Kitz Forum
Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: tiffy on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 PM
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As a result of "parkdale's" post here,
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,27077.msg454445.html#msg454445
and not wishing to hijack "spudgun's" original topic further have spent some time researching smart heating control systems.
Obviously, the current and likely ongoing high energy prices are a driving factor in this project.
The Honeywell Evohome system as suggested by "parkdale" certainly looks excellent but initial outlay would be substantial.
Looked at the Tado Smart home system which would be a slightly cheaper outlay for my oil fired system.
Gets mixed reviews (as per all products) with main reservations being:
Hub connectivity issues, to smart devices and the cloud.
Smart components battery life.
Having to pay a monthly/yearly subscription for some of the more advanced system features.
Now considering the Drayton Wiser smart home system:
Outlay would work out about half of the cost of the Honeywell, Tado systems for a comparable installation.
On the whole gets excellent reviews and praise for their UK based support.
There are lots of excellent reviews available on all of these systems, wondering if any other forum OP's have any personal experience of any of the systems (or others) in question?
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I did a DIY upgrade of my existing Honeywell thermostat to make it a smart thermostat.
https://notenoughtech.com/home-automation/nest-your-old-thermostat-under-5/
Cost about £6
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@j0hn:
Yes, interesting little project and very cost effective.
I'am a big fan of node-RED and use it extensively all be it with Shelly rather than Sonoff devices on my RPi-3B+ MQTT broker.
However, with regard to CH/HW smart control, upgrading (or replacing) a simple room stat to "smart" will only offer remote access/control capabilities, from a temperature control aspect it still senses temperature at that point and starts/stops the complete system on that basis, all other areas will simply follow that temperature profile unless individual TRV's (thermostatic radiator valves) are fitted for each respective area or zone MOV's are fitted.
My oil fired CH/HW system is the very common "S Plan" system, ie., 2 control MOV's, CH & HW and a single hall stat, as such without extensive piping modification and adding additional MOV's I can never achieve zonal control, addition of smart TRV's and associated smart control components is by far the cheapest, least intrusive and most flexible method to achieve full zonal control.
Edit: Typo correction.
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I've had a Drayton Wiser system installed for a while now (maybe 3 years) though it is a VERY simple setup. Did it all myself.
It replaced an older Drayton Tempus 7 system which in turn replaced a mechanical clock system built in to our gas boiler.
Very simple to do, though IIRC I did need a new mounting plate as the older Drayton version was subtly incompatible on physical mounting, the wiring was exactly the same.
We only have one (wireless) thermostat, usually now in the lounge, replacing a wired Honeywell wall thermostat in the hall. Much better location. :thumbs:
So it controls/schedules hot water (old-school gas boiler with gravity/convection circuit) and central heating (pumped of course).
There is a thermostat on the hot water tank but that's been there for ages and the Wiser isn't aware of it, it's effectively part of the boiler hot water controls.
No radiator thermostats or any other extras.
The manual says very clearly it's NOT suitable for such old "gravity" systems, that's hogwash. I even asked Wiser directly and got the same answer.
The Tempus 7 system had a jumper that you set to ensure the water was always switched on when the heating came on, the Wiser has no such option.
So I just programmed it to ensure that the central heating time periods were always within a hot water time period.
In fact I've subsequently found than when you override "out of hours" and turn on the heating the boiler fires up anyway, even though according to the manual it shouldn't. So that's fine. :cool:
Things I like:
Remote access when away.
Mobile/wireless room thermostat.
Easy programming via App on iPhone/iPad.
Things I don't like:
Dependency on the manufacturer to keep running their internet service and your registration account.
Only App access, no web browser interface.
All the clever extras in the software, they seem to be rather too clever in many cases, certainly for us. And I'm a retired IT guy, man and boy!
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@HPsauce:
Many thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed review of your system, much appreciated.
I have incorporated a Mitsubishi Alpha-2 PLC into my simple "S Plan" system to try to compensate for lack of proper zone control, a bit of over kill I know but was good fun to program and is very easy to monitor or change, has worked well for close to 4 years and has saved some running costs.
However, it's becoming old technology now and can never provide proper zone control without additional hardware.
By just replacing the existing programmer I will be able to retain the PLC interface to the existing control system but with view to removal when happy with the new smart system.
