Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: edward on March 16, 2013, 05:50:01 PM
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Had Infinity installed a few days ago, and the Openreach engineer left in place an ADSLNation filter on the first NTE5 where the line enters the house. There is a phone extension wired off this filter, and the unfiltered route from it goes to another room and to another NTE5 which is where the ADSL modem/router were, and where the new Infinity faceplate and modem have been fitted.
This installation was fine for ADSL, what about Infinity though?
It's convenient that it was done this way, though the house is on a long route (800m-900m), from the CAB, and I'm now wondering if this older (though good quality), ADSL filter on the first NTE5 is going to drag down the signal quality in any meaningful way? From reading posts on here I know its not the recommended way, though would it likely degrade the signal enough to matter, or is the only way to answer that to remove it?
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Hello Edward and welcome to the Kitz fora.
Was it a true Openreach engineer who performed the installation? Or was it a sub-contractor (Kelly Communications or M J Quinn) who was working for Openreach?
Any installation that has two NTPs connected across the pair is a defective installation. Are you absolutely sure that it is a second NTE5/A in the 'other room'?
Could you please photograph the relevant sockets and then make the images available for viewing? Having sight of them will allow us to advise you appropriately.
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Perhaps BS could confirm if it is a mandatory change to install the new SSFP on a VDSL Installation ?
If that had been done there are a pair of terminals specifically included for a VDSL modem extension.
If a line is under-performing, I prefer to install the Openreach modem directly beside the SSFP master socket and then run a longer ethernet cable to a convenient point for the router.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Thank you for the welcome and advice.
The line comes into the house through the wall into the first NTE5 with the ADSLNation filtered faceplate, see first pic.
The unfiltered feed from that goes to another room where the second NTE5 was, and now looks like this, see pic 2 The NTE5 which was here he removed and replaced it with what you can see in pic2. You are right to ask, I don't know what this is called.
The installation was done by an OR engineer, though he was still training and this was his first job unsupervised, his 'buddy' was en-route from another city and this being the first job of the day he ended up doing it unsupervised.
EDIT: Just to say I only believe he was an OR engineer, he wore an OR jacket, and talked as if he were employed, though thinking back he didn't actually say so, in which case I have to say I'm not 100% sure now.
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Hi Edward,
As BKK has said your installation is definitely defective.
I hope I can convince you of the significant improvement in some cases in the following example after Walter's wheelbarrow has been in attendance.
I have had similar results on another three installations, but I won't bore you with the required pantomime with "Our proud guardians".
BEFORE WITH TWO NTE5 SKTS IN SERIES, BOTH WITH RING WIRES ATTACHED.
CORRECT SSFP FILTER FITTED TO 2ND SKT WITH MODEM
Max: Upstream rate = 7772 Kbps, Downstream rate = 18800 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 2000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 9999 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 7772 kbps 18800 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 6.1 dBm 10.6 dBm
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 5.2 51.9 66.2 N/A 22.4 62.7 0.1
Signal Attenuation(dB): 5.2 51.7 N/A N/A 22.4 62.7 N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 17.8 18.7 N/A N/A 9.1 9.2 N/A
TX Power(dBm): -4.6 5.8 N/A N/A 10.4 -2.3 N/A
AFTER WITH SSFP & MODEM CORRECTLY ON 1ST SKT.
(ROUTER CONNECTED WITH LONG ETHERNET CABLE.)
Max: Upstream rate = 7846 Kbps, Downstream rate = 28672 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 7893 Kbps, Downstream rate = 26068 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195) (1984,2771)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959) (2792,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (880,1195)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1959)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 7846 kbps 28672 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: 6.4 dBm 11.4 dBm
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 5.2 50.7 65.3 N/A 22.2 62.1 0.1
Signal Attenuation(dB): 5.2 50.5 N/A N/A 22.2 62.1 N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 6.0 6.0 N/A N/A 4.8 3.3 N/A
TX Power(dBm): -3.6 6.0 N/A N/A 11.2 2.1 N/A
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Does the '1st socket' (The one with the ADSL Nation frontplate) still have a dial tone ??
A couple of scenario's could have taken place, whereby the engineer has crimped the 'feed' through at the back of the 1st socket, thus making the 2nd socket the actual 'Master'.
If the 1st socket still has dial tone, he may have 'backfed' the DT down a spare pair of wires within the cable ??
The key here is, did you notice whether he opened the 1st socket ??
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We really now need Edward to remove the screws holding the ADSLNation centralised filter to the first NTE5/A across the pair and photograph what is currently connected to the IDCs, along with anything visible 'through the hole' in the lower front of the NTE5/A.
