Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: Sajuuk on September 08, 2016, 06:43:20 PM
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Hi there, first post.
I am moving to VDSL2 FTTC soon but for obvious reasons, I will be using a separate HG612 modem, purely to keep the connection rock stable (that's because I plan to do livestreaming to an online video service and I can't exactly have the connection dropping out when I livestream).
I cannot find any instructions on how to configure the Billion BiPAC 8800NL to operate as only a router. I am presuming that I don't need to provide any WAN Service information and must configure the eWAN port to act as the internet port, but I cannot find how to do that.
(For obvious reasons, I will be unlocking the said HG612 to see all the stats: anyone know if the Billion in router only mode will show stats in its web interface by getting it from the hg612?)
Any advice would be much appreciated.
- Sajuuk
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RTFM ;D
http://www.billion.uk.com/esupport/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/356/107/bipac-8800nl-user-manual (http://www.billion.uk.com/esupport/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/356/107/bipac-8800nl-user-manual)
Page 110-112
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I'm not sure having a separate modem is actually going to add any useful extra stability in this case - if something happens to the router but not the modem, it would still interrupt whatever you're doing on the Internet at the time.
But then what's the point of buying a 8800NL if you're not going to use its internal VDSL2 modem? I didn't think it had particularly good wifi and it has only got one gigabit Ethernet port, the rest being 100Mb.
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RTFM
I actually did, but couldn't find the specific section (Billion is a non-UK company, so a lot of the sentence structure can be confusing as a result). Thanks for the page numbers, I will look there.
But then what's the point of buying a 8800NL if you're not going to use its internal VDSL2 modem?
"Buying it"? I already have one. If I was buying one, I would have indicated as such in my post ;)
As to the point you are making, the reason for having the modem and router separate is because there are plenty of cases with routers also acting as modems being very unstable and disconnecting much more than is necessary, invoking the DLM. The fact that the modem is separate means that if I disconnect or replace the router in any way, it will not have any effect on the broadband connection (I don't want FTTC DLM to invoke itself on my connection and keep me in a banded profile forever), and a rock-solid stable connection is very important to me due to my intended use of fibre broadband.
Whereas if I used a router/modem combined, taking out the router knocks the broadband out, which may not be suitable in my case (if I had to take the router out, I can still hotwire my computer directly to the modem and continue to have at least one device on the internet).
I didn't think it had particularly good wifi
Wifi is pretty good for me but I'm only used to plain ADSL1/ADSL2 services. Most devices are ethernet connected, the few that are via wifi have no real issues. Even if they won't max out a 80/20 profiled connection (as the router supports only 2.4GHz), the speed increase is more than enough. And those devices that need to be maxing it out will either be directed connected to the router or will be connected to powerline adapters.
and it has only got one gigabit Ethernet port, the rest being 100Mb.
Not too fussed about that really, don't transfer much (if anything) over the internal network, other than monthly backups to a local drive. I have an ethernet switch that extends the number of ethernet ports in any case.
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And how would the forever banded connection not be stable?
I can't exactly have the connection dropping out when I livestream.
So you put two boxes between your computer and the Internet instead of one, and if one or other fails, it'll interrupt your connection. I'm not convinced that's going to make it more stable.
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And how would the forever banded connection not be stable?
Because DLM would take forever to relent on a banded profile? I'd rather like to avoid any banded profiles from DLM, given I'm going to be paying for the top tier connection for a reason...
So you put two boxes between your computer and the Internet instead of one, and if one or other fails, it'll interrupt your connection. I'm not convinced that's going to make it more stable.
The entire point of me using a separate Openreach HG612 modem is so that the connection will remain alive, regardless of the status of the middle-man router.
My relative has 80/20 fibre broadband and we were given a smart hub 6 for it, but we chose not to use it and keep with an old Hub 4 with Openreach modem, purely for stability reasons, as well as making sure that, should the router fail, it will be easy to purchase a replacement without affecting the broadband aspect in any way. The SH6 just sits in its box and is there only as a backup or if we needed a broadband engineer to visit to fix a problem (there are reports of Openreach engineers taking back the separate modem, but whether this still happens is unknown to me).
There are particular reasons for me using the separate modem. Just because the router I have includes a modem for VDSL2 does not necessarily mean I am required to use it ;)
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Yes I am well aware of all that, I just don't think any of it achieves your originally stated purpose of avoiding being interrupted while livestreaming.
The DLM taking forever the relent sounds pretty stable to me. Stable as in constant, unchanging, staying the same.
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Yes I am well aware of all that, I just don't think any of it achieves your originally stated purpose of avoiding being interrupted while livestreaming.
The DLM taking forever the relent sounds pretty stable to me. Stable as in constant, unchanging, staying the same.
I think you are missing the point. The reason for having the openreach modem is because it guarantees the line will be stable. A lot of people are recommended to use the openreach modem because of that specific reason: the vast majority of fibre users who were provided with the separate modem (back when that was a thing) probably don't report any issues because they've never had a problem.
Additionally, the whole point of achieving a stable connection is so that DLM does not act on my connection in a negative manner with banded profiles and higher SNR margins. If I get banded, I will never get the speed that I pay my ISP for, because DLM will not give back the speed freely, unless I ask for an engineer visit.