I will very likely go for the Drayton Wiser system, Amazon packaged kits appear to be the most cost effective option, hanging on for the 12th/13th July Amazon sale days in case of possible offers.
My existing TRV's are mostly Danfoss RAV 26mm units which I believe work with the supplied plastic adapters, however, noted that there are more robust metal adapters available by a third party at quite a modest cost should these be necessary.
I have a few Myson TRV's also, not sure if they will need adapters.
I like the use of the separate "ZigBee" mesh system for hub, inter-device communication with a separate Wi-Fi system for hub, router/cloud comm's with the option to install additional "smart plugs" which also act as boosters for any possible bad coverage areas.
Yes, as someone who uses desktop PC's on a daily basis would also have liked a PC interface, something that is available on the Tado system.
Believe the Google Nest Hub, which I use, can be configured to interface with some of the system controls.
Wonder what's your experience on TRV's battery life, lots of different opinions on this available?
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I don't have any TRVs so can't comment on battery life.
Our central heating circuit is a weird extended hybrid of single-pipe and dual-pipe systems and TRVs would probably mess it up totally so I daren't fit any.
I did once set up Google Home and it had a vaguely useful interface to the Wiser, though not as complete as the Apps. Gave up on it fairly quickly as it didn't do anything else useful. So I expect their other products may well communicate to some extent.
And yes I bought mine on Amazon when there was a "deal". :cool:
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My TRV battery's (2x AA) last about 12-15 months.. I think it could depend how many set points are being used per day. But you can use rechargeable Ni-cads or Li-ion instead (change battery type setting on TRV!).
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@parkdale:
Many thanks for the interest and information.
If I can obtain that sort of TRV battery life with the proposed Drayton Wiser valves I'll be more than happy, accepting that your TRV's are Honeywell Evohome so not a direct comparison.
Yes, as you say, the frequency and amount of TVR movement would be a big factor regarding battery life which would be very hard to predict, I have no idea if the valves adopt a fully proportional control profile which would effect the valve modulation characteristics, probably more likely to have a stepped profile with a pre-defined dead band.
Ni-cad batteries apparently will work but give an issue with condition reporting due to their lower (1.2v) cell voltage.
Li-ion batteries are better but due to their very rapid decay characteristics at end of cycle again cause condition reporting issues, ie., very little or no impending end of cycle life warning.
Edit: Typo correction
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I have Hive heating. They can usually be obtained with substantial reduction on Prime day/Black Friday. afaik the device is compatible with most boilers. Can be fitted DIY or British Gas install.
I'm extremely happy with my system (Heating & Hot Water & Hive Hub & Thermostat) which was substantially reduced during Black Friday event Nov 2017 and cost j~£150 including installation by British Gas. I was starting from scrath so needed a Hive Hub, but now the Hub also controls my lighting too.
Bearing in mind Prime day is next week it may be worthwhile checking out how much its reduced by. I deliberately wanted a system without annual costs or fees and was compatible with Alexa voice commands. Further reductions if you can fit it yourself and already have a Hive hub.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B011B3J6F4/ref=pe_3187911_185740111_TE_item?th=1
Info about the various system and thermostats.
https://www.hivehome.com/guides/hive-heating
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@kitz:
Many thanks for the information, hope you are well?
Bearing in mind Prime day is next week it may be worthwhile checking out how much its reduced by.
Yes, I'am waiting for the Prime event next week before ordering anything, hoping for offers :fingers:
My main consideration and driver towards a smart system is to try and segregate (zone) the CH areas so won't be over/under heating the less used areas in our 4 BR bungalow with 2 occupants.
Do have standard (dumb) TRV's on all radiators but local temperature control is always a compromise and of course has to be manually trimmed.
I deliberately wanted a system without annual costs or fees and was compatible with Alexa voice commands.
Had initially considered the Tado system but they charge a monthly/yearly fee for some of their features.
The Drayton Wiser system I'am currently considering is fully compatable with Alexa & Google as are most of the others.
My current CH/HW system with the Mitsubishi Alpha-2 PLC is very configurable but not true zonal, being completely my own design, fabrication and programming it's non standard, as such, the wife's worried that I will "pop my cloggs" and leave her with a system that no one else can maintain or repair, probably fair comment :(
Another good reason to change to a more "standard" system.
