Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: licquorice on February 10, 2023, 11:37:41 AM
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Quick question that I should know the answer to but don't.
Are PPPoA credentials applied on the modem or the router?
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Router.
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Hmm, that's what I thought as PPPoE is a router function, but there seems to be conflicting information.
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Does this help, figure 2-18 half way down:
https://www.ciscopress.com/articles/article.asp?p=363733&seqNum=2
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That seems to show the CPE as a combined modem/ router and that the PPPoA function is on the modem side of the device. I'm not sure routers will have ATM capability on the WAN interface.
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Maybe this wasn't a quick question :)
I think we need to be more specific on what the modem and/or router are you are referring to in your original question, ie model numbers, or is it a generic question.
You could (maybe you still can?) establish a PPPoA link using just a PC and modem, eg the Original BTopenworld Speed Touch USB Stingray modem. The PPPoA credentials would be applied in the Alcatel windows driver. This would give you an IP network connection, without a physical 'router', not sure if that helps you answer your question?
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Its a generic question for my understanding, but it is specifically in relation to a problem on the BT forum in connecting a Unifi USG to an HG612 on ADSL. This article would seem to indicate that the PPPoA session is carried out by the HG612.
I'm not sure if the HG612 was ever used on ADSL in its locked state although it will connect to ADSL at the DSL layer.
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In theory the HG612 could do that as its technically a router. The trick is then configuring everything correctly for the DHCP Spoofing to work so the actual router can get the public IP address. I think there's a post about that on this forum somewhere.
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Yes I'm aware it can be done on the HG612, but not sure if it is modem functionality or router functionality as the HG612 is essentially a single port modem/router that can be used purely as a modem.
If the HG612 was ever used on ADSL, the PPPoA credentials would have been needed to be fixed as they were supplied locked and not user accessible. Hence expecting the PPPoA details to be a router function rather than modem, however, this would necessitate ATM capability on the router WAN interface.
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You misunderstood my point, I was specifically saying that the HG612 has a mode where it handles the PPP connection then forwards the public IP address to a router. https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4109217-huawei-hg612-working-as-a-router.html#Post4109993
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Yes, I know that, but that isn't the point behind my original question.
This post details it https://vessinity.wordpress.com/2019/05/11/configure-bt-echolife-huawai-hg612-as-adsl-modem-only-device/
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Its a generic question for my understanding, but it is specifically in relation to a problem on the BT forum in connecting a Unifi USG to an HG612 on ADSL. This article would seem to indicate that the PPPoA session is carried out by the HG612.
I'm not sure if the HG612 was ever used on ADSL in its locked state although it will connect to ADSL at the DSL layer.
USG :no: :comp:
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Don't shoot the messenger. :lol:
I'm not sure if the HG612 was ever used on ADSL in its locked state although it will connect to ADSL at the DSL layer.
Yes, I'm coming to that conclusion.
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If you want to get technical, PPPoA is actually, PPP over Ethernet over ATM.
The HG612 should do the Ethernet over ATM conversion, as it supported both in it's locked configuration, the ECI were configured as VDSL modems only.
You would still need the Un Suitable Gateway to send PPPoE details though
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Hmm, the link I posted suggests the PPP credentials are entered on the HG612 and then bridged to the router. Are you saying that the router can just enter the PPP credentials as PPPoE and the HG612 will pass that via PPPoA without any config changes from default?
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Yes, a hg612 running stock firmware is capable of syncing with either ADSL or VDSL and bridging PPP details from a router behind it to the ISP.
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Interesting, the plot thickens! Presumably the VPI/VCI parameters are fixed at 38/0 on the HG612
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Yes it was designed this way for a customer to be delivered an ADSL service that migrated to a FTTC service with no replacement of equipment on the migration day.
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Great, thanks for the info.
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Yes, I know that, but that isn't the point behind my original question.