I got the answer I was looking for, from the first reply. I don't feel any reason to continue needing to explain why I'm choosing to use a separate modem, I've explained my reasoning as to why. I do not want DLM acting on my line for anything other than applying G.INP protection, I do not want it acting on my line to increase my SNR and band my connection to a low speed.
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I'd love to know how a modem guarantees a stable line, pretty damn clever if it can.
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I'd love to know how a modem guarantees a stable line, pretty damn clever if it can.
You of all people should know why people use the hg612, otherwise why would it be suggested so often as a means to stabilise a connection? ;)
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The reason for having the openreach modem is because it guarantees the line will be stable.
That's not really true. The Openreach Modem was provided as part of a managed installation, which also included having an Openreach engineer (or subcontractor) if necessary, installing a modern master socket, and most importantly, fitting a centralised filter. And of course some people got given an ECI modem rather than a Huawei HG612.
The current self-installs have people plugging in their new VDSL2 modem+router using plug-in dangly filters, so if they have more than one phone socket, their internal phone wiring will very likely be an issue.
It was not the Openreach Modem itself that somehow made them not have any issues, it was the fitting of the centralised filter done as part of the managed installation.
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You of all people should know why people use the hg612, otherwise why would it be suggested so often as a means to stabilise a connection? ;)
I don't recall ever making such a claim, and I certainly wouldn't use the term Guarantees
I guess you no longer have your super powers ;)
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I don't recall ever making such a claim, and I certainly wouldn't use the term Guarantees
I guess you no longer have your super powers ;)
I never said you did ;)
Maybe guarantees was the wrong word, but from all I've heard about the hg612 from elsewhere, it's commonly recommended to aid in connection stability. Hence why I plan on using it. This is also important because the house I'm going to be moving to is a pretty old house and I could not find the master socket anywhere at all (one socket looked like a master, but none of the phone plugs were filtered), so the internal wiring is probably a mess and could potentially cause problems with the broadband and I'm hoping the hg612 will aid in minimising disruption from that aspect (though it shouldn't, since we'll be getting a proper filtered faceplate sorted out by an engineer).
@ejs: We won't be going the route of a self-install for VDSL2 broadband. We'll be insisting on an engineer visit to ensure there is a proper master socket in the house (our relative got an engineer visit to change the master socket and make sure the service was provided as intended (we didn't have to pay the £130 call out, but just £50 for an engineer install, which was better than self-install (especially since the SH6 didn't come with a single filter and all the old filters were pretty old)).
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I think getting a HG612 is often recommended as a cheap way to avoid problems that were due to say the VDSL2 chipset/firmware in the BT HomeHub 5A, or issues with the Asus VDSL2 devices, and getting a HG612 would typically be cheaper than buying a new integrated VDSL2 modem+router. But I don't think there's anything particularly special about the HG612's VDSL2 performance itself. I think some people have found they get slightly better performance than the HG612 from the newer Broadcom VDSL2 chipsets in some of the Billion or Zyxel devices.
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Based on on my line and comments by a few pothers, the HG612 seems best for lower errors on lines that get some SES most days. It does sync a bit lower in speed but if it keeps a line away from interleaving that can more than offset the slightly lower sync.
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But I don't think there's anything particularly special about the HG612's VDSL2 performance itself. I think some people have found they get slightly better performance than the HG612 from the newer Broadcom VDSL2 chipsets in some of the Billion or Zyxel devices.
It does sync a bit lower in speed but if it keeps a line away from interleaving that can more than offset the slightly lower sync.
Sync speed won't be an issue, I will be within metres of the cabinet so will get maximum sync speeds (unlikely there will be many customers on that service, because most people in my area don't tend to care for fast broadband, most would be fine with an 17mbps ADSL2+ service and not bother with fibre lol).
The main reason is to prevent any possible interleaving or banded profiles from being applied by DLM, because I prefer a fastpath connection than interleaving, particular because I need low ping.
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Being a recent user of an 8800NL and also used the HG612 for most of my 3 year VDSL line the 8800NL as a modem is way better than the HG612 by 4.5Mbps.
I would not use the HG612 as a Modem and then use the 8800NL as router the BCM 63168 in the 8800NL is far superior than the BCM 6368 inside the HG612.
I would use the 8800NL as the Modem and then use a router that has 2.4/5.0 GHz wireless as for Gigabit Ethernet unless you have 10 devices connected to a home server then it just overkill most old devices won't go above 100Mbps one Gigabit port is more than enough for most users
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I have a Billion router that I use with the BT-supplied FTTC modem, wired Ethernet joining the two.
advantages of that configuration include...
1) The FTTC modem is in it's optimum location beside the master socket which, usually and for me, is on an outside wall.
2) The Wifi AP is in optimum location, centrally in the building and at raised elevation.
These advantages do not affect sync speed or error rates. I would expect there to be bo difference whatsoever vs a combined modem/router located by the master socket.
I don't remember exactly what was involved in getting my billion 7800 DXL (iirc) to work with FTTC. I do remember I was entirely confident that having researched the issue, and set it all up it in advance, it would 'just work' on the big day when I switched from adsl. In fact, it didn't 'just work' . But overcoming my embarrassment, a restart and allowing the wizard to set it up for me worked perfectly. ;)