" at 39994 as part of my product, it's never dropped below that. so... that makes no sense to me at all
I don't think your line is banded in the sense we mean it - where DLM has artificially limited the speed due to a poor line/disconnections.
Looking at the all user charts on MDWS, an actual sync rate of 39994 looks like a consequence of being on a non G.INP ECI cabinet with a 40MB product that has a INP value of 3.5 and a delay of 8ms - so its a consequence of the framing parameters applied by the DSLAM
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 08:07:48 PM
nope I am in a city area, not BDUK cabinets.is that an assumption, or have you checked that on the likes of Magenta? there's BDUK cabinets in the middle of Edinburgh city centre, and commercial cabinets in the middle of nowhere
Sorry BS, as far as I'm concerned there are 2 types of DLM reset despite what you say. Switching from 38 to 55 caused a DLM reset on my line but did not remove banding. Fact.that's a confusing way to put it. 38 to 52 or 40 to 55 surely, depending on wether your using ISP/OpenReach figures.
so if a line is banded below 40, going up a product on the same speed/standard profile keeps the banding? very confusing
Post by: licquorice on July 05, 2016, 08:20:06 PM
Post by: j0hn on July 05, 2016, 08:54:17 PM