Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: Chunkers on November 20, 2015, 09:12:15 AM
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Hiya!
Due to the location of our phone line, ADSL modem and main router (an Asus AC68U) I have found it necessary to have a second WAP at the other end of our house (I ran CAT5 cable years ago) to provide decent coverage.
The family spend on lot of time on their wireless devices (mostly Apple stuff apart frm me), they stream a lot of video etc
When I bought the AC68U (used with a modem) I re-purposed my 'spare' router a TP-Link TD-W8980 as a WAP, this option exists within the configuration options in the firmware.
With a bt of messing about it does work however I have been disappointed with its reliability and on occasion devices are unable to connect to it / it seems to freeze or even disappear. On reboot things go back to normal ........ for a while.
I think its time to replace it with something better and with 11ac of some flavour, the obvious choice would be to buy another AC68U which has been excellent so far but is possibly a bit OTT for my needs. This is purely a WAP so I guess a ASUS RT-AC56U would be fine (note : I have no particular allegiance to Asus just a lack of imagination!)
Any recommendations?
Chunks
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I use one of these, but there's cheaper alternatives.
http://www.edimax.com/edimax/merchandise/merchandise_detail/data/edimax/au/smb_access_points_ac1750/wap1750/
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I use one of these, but there's cheaper alternatives.
http://www.edimax.com/edimax/merchandise/merchandise_detail/data/edimax/au/smb_access_points_ac1750/wap1750/
Looks really nice but is a bit premium for what I am looking for - probably better than my main router :)
Thanks for the response!
C
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We've had good results with the Open Mesh access points for some of our small business customers, see http://www.open-mesh.com/solutions.html
UK supplier here ... http://www.openmesh-uk.com/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=9a1924ec06844dafba802a975a0d0e04
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We have so many neighbouring houses, flats and businesses using the 2.4GHz spectrum that we need to cover the house in 5GHz. However, it turns out that cheap consumer-grade routers just aren't very capable in the 5GHz spectrum - they run at reduced power (perhaps to meet the lower US rules), and don't bother to implement any radar detection algorithms, so miss out on most of the channels.
In the end, opting for a low-end commercial grade access point appeared to be the best option - to totally replace the WiFi from the router. That way we'd get better coverage from a single access point, but also have something that could co-operate if we needed two.
We considered the Edimax, Engenius, Ubiquiti ranges, but ended up trying an Xclaim Xi-2 (AC would need the next model up). Managing it has been a pain, but is currently controlled via their online cloud service. However, from a wireless perspective, it operates just fine ... with plenty of range, and usually chooses one of the high, radar-monitored channels.
I see Ubiquiti have brought out some new models - A UAP-AC-Lite model. If I were looking right now, I'd probably give this a shot.
https://blog.linitx.com/uap-ac-range/
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OK, I am getting a steer away from consumer grade hardware in this thread so I think I'll have to give it some thought. It makes sense as I guess my current issues with the TP-Link do indicate that maybe the budget choice isn't the best!
In general I agree that one get's what one pays for. I think I'll go away and do some research on the lower end business grade stuff like Xclaim and Ubiquiti (and save up).
Thanks for the advice!
Chunks
EDIT : Hmm the plot thickens (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/10/review-ubiquiti-unifi-made-me-realize-how-terrible-consumer-wi-fi-gear-is/)
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I use a couple of ~£50 PoE 5 GHz-only (no 2.4GHz) TP-Link WAPs which are meant to be for outdoor use, but I have them inside the house. They have been very reliable.
I also have two really expensive ZyXel dual-frequency (5 GHz and 2.4 GHz) WAPs which are enterprise-class devices in that they can offer CAPWAP and are pigs to configure (confusing, and config operations are slow too). These devices have also been rock solid. One really nice thing about these devices is that one unit can present multiple SSIDs, so a single device can make it appear as if there are a number of separate independent networks. I have them set up to offer access on a 2.4 GHz network as well as 5 GHz, but I haven't used 2.4 GHz much. Luckily more and more kit seems to speak 5 GHz these days. There is a lot of Apple hardware around and their kit is all 5 GHz-capable.