This post details it https://vessinity.wordpress.com/2019/05/11/configure-bt-echolife-huawai-hg612-as-adsl-modem-only-device/
Yup, I got my wires crossed, ironic given what you want is exactly what I used to do on the Netgear DG834 all those years ago.
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@licquorice - a quick question, in regard to your original quick question: Is you quick question answered? :)
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I think so :'(
Not such a quick question after all!!
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@meritez In my experience the HG612 modem could not automatically switch between ADSL and VDSL modes so I believe you are mistaken. I have used the modem on an ADSL line and it required to be unlocked to enable a manual configuration change from PTM Wan mode (VDSL) to ATM to enable it to connect to ADSL. The HG612 modem by default is configured for VDSL2 only and will not sync on an ADSL line.
Perhaps @burakkucat could offer an opinion on this, having worked on various HG612 configuration issues.
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Good to hear from somebody with actual experience of using an HG612 on ADSL.
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Perhaps @burakkucat could offer an opinion on this, having worked on various HG612 configuration issues.
It was so long ago . . . but way back, before asbokid released his first unlocked firmware image, Bald_Eagle1 had sent to "The Cattery" a HG612 from his collection of "spares". As someone had to perform the experiment, asbokid and Bald_Eagle1 jointly decided that the black cat should do the deed. The very first asbokid image was successfully flashed to the H612 and I had my first sight of the GUI . . .
Without changing any of the configuration, the HG612 was briefly connected to the incoming pair, which carried the ADSL2+ based TalkTalk service (LLU), and it failed to achieve synchronism with the exchange based MSAN. The status of the GUI menu Basic >> DSL Modulation type tick boxes was that just the last of the six, "ALL", was selected.
That first asbokid image was just about to be publicly announced when Openreach pushed out a new image. So the second asbokid image was quickly created by the maestro and passed to the black cat for testing. The flash of that image was successful and so it was the second private asbokid image was announced. To the public, that was the first unlocked image.
Following asbokid's announcement, the HG612 at The Cattery was reconfigured as a modem/router for an ADSL2+ based service and it was that configuration which was described on the Huawei HG612 (https://wiki.kitz.co.uk/index.php?title=Huawei_HG612) pages in the Kitz Wiki (https://wiki.kitz.co.uk/index.php?title=Main_Page). It was soon discovered that the HG612 was an underpowered device to act as a modem/router for a VDSL2 based service.
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@licquorice To make your quick question even more confusing you may be interested in some older threads discussing attempts to use the HG612 as a bridged modem on a SKY ADSL PPPoA connection, it doesn't work :no: It cannot convert the router PPPoE connection to PPPoA. The Draytek modems can do this conversion.
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,27110.msg454944.html#msg454944 (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,27110.msg454944.html#msg454944)
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19743.0.html (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19743.0.html)
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Thanks for that. I think the definitive conclusion is that the HG612 can't be used as a modem only in conjunction with a router with only PPPoE capability on its WAN interface.
I guess the broader answer to my generic question is that PPPoA can be either a modem function, or with ATM capability, a router function.
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That's surprising.
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@licquorice You've lost me there, is that what you really meant to write. There must be thousands of HG612 modems running on VDSL2 lines connected to a router via PPPoE. Possibly a few on ADSL as well, as most services will connect using PPPoE or PPPoA, Sky ADSL is PPPoA only.
@Alex Atkin It surprised me as well because it is wrong, I'm guessing it's a typo. ???
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I meant on ADSL lines with PPPoA, not VDSL
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@licqourice OK You didn't actually specify that in your post so causing surprise to readers. ;D
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I did, but is way back in message 6. I probably should have worded my original post better and specified it in the context of ADSL.
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Without changing any of the configuration, the HG612 was briefly connected to the incoming pair, which carried the ADSL2+ based TalkTalk service (LLU), and it failed to achieve synchronism with the exchange based MSAN. The status of the GUI menu Basic >> DSL Modulation type tick boxes was that just the last of the six, "ALL", was selected.