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My main consideration and driver towards a smart system is to try and segregate (zone) the CH areas so won't be over/under heating the less used areas in our 4 BR bungalow with 2 occupants.
Do have standard (dumb) TRV's on all radiators but local temperature control is always a compromise and of course has to be manually trimmed.
The Hive Smart TRVs (https://www.hivehome.com/shop/smart-heating/hive-radiator-valve?) are linked to the Hive Hub. You can control each TRV independently or create zones with different time schedules and temp. I cant personally comment on their performance as atm I only have standard TVRs on my radiators. I have the portable thermostat stand and I occasionally move it between lounge & study. However, I do have zones and scheduling for my lights, which work extremely well so I have no reason to doubt setting up heating zones.
Actually I will be checking the prices of TRV's myself next week for a new rad that will be installed in the back room when completed. Im finding stairs more difficult, but I'm not sure whats going on with my internal thermostat. At first I thought Alexa was lying and giving me duff temperature saying my house was 23 degrees, yet there I was with 2 jumpers & a fleece hoody throw visibly shivering. I'm dreading winter.... when I cant get warm in summer, the sun can be shining and a lovely warm day,but there's me with goosebumps, wrapped in a throw & shivering :/
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Yes, I'am waiting for the Prime event next week before ordering anything, hoping for offers :fingers:
The wait paid off, reductions on the Drayton Wiser kit on the Amazon Prime sale today.
After ordering kit early hours annoyed to find there were further reductions this morning >:(
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At least you made some savings. It is annoying when they do that. However, it can be risky waiting though, quite often I've seen some of the Smart goods or popular brands run out of stock quite soon. I've missed deals more than once by hesitating.
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The Hive Smart TRVs (https://www.hivehome.com/shop/smart-heating/hive-radiator-valve?) are linked to the Hive Hub.
Do you happen to know if the TRVs interlink with the boiler, ie boiler and pump only come on if at least one TRV is calling for heat? When I looked a few years ago there were lots of systems missing that bit, so you still had to have your boiler/pump on a timer or something.
We're looking for something with individual radiator controls, due to the house layout it would mean a lot of the time we'd only heat half of the area.
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Do you happen to know if the TRVs interlink with the boiler, ie boiler and pump only come on if at least one TRV is calling for heat?
Can only comment on the Drayton Wiser system where any CH demand from room stat or radiator stat via the hub acts exactly as per non-smart system where programmer demand + room stat demand will activate the boiler & circ pump.
There would be no point in generating heat demand from either room or radiator stat's if it could not start the heat/circulation source, ie., boiler & pump.
Would imagine this would be the basic operating principle of any smart system.
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Have had a play with my Drayton Wiser system for a few days, hub bench powered and experimenting with radiator stat's on my varied makes of existing TRV's, majority of which are quite old "Danfoss RA" units.
Just manually start/stop CH system when hub indicates heat demand/satisfied for testing purposes.
The provided Danfoss RA adapters supplied work very well physically, certainly a lot better than the supplied Tado TRV adapters tried previously, however, don't think the valve is opening sufficiently on demand as the rad's are very slow to heat by comparison to stat's directly fitted (no adapter) to 2 other radiators with cheap generic TRV bodies.
Definately seems to be "Danfoss" pecular as all 3 rad's which have smart stat's fitted react exactly the same way.
Have tried multiple valve re-calibrations.
Have queried the operation to Wiser today, awaiting response.
Hope I don't have to change out the Danfoss TRV bodies, may come to that :(
Also have a number of old Myson TRV's which will need adapters, not supplied but available third party at £10 to £12 a go, have ordered one to try.
GUI is by smart phone only, Android or Apple, quite impressive but would have liked a PC interface as well.
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Does the Wiser system control hot water as well as heating?
Edit: looks like it does, but maybe timed only would that be correct? I can't see reference anywhere to a hot water stat as part of the system. So maybe timed but in conjunction with a conventional stat on the cylinder.
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Wiser systems do something called OpenTherm which I believe is a water temperature control mechanism on Combi boilers.
I don't have one so can't explain further.
With our "old school" boiler the hot water is indeed just on or off on a timed basis as far as the Wiser is concerned.