I'm thinking about going over to Ubiquiti some day, (i) when the prices come down, and (ii) when more kit is available that speaks 802.11ac in its higher performance configurations.
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EDIT : Hmm the plot thickens (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/10/review-ubiquiti-unifi-made-me-realize-how-terrible-consumer-wi-fi-gear-is/)
Well spotted. The guy sums up my own feelings, though being US-based, obviously hasn't encountered problems with consumer hardware being too US-centric for us Europeans.
It's a hefty article, so I'll have to mark it for proper perusal later...
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Thanks everyone for the advice ! I have given it a lot of thought and come to the following conclusions for my particular situation:
- I think is possible to buy a reliable consumer grade WAP
- I haven't found any convincing evidence that low-end enterprise hardware offers better range or speed than well-chosen consumer grade gear using the same standard e.g. 11ac
- The features and enhancements enterprise gear offers don't benefit me at home really
I suspect some of you guys are 'power users' and benefit in ways that I will not, so overall enterprise equipment only makes sense for me it if is the same price as consumer grade - which it isn't really (duh!)
I am a bit suspicious the the article I linked above and videos like this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiDzh59sYz4) may not be very objective.
So, I am not saying other people won't benefit just that I doubt I will.
Thanks!
Chunks
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What do you think you're going to go for? I have a sort of feeling that TP-Link are towards the bottom end of residential equipment, this might be blind prejudice on my part, but I'd be interested to hear what you went for and whether it performs better for you.
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@AESmith I was quite suspicious of TP-Link because their prices are so incredibly low. But in my experience there's nothing wrong with it. I've been using a couple of TP-Link 5 GHz PoE WAPs for a long time now, with no problems at all, and the kit has a sophisticated feature set too.
I've also used a TP-Link switch which was very rich in features for not much money too, and it seemed well-built.
I have no idea how they do it for the prices they charge but in my admittedly limited experience they are definitely worth a look.
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I have also had good experiences with TP-Link stuff in general, I am going to see if I can find a bargain on Cyber Monday and wil probably try and find a good deal on well reviewed 11ac WAP from someone like Asus, Linksys, Netgear (maybe) or even Apple.
Would love another Asus AC68U but can;t see me paying full price for one. If I don't see a bargain I might wait until the January sales
Chunks
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I suspect some of you guys are 'power users' and benefit in ways that I will not, so overall enterprise equipment only makes sense for me it if is the same price as consumer grade - which it isn't really (duh!)
I guess that, here, we're "power users" in the sense that we need the network stuff to keep working reliably, for work/employment purposes. We can't be faffing. Or, more accurately, I'm not allowed to faff when "the boss" needs to work.
Beyond reliability, I'm not really a power user. However, in a place where I can always see more than 20 networks in the 2.4GHz spectrum (sometimes up to 40), reliability is not automatic (especially around 4pm), and I've had to learn something to stay in control of my own network.
But, as you say, it very much depends on your own particular circumstances.
But, having learnt how little the vendors of consumer-grade equipment tells you (about power, channels, range, etc), I suspect the term "power user" might just equal an informed consumer who is capable of figuring out their own circumstances.
- I haven't found any convincing evidence that low-end enterprise hardware offers better range or speed than well-chosen consumer grade gear using the same standard e.g. 11ac
I'm really surprised you haven't come across some of the power and channel problems at 5GHz. Perhaps the key phrase is "well-chosen", and perhaps equipment is becoming available that *can* be well-chosen!
I found this information invaluable in getting to the bottom of things, from someone who is undoubtedly a real power user.
http://wifinigel.blogspot.co.uk/p/5ghz-in-uk.html
When I started to do a proper job of "choosing", I discovered how hard the vendors make it. In the consumer arena, how often do you get told what the choice of channels will be? How often are the DFS and TPC buzzwords used? How often is the maximum power specified? How often is it possible to determine UK-specific, or even EU-specific, answers to the above?