I have a good idea how the premises were wired before the Beattie Infinity installation took place. The incoming service cable is terminated at the flush-fitted NTE5/A. The ADSLNation centralised filter was fitted and the telephone sockets were run from the relevant IDCs. From the unfiltered pair of IDCs, a separated cable was run to the 'other room' where a surface mounted RJ45 or RJ11 socket was fitted. The ADSL2+ modem/router was connected via that socket and the LAN connections were made via the Cat5e supplied sockets.
If we look closely at the second photograph, we see that post-Infinity installation a surface mount backing box has been fitted to the original surface mount backing box which held the original RJ45 or RJ11 socket. To the latter backing box, another NTE5/A has been fitted and that is being supplied by the unfiltered pair originating from the ADSLNation centralised filter. Finally a SSFP has been fitted to the second NTE5/A to provide the xDSL feed to the active CPE (the VDSL2 modem).
I suspect that as the installer was a new Openreach recruit / trainee, who did not have his mentor / coach in attendance, the circuit has been left as supposed, above. :-X
My feeling is that the ADSLNation centralised filter should have been removed, the SSFP fitted in its place and the data extension cable run to the 'other room', making use of the pre-existing RJ45 or RJ11 socket. :)
However, until we can see 'what's what', everything is currently speculative. :-\
Of course if Edward either lives in Surrey or near BSE in Suffolk, then Walter & his 'wheelbarrow' or b*cat & his 'what-nots' could attend to correct this (mis-)installation. ;)
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First off thank you for the most informative and comprehensive replies. I'll try to answer your questions.
A bit of background. When we moved in the previous owners had two phone lines, one terminated where the ADSLNAtion is now, and the other line in the study, where Infinity is now installed. After we moved in we wanted just one line, BT came to remove some ISDN socket (or something, I can't remember what exactly), that was on the second line in the studu. The upshot was we ended up with one phone line and two NTE5 sockets that were both live, so were connected in parallel across the line.
Fast forward to ADSL. It was self install ADSL, the modem was put in the second NTE5 location in the study. The line was a long distance from the exchange and picked up a lot of RF interference at night, so I fitted the ADSLNation face plate to the first NTE5, and fed the second NTE5 with the unfiltered output, and at the same time fed the one RJ11 phone socket, in the lounge from the filtered output. It did away with dangly filters and the blurb said it was a better filter for longer lines.
Fast forward to Infinity, the engineer didn't look at the ADSLNation faceplate, he was shown the study where the ADSL modem was was, saw it was plugged into a 'BT logo' NTE5 and without looking anywhere else fitted it as you can see in the pic.
And here we are.
The ADSLNation is still live, it feeds the one phone socket in the lounge as well as the study, I've added pic3 to show its location better, it would be so inconvenient to have the Infinity socket there, and I don't think Mrs Edward would allow a dangly wire from it, to round the corner somehow into the lounge.
I think the best solution is to remove first NTE5, crimp the incoming to the cable that goes up to feed the Infinity socket where it is in the study, use a spare pair in that cable (3 pairs in it), to return the filtered output back down to the hallway and crimp to the wires that feed the phone socket in the lounge. How does that sound? All can be done in the recessed socket where ADSLNation is now, then put a blank cover on it.
You asked for a pic behind the ADSLNation, I can't just now, it would cut the phone and Internet off, but I can assure you it is just as described above. I've also added a pic of the NTE5 removed from the study to make way for the Infinity faceplate.
It's an amazing offer to pop round with the barrow, sadly I'm in Leicestershire, or pints would have been on me. I'm so reluctant to bring this to the attention of BT, and would much rather be in control of what happens...if you are passing by this way any time soon, I'll gladly take you and whoever is with you out for lunch, we are in the heart of the country some very nice places to visit :)
Hope that all makes sense.
PS Edited to add some line stats.
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Aha, that's a more comprehensive outline Ed.
My advice ? Ring your ISP, explain exactly what's happened and that you want an OR re-visit asap. Messing with the monopolised wiring, although simple, is not really the best course of action.
This is not just aimed at your goodself, but anybody reading the thread. I've had one EU who removed the Master Socket on a DLI (Direct Line In). These feeds were lain in the ground and the houses built on top the said cables, circa 1960/70's.
Anyhows, after removing the Master Socket, he accidentally snapped one of the wires right at the neck of the incoming feed. There was no way of getting any purchase to crimp and extend the wire, so we had to then feed his premises by an alternative method. A lot of cash involved.
