Kitz Forum
Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: sevenlayermuddle on April 13, 2010, 04:51:03 PM
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I've had a letter telling me they want to install 'smart meters'. The letter doesn't tell me anything about how the meters will work, or what the installation process will involve. A quick phone call to the helpline, which is actually the installation contractors drew a blank, they are unable/unwilling to advise on anything tehcnical and referred me back to British Gas. I don't have high hopes that British Gas would be any more helpful, so I've simply indicated a refusal of the installation.
If, as seems to be the case (or am I wrong?), the gas & electric meters are to participate in wireless communications with a portable display unit, then the gas meter will need a power supply that it doesn't currently have. That would seem to imply a new wiring spur, which implies holes in the walls and decorative damage which I don't want.
Further, they describe the meters as 'using mobile phone technology'. If that means they communicate using GSM, then they probably ought not to be used if the meters are in close proximity to any telephone phone wiring. We've all heard the characteristic GSM 'chatter' when phones are placed close to sound systems, TVs etc, and the same chatter would quite likely upset broadband.
I'm feeling very negative about this, particularly as I think the whole idea is flawed anyway and won't do anything at all to 'save the planet'.
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Not wishing to pry, but is your supplier British Gas? The reason I ask is that they are not essentially my supplier in that I do not pay my bills to them. Having said that it's a bit like BT because the gas supply comes to my house via the British Gas network and the meter is the property of British Gas. ???
I have not had a letter such as you have, but it would appear that I may do.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
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Yes, my supplier is British Gas, though I really must get around to rectifying that some day.
Incidentally, the letter also mentions that the meters, and the display unit, will remain property of BG. That might make the process of switching supplier in future slightly more frought, if it means I also have to have the meters changed back.
I may be being unecessarily alarmist about this, so make up your own mind if you do get a letter.
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With both Gas and Electricity, the meters remain the property of the area supplier (In my case EDF) no matter which company invoices you for your energy.
This remains so even if you change several times.
Kind regards,
Walter
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I wouldn't think there would be a need to switch meters back and forth as long as the display can be read manually. As mentioned British Gas own the meter, pipework and the entire network. The people that I pay my bills to are not actual suppliers so I am told, they are rather like IP Profile providers on the net, they provide the service charged at their own rate. It is a minefield when one gets down to the nitty gritty. The meter readers are not British Gas readers anymore but some contracted out business. What a mess.
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It now appears that the gas meter is long-life battery powered, which alays one of my fears, so far so good.
However, the 'phone-home' technology is GPRS, which confirms my fear of possible 'GSM chatter' broadband intereference, or even just interference with TVs and Sound systems. I have very little confidence that BG would be pro-active in resolving any such interference, if it arose.
There is also an in-home network, by which the meters communicate with the GPRS hardware, and with the display unit, which uses 2.4GHz wireless. That probably (thoughts, anybody?) won't interfere with broadband, but does add to all the other GHz clutter from WiFi, DECT phones, wireless keyboards, etc, and I'd not be surprised if some symptoms arose.
I'm as yet unclear about meter-ownership. These are not standard meters, and they must cost more to make. If BG are installing them in their capacity as 'energy supplier', then they mayt well ask for them back rather than pass them on free-of-cost to another supplier.
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Power meters, both gas and electric, have never been free and the power supply company retained ownership of the equipment. Until recently there was a standing charge made for all meters. I just forget when the charge was scrapped, but you can bet that charge has been included in the charges of today. The same will happen with any new equipment that is supplied.
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I am implicitly involved in this product and would be happy to discuss it offline with any of you who may have concerns. PM me and I will give you my number to call. Meanwhile, have a look at www.electrans.com
Colin
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Does anybody know if an ethernet based version is to be developed?
The reason for asking is that some have experienced significant difficulties with wireless systems particularly in houses with foil-backed plasterboad walls or metal-rich rock.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Maybe this thread started off with the wrong impression, in that British Gas would be installing a new meter, the smart meter. Maybe it was just myself who got it wrong, being the dimwit that I am sometimes. After reading Camalliason's post I now realize it is one of those gadgets that gather energy readings from existing meters. No need for holes being drilled and the like, and, it is probably just a British Gas customer thing at the moment.