WiFi-Nigel's white paper opened up a whole raft of issues to become educated on ... only to find that consumer-grade equipment didn't bother with the answers.
It seemed, at the time, that a lot of consumer-grade equipment was equally limited to just 4 channels in the 5GHz spectrum. Once everyone is running 11ac, and trying to use 80MHz of spectrum, they'd *all* be using the same 4 channels.
My conclusion was that, if I wanted reliability, I *really* want to be using something different to them. And If I wanted to eliminate the notspots, I either needed access to the full power, or I needed something that worked well with more than one access point.
It certainly took some work to become informed enough here. (Just enough to be dangerous? :lol: )
I have a sort of feeling that TP-Link are towards the bottom end of residential equipment
A year ago, I was using the TP-Link WDR3600, which included concurrent 5GHz support. However, it turned out to be limited with
- No support for any radar detection
- Which, in turn, meant no support for 15 of the 19 channels in the 5GHz spectrum
- Was hardware-limited to be US (FCC) friendly
- Which, in turn, limited the maximum 5GHz power to 17dBm, instead of the 23-27dBm available in the UK
- Which, in turn, heavily impacted range inside the house. There were distinct not-spots.
Definitely not "well-chosen"! In this case, TP-Link's cheapness showed, but other stuff of theirs has been fine.
Having since chosen a low-end enterprise AP, I find that:
- I'm the only WiFi signal that is using any of the radar-monitored spectrum. I compete with no-one, and long may that continue :fingers:
- The extra power has increased range within the house sufficiently, so I only need one access point.
The range, on 5GHz, has improved so much that it is now better than 2.4GHz. It suggests that the well-worn myth (that 5GHz range is poor) has come about because of badly-understood power limitations that shouldn't exist - at least not in the UK.
(Interesting, though, that the US has recently increased their power allowances now, with the deliberate aim of standardising the power of their entire UNII band. And that prior to this, some Asus models were cheating)
http://www.revolutionwifi.net/revolutionwifi/2014/04/impact-of-fcc-5-ghz-u-nii-report-order.html
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-features/32431-is-your-routers-transmit-power-juiced
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(Interesting, though, that the US has recently increased their power allowances now, with the deliberate aim of standardising the power of their entire UNII band. And that prior to this, some Asus models were cheating)
For information:
The Asus cheating point is somewhat out of date.
It was a specific version of Firmware that ASUS was caught on and as a result ASUS overreacted and made all official firmware work strictly to the FCC limits whether in the US of A or outside.
This caused a big reaction from the ASUS Users as this meant that the legally allowable limits for the UK and many other regions were NOT being enabled.
I know this because I was one of the many users impacted.
Look up 'Asuswrt-Merlin - custom firmware for Asus routers' at http://www.snbforums.com/threads/asuswrt-merlin-custom-firmware-for-asus-routers.7846/ (http://www.snbforums.com/threads/asuswrt-merlin-custom-firmware-for-asus-routers.7846/)
The ASUS overreaction impacted the custom firmware as the developer was forced to adopt the 'limited' functionality of the official firmware to satisfy ASUS and maintain the existing good relationship.
(ASUS works with the developer allowing access to early firmware builds etc and reciprocally has adopted some of the ideas he has introduced in the Asuswrt-merlin custom firmware.)
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I would recommend giving OpenWRT a try (https://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/td-w8980) before replacing anything, it may very well be a zero cost solution. Although it appears it does not support the 5Ghz WiFi in this router, only the 2.4Ghz. :( But its worth a shot IMO.
We have so many neighbouring houses, flats and businesses using the 2.4GHz spectrum that we need to cover the house in 5GHz. However, it turns out that cheap consumer-grade routers just aren't very capable in the 5GHz spectrum - they run at reduced power (perhaps to meet the lower US rules), and don't bother to implement any radar detection algorithms, so miss out on most of the channels.