The chances of that happening to you Ed, are probably in the very low percentages, but if you want a 100% guarantee of no potential charges, ring your ISP. You have a rock solid case. :)
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Thanks, that is the best advise, its appreciated. Hopefully on the revisit I'll get an experienced engineer who can see how to put it right.
Your help and insight here is invaluable.
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I shall heartily endorse Black Sheep's advice, Edward, because:
- He is our very own serving Openreach technician (with considerable knowledge to share).
- It is a defective installation, which Openreach will correct.
Your suggestion of removing the first NTE5/A, crimping various pairs as appropriate and adding a blanking plate would have been my suggestion. ;)
I suspect that an Eagle (type Bald) analysis of how your line is currently performing will soon be forthcoming.
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Hi Edward,
I too believe the venerable BS has suggested the optimum solution.
Having been caught out twice in four such incidents might I also suggest you enquire of the departing OR engineer whether the DLM will be reset automatically or is a reminder a prudent request ? Perhaps BS could confirm the precise terminology his colleague would expect ?
Kind regards,
Walter
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Aw shucks, you guys ..... :blush:
A good point raised by Walter, about having the DLM reset after remedial work is completed. As regards the correct terminology ?? I would word it pretty much as that, or maybe 'A circuit reset' ??
It's a flip of a coin whether this will be understood, as Ed may end up with another noobie ?? Blame the training, not the individual. ;) ;D
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I'm taking everything in you are all saying, the only concern is who will be doing the work on the revisit, I'll just have to take that as it comes.
Another question, I read that voice and data shouldn't be combined in the same cable, (although it is already combined pre filter?), so I'm thinking it would be better for me to run another cable between the two locations for the return voice rather than use a spare pair in the existing cable. I can do this before the revisit, and take time to have it routed where we want (ran carefully outside it could be almost unnoticeable), rather than have it done for us on the day, if that's what the engineer decides has to be done.
Regarding a line reset, I was wondering that, and suppose it will depend how much changes when this is put right. I'm surprised though, on Infinity day + 6, to still be getting almost the same speed when tested (29.55/5.5 and now 28.31/5.5). I'm not going to say anything else yet, as I'm not tempting fate.
I know you are really advising me to do this through the ISP, is paying a local independent Telecom Engineer such a bad thing? The benefit being I stay more in control of what happens, its not such a difficult job, straightforward for a 'proper qualified experienced engineer', and I don't mind if the cost is reasonable. I know there is a risk of getting a 'cowboy', though assuming I find a 'good guy' I'd rather. The downside being if it makes a big improvement a line reset would be harder to initiate.
Being retired does give you loads of time to think about things!
(Edited for spelling)
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I have had one sudden thought. As Edward has clearly stated, we are talking about a new Infinity installation. As that fact sinks into the overworked grey-matter, we realise that the ISP/CP in question is, thus, Beattie Retail herself! :P Now the 'Oh dear' moment . . . We all know how difficult it is to attempt to communicate with that Communication Provider's CS Department (Beattie India) with regards to anything remotely technical and not covered by their scripts. :-X
Clearly we do not advocate DIY work but I suspect that a certain number of us would 'right the wrongs' ourselves purely due to the almost impossible task of having a correct work request being booked (with Openreach) via Beattie Retail. :no: I will therefore make a 'midway' suggestion. Take a look in the classified advertisements section of your local paper for a retired Openreach/British Telecommunications/Post Office Telecommunications/General Post Office Telecommunications Engineer who offers his services to the public. Employ a 'good' one and you will have a far better job done than with a current Openreach new recruit / trainee. (Just as Black Sheep has previously stated, that is not a criticism of the new recruits / trainees but of the process.) :)
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This is what I'm thinking. I've already made a couple of inquiries along the lines you've suggested. Even if the effect on the line is minimal, from a cosmetic point of view I'd like it done now.
Thanks for all the replies and advice, not much more to be said, I'll let you know in due course what happened.
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@ Edward,
We really do have a quandary here as I have already indirectly testified. When my wheelbarrow happens to stop adjacent to an enquirer's house I often find that the EU is quite bemused. Sometimes it is suggested that I call after reviewing the achieved throughput speed from the BT Speed tester or another one. Having walked the patch quite extensively now, I am aware of the expected speeds whereas the EU usually doesn't have a clue nor does (s)he have a veritable encyclopaedia of performance statistics.