Adding some further information to the above, as a result of me thinking whilst inspecting the insides of my eye-lids. From that very first experiment with the initial, newly unlocked, HG612 --
- The lack of synchronism that I noted was nothing more than me not allowing sufficient time for the MSAN and HG612 to work through all the xDSL options available.
- The Basic >> ATM Connection menu showed a null entry.
- The Basic >> PTM Connection menu showed the required information for a VDSL2 based service.
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@burakkucat I think that evidence would support my statement that the HG612 will not support an ATM Wan connection without manual configuration.
@meritez Perhaps you are remembering BT/Plusnet modem/routers, some of which would switch between ADSL and VDSL2 automatically, the HG612 could not do this.
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@burakkucat I think that evidence would support my statement that the HG612 will not support an ATM Wan connection without manual configuration.
I agree. :)
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@RealAleMadrid,
I've never used a BT/Plusnet router.
Maybe I've never used a locked hg612.
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The HG612 definitely doesn't sync to ADSL when in default locked state.
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Ah yes, I completely missed that it was locked. Naturally as they were pre-configured for VDSL, they wont be able to handle ATM without being reconfigured.
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@meritez So how have you dreamt up your incorrect ideas in posts #15 and #17?
Locked or unlocked the HG612 will not switch between PTM and ATM mode without manual re-configuration.
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@meritez So how have you dreamt up your incorrect ideas in posts #15 and #17?
Locked or unlocked the HG612 will not switch between PTM and ATM mode without manual re-configuration.
With regards to post 17
Yes it was designed this way for a customer to be delivered an ADSL service that migrated to a FTTC service with no replacement of equipment on the migration day.
The HG612 was never provided on ADSL for anyone to upgrade to FTTC.
Both the Openreach FTTC modems were only ever provided by Openreach engineers during a managed VDSL2 install.
I don't think providers ever sent them out. (Edit: some did eventually, like AAISP, but only when self install launched later on and only for VDSL2 circuits).
When self install became a thing providers had to provide their own modem or hub.
They were only used on ADSL by anyone who purchased 1 and reconfigured it or downgraded from FTTC and reconfigured it.
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Heh, when the chap from OR came recently to commission my second AAISP circuit he mused about my modems and wondered where my router was. It's upstairs mate... He couldn't fathom why I didn't just have some all-in-one box as the HG612's are so old.
I think my first original one was indeed done with a managed OR install way back in 2012.
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Hi all,
I haven't used an HG612, but I have some thoughts. I started broadband with a Zyxel Prestige 630-C1 ADSL device that had DSL on one-side and USB on the other, and it did PPPoA.
Looking at the Cisco figure attached from https://www.ciscopress.com/articles/article.asp?p=363733&seqNum=2 and thinking about the OSI-Reference Model, I think that PPPoE and PPPoA are all layer 2 or layer 2.5 protocols and so more modem like than router like. Routing happens at OSI-RM layer 3 or IP layer in TCP/IP.
The Cisco figure shows how PPPoE could be on a PC, but nowadays we have more features all bundled in the CPE as a home router/gateway, which is doing all the modem & router functions in one box with Ethernet and WiFi on it too.
So much functionality has moved into a single box CPE now that it can get hard to separate functions out.
I got involved in some ETSI technical specifications in the past, and the committee agreed that it was much easier to make the end user devices talk AT & PPP on a serial line when they needed to do data communications (so the device behaved like a modem) than to try to invent a new protocol for bringing up the communications. As PPP had so many supported implementations even in the late 1990s :)
Cheers,
Tony
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most services will connect using PPPoE or PPPoA, Sky ADSL is PPPoA only.
Yeah I remember that being discussed at the time when I switched to separate devices. I think the theory was PPPoA is slightly more efficient as its tweaked specifically to ATM packet sizes? Although I don't think I could ever measure a notable difference, likely as the benefit of using your own router greatly outweighed any efficiency difference.
At the time it was when bittorrent came out and consumer DSL routers just weren't up to handling so many concurrent connections.