There are thermostats on the boiler and hot water tank which will turn the boiler off as appropriate, but Wiser is unaware of them.
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Honeywell explanation of Open therm https://theevohomeshop.co.uk/what-is-opentherm-and-why-use-honeywell-evohome-with-it/
Only for reference not trying to sell to anybody!! ;)
My system can turn on one or all trv's, so yes you can turn on just one rad. Saves heating unused areas of our house.
We have an Gas converted AGA in the kitchen so it's roasting all year round :) and a log burner in the lounge, when that's on the lounge rad hardly ever comes on, unless the room's below the set temp.
Note: our AGA has a heated water circuit/ and H/W tank!! (Supplies H/W to kitchen tap only! This is entirely separate pipework from the Combi boiler which feeds H/W to the bathroom/ Outside toilet on demand only.
I would like to get rid of the AGA water heater, but as this AGA dates from 1955, they used fullers earth (Mica on later models) as an insulator!! and in removing the stuff would get all over the house, even in a double wrapped tent!
At some point i'm going to have to "Rip the plaster off"...
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Quote by aesmith:
Does the Wiser system control hot water as well as heating?
Further to the answer by "HPsauce", in a conventional domestic CH/HW system (not combi-boiler), HW is controlled from the Wiser Hub (smart phone app) but only with regard to programmable on/off switching, HW tank temperature control as such remains with the tank contact thermostat and not controlled by or visable to the Wiser system.
@parkdale:
Very good link/explanation of Open Therm, best I've seen.
Not applicable to oil fired boilers as in my case as far as I can see.
The Wiser Hub is supplied with an Open Therm module fitted.
Have had a very basic reply from Wiser support regarding my query submitted yesterday on Danfoss RA TRV adapters, requesting photos, dimensions etc., will supply and hope for positive suggestions/solutions :fingers:
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For anyone perhaps contemplating investing in or upgrading a Drayton Wiser smart home system.
The parent company, Schneider Electric, have some very good offers at present on their on line shop.
I bought the conventional boiler, multi-zone starter kit plus a 3 radiator stat pack from Amazon on the recent Prime day sale at what I thought was a very good price, same kit is now £40 less when bought directly from the Schneider shop with free (all UK) courier delivery.
Have sourced radiator stat adapters for my very old Myson TRV's which use a 28mm diameter thread, adapts to the now standard 30mm diameter TVR fittings.
Easily fitted, metal construction, work well, cost just under £10 each.
Still waiting on some constructive feedback other than "investigating" from Wiser support ref the Danfoss RA TRV adapters.
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An update for any interested parties:
Have now implemented most of the system and is under limited testing with consideration to the current mild weather and ever increasing cost of heating oil, 104p/ltr this morning, has risen from 80p/ltr since mid August and shows no signs of halting!
Generally happy with the system so far, no major issues.
Still have an issue with one of my Danfoss TRV's, minimal response to heat demand from radiator, have left this as one of the "uncontrolled" radiators in the system which is recommended, retains it's manual TRV set at high temperature.
Strangely enough, all my other Danfoss (adapted to smart) TRV's seem to work perfectly?
Wiser support have never responded further to my query regarding the Danfoss TRV adapter issue, doesn't exactly enspire confidence!
Have retained my Mitsubishi Alpha-2 PLC interface in the mean time during appraisal & testing running on a much simplified program which still incorporates the 2 area stat's, just in case the system should "run away", can also monitor HW & CH demand v boiler running time to better appraise the system performance.
The reported room temperature from the radiator TRV's always appears to be at least 2 deg's higher than actual, Wiser say this is intentional as an "algorithm" is applied to compensate for the near proximity of the TRV sensor to the heat source, may have to compensate for this when setting room temperature set points.
A local room stat can be added to any area which will automatically take priority over the radiator TRV, this would however add quite a lot of expense to the system if implemented fully.
I have one local room stat at present which I can experiment with when heating becomes more active in the autumn/winter, hopefull can get around the local stat's requirement in most areas.
Google home integration is working very well and was very easy to set up.
Don't use Alexa but integration is supposed to be just as effective.
Have not tried remote IFTTT as yet.
So far happy with the investment which I hope will achieve the objective of being able to zone my heating requirements and reduce oil consumption over the winter months, no better time to try and achieve that outcome!