A prime example, which caused much mutterings of veiled aspersions towards the hapless subcontract installation engineers, happened when an EU brightly said that his speed was so much faster than it was before (it was 1.98 Mbps) at 14.52 Mbps even though it started at 19.12 Mbps but was estimated at 22.6 Mbps. Once I had entry it was quite obvious that all was not well. I adjusted the internal (customer-side only wiring) and was able to observe a significant improvement in the Max rate but the achieved rate remained stuck at 14.52. I heaved a great sigh of relief when told that the ISP was Zen internet. There was no question that an Openreach engineer visit would be arranged ASAP. Upon the arrival of the O/R engineer, his JDSU produced very similar results to those I had observed; this perplexed him as he had not seen this anomaly before. A call was made and by magic the DLM was reset resulting in a speed of 26.78 Mbps - well above the VDSL estimator figure.
Sorry for the diversion but back to your problem. If you get a retired engineer who does a fantastic job, you will almost certainly have a very frustrating experience with India unless and until you can convince the operative to refer the matter to a level two engineer. Thankfully I've only had one instance of a BT supplied service. On that occasion I had just completed exactly the same exercise next door resulting in a new Maximum throughput of around 42 Mbps, yet this one was was stuck at a speed of 19.99 Mbps. The Level two engineer would not accept that a cap had been applied as BT never cap their services, but he did admit that there seemed to be a restriction. Eureka after much meandering !!! The O/R engineer arrived and again "they all lived happily ever-after !
In your case you can state that you have taken advice from many contributors on the fantastic Kitz web site (including the venerable one !) who all state that you have a sub-standard installation requiring remedial action by an expert O/R engineer. Once you have "caught your fish" it should then be relatively easy to remind him to RESET the DLM after he has corrected the wiring anomaly.
RE your own internal wiring, which you are at liberty to adjust as you wish, I suggest it would be prudent to separate any voice component from the incoming VDSL signal. However as I always want to achieve the absolute maximum I would still recommend installing the modem directly into the real master socket's SSFP and running an external ethernet cable to your required computing area with the router.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Wise words indeed, from Walter. :)
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It was a quandary, the only one to decide how to resolve it being me, and one I can give an update to now.
I wasn't going to chance an OR engineer visit again, so I found an independent telecoms engineer. I was very lucky and found the type of 'old school time served clever and skilled sort who was clued up and knew what he doing' engineer. Emailed him a link to this thread, then rang and talked on the phone, agreed between us what to do, and made an appointment, which was for this morning.
He was just the kind of engineer you want, showed me pics on his phone of some of the wiring horrors he's been called out to resolve, so by comparison my job was simple. The redundant NTE5 and filters now gone, nicely crimped, and blanked off.
After reconnecting the max attainable rate went up by approx. 1.5Mb/s (35248-36212) and actual connected line rate from 29809 to 31381, the acid test (download speedtest), went up from 28.32 to 29.95 Mb/s. This latest result was the same figure we got when the OR engineer did tests during the installation, and it had just dropped a little since then, and today its gone back up and the only time since then that I've seen at that rate again. Regardless of that it's neater and now wired as it should be.
I think they are very good results anyway for 800-900 meters from the cab, and having had Infinity installed for going on for 3 weeks now I'm hoping that's a 'stable' result.
I've attached two sets of graphs, one taken yesterday, and one today after the rewiring. The one from yesterday seems to be missing a group of tones, I'm wondering if that would be due dropping them over the time the modem was up, around 15 days or more, when the line quality at some point wasn't so good, maybe night time interference?
Thanks for all the tips and advice, glad I got the work done.
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Yay. Result! :thumbs:
I think it would be best to wait for Feathers to swoop down and comment upon your rather peculiar bit loading graph, recorded yesterday. I certainly have never seen such an absence before . . . :-\
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I've attached two sets of graphs, one taken yesterday, and one today after the rewiring. The one from yesterday seems to be missing a group of tones, I'm wondering if that would be due dropping them over the time the modem was up, around 15 days or more, when the line quality at some point wasn't so good, maybe night time interference?
I have seen that happen once or twice, using both the scripted and program versions.
Re-running the script/program a few seconds later usually provides more valid data.
I can only assume it is due to trying to harvest the data just at the same time as the modem is updating its own logs.
When watching the GUI, it seems to update every 10 seconds.
Maybe you just caught it at the 'wrong' time?
The connection now also looks quiter & has a better SNRN since the wiring work.
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I see, more of little glitch in the program rather than actual line state. Thanks, if I get a reading like that again I'll redo it.
Again thanks for the info and guidance, all I got on the 'official BT forum' was..."if it aint broke, don't fix it" ha ha!