In the end, opting for a low-end commercial grade access point appeared to be the best option - to totally replace the WiFi from the router. That way we'd get better coverage from a single access point, but also have something that could co-operate if we needed two.
We considered the Edimax, Engenius, Ubiquiti ranges, but ended up trying an Xclaim Xi-2 (AC would need the next model up). Managing it has been a pain, but is currently controlled via their online cloud service. However, from a wireless perspective, it operates just fine ... with plenty of range, and usually chooses one of the high, radar-monitored channels.
I see Ubiquiti have brought out some new models - A UAP-AC-Lite model. If I were looking right now, I'd probably give this a shot.
https://blog.linitx.com/uap-ac-range/
This is no longer true as OpenWRT now supports DFS, although I doubt it will ever be quite as rock-solid as an enterprise solution by its very nature.
I have been able to use DFS channels on my TP-Link Archer C7 v2, but it does seem that if it detects radar it switches back to channel 36 rather than moving onto another DFS channel. :/ But then that might be an issue with the Atheros 802.11ac Open Source drivers as they still seem to be heavily in development and a bit flaky.
Ignoring DFS channels and AC hardware however, I have found OpenWRT very stable. I have a TP-Link WDR3600 creating a link across the road and I have never needed to reboot it.
The beauty of using OpenWRT for my several APs is I have a central status page on my main router that probes them all for WiFi stats and shows me where each client is connected.
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ASUS overreacted and made all official firmware work strictly to the FCC limits whether in the US of A or outside.
Precisely my point - that consumers, when uneducated on the complex issues, are thoroughly at the mercy of the vendors who play fast and loose with the varying national tech specs.
Look up 'Asuswrt-Merlin - custom firmware for Asus routers'
Yes, I did the equivalent thing for the TP-Link WDR3600 - but was still encumbered by the ultimate hardware limitation that, while it could beat the FCC limits, still couldn't get up to full UK/EU spec.
Having discovered this, it did help provide alternative firmware when I moved house. FTTC took months to sort out (wrong cabinet id in the openreach database), and we had to resort to 4G for a while. The WDR3600 became a "ROOter" (Aussie project) (http://ofmodemsandmen.com/), with OpenWRT-based firmware that used the USB port to connect to a 4G dongle.
The ASUS overreaction impacted the custom firmware as the developer was forced to adopt the 'limited' functionality of the official firmware to satisfy ASUS and maintain the existing good relationship.
Aye - and the FCC have been trying to enforce the same "limited" functionality by, on the face of it, attempting to ban custom firmware. Or maybe they aren't, in name, but will end up doing so in practice.
http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/11/fcc-we-arent-banning-dd-wrt-on-wi-fi-routers/
Vendors could, of course, choose to split their manufacturing output, so that FCC-compliant hardware goes to the US, and the rest of us gets reasonable stuff - but that isn't likely to happen to the cheapest vendors like TP-Link.
I would recommend giving OpenWRT a try before replacing anything, it may very well be a zero cost solution.
Certainly worth looking at this, or one of the many variants.
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This is no longer true as OpenWRT now supports DFS
Strictly, yes.
But, almost by definition, a willingness to flash OpenWRT means a consumer has educated himself on some of the issues, has found the stock firmware to be wanting, has found an alternative firmware, and is both willing and technically able to flash OpenWRT and turn it into the router he wants.
Your point is right - that OpenWRT can overcome some of the vendor-imposed limitations, and is getting better too. I used it myself to partly recover capability closer to the UK limits - but still not enough to cover the whole house. In my case, consumer-grade hardware plus enthusiast-grade firmware plus knowledgeable user still didn't cut the mustard.
But consumer-grade hardware, with stock firmware, in the hands of the average consumer, still seems to be badly limited.
[Aside:
In researching for this thread, I see that someone has tweaked a little more power out of the WDR3600 this year, on some channels, but still not enough. Too late for me, of course, as I've already moved to something where I don't need OpenWRT - on the very bleeding edge - to behave. The WDR3600 is now sitting in a cupboard, waiting for next time I need to fall back to the 4G modem.]