Waltergmw's post confirms this and I can fully understand what the post is about. I cannot answer the question though.
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Maybe this thread started off with the wrong impression, in that British Gas would be installing a new meter, the smart meter..
So far as I know, your initial impression was right. That is exactly what they are planning. The letter is headed "We need to exchange your meters".
There's a lot of informative reading at...
http://www.centrica.co.uk/index.asp?pageid=39&newsid=1970
... Note there's some excellent technical detail in the .pdfs further down that page.
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The government plan to have the smart meters installed in all homes.
Of course there is more to it than just transmitting your meter readings to your provider.
It is a stepping stone to being charged for usage and pricing will vary depending at what time of day you use the energy.
For the average consumer, I think we are deluding ourselves if we anticipate lower prices via this type of metering.
exo
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>> For the average consumer, I think we are deluding ourselves if we anticipate lower prices via this type of metering.
Wrong - informed discussion and experience rather than speculation will prove so. Anyone wish to take up my offer? I don't want to post here about it as I am/have been working within the team and subject to non-disclosure.
Colin
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The devices actually add to your power consumption, as the GPRS sender unit, the meter's elctronics, and the in home display unit, will all consume additional energy over and above what you use at the moment.
Moreover, that energy can only be disipated as heat which, in the case of the meters, may be disipated outside the building (if you have external boxes), so although it's small, it really is wasted energy - it doesn't even contribute to heating your home.
And that's quite apart from the carbon footprint of manufacturing it all, and of disposing of millions of old meters that are still in perfect working order.
But my over-riding concern remains the possibility of 'GSM chatter' interference from the telecommunications hub (see the .pdfs in my earlier link).
So with apologies to Colin, and no offence intended, but I don't feel positive about it all.
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Does anybody know if an ethernet based version is to be developed?
The reason for asking is that some have experienced significant difficulties with wireless systems particularly in houses with foil-backed plasterboad walls or metal-rich rock.
Kind regards,
Walter
Have a look at the site I referenced - particularly the tech spec
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The devices actually add to your power consumption, as the GPRS sender unit, the meter's elctronics, and the in home display unit, will all consume additional energy over and above what you use at the moment.
Moreover, that energy can only be disipated as heat which, in the case of the meters, may be disipated outside the building (if you have external boxes), so although it's small, it really is wasted energy - it doesn't even contribute to heating your home.
And that's quite apart from the carbon footprint of manufacturing it all, and of disposing of millions of old meters that are still in perfect working order.
But my over-riding concern remains the possibility of 'GSM chatter' interference from the telecommunications hub (see the .pdfs in my earlier link).
So with apologies to Colin, and no offence intended, but I don't feel positive about it all.
I think you are observing from a position of "no information", which is a shame - BG should explain better to get buy-in. Power consumption is at the mA level for all but the occasional burst transmission by the GPRS unit. The in-home display/payment terminal also draws very little power, the meters each draw mA levels - so where is the problem? By referring to the display, users HAVE modified their consumption behaviour, and utilities will offer incentives to do so. Peak load management and energy savings are all what this is about.
I urge you to look at the Electrans site and read in detail. Extensive long-term trials have allayed our fears and hence those for you, the prospective user.
EDIT - the old meters have to be changed out at intervals anyhow - 15 to 20 years and mandated by OFGEM - to guarantee fiscal accuracy. This replaces them with an up-to-date meter that enables remote metering. I took the electricity meter to MID-approval and supervised development, design and testing. I can assure you that all of your fears were ours too - no longer.
Colin
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With both Gas and Electricity, the meters remain the property of the area supplier (In my case EDF) no matter which company invoices you for your energy.
This remains so even if you change several times.
Kind regards,
Walter
Correct - the "asset" (the meter) is re-assigned to the new utility company. The new remote-read meters also have a digital display so that any utility company not yet participating can read it should the householder move supplier. OFGEM certainly wouldn't allow a monopoly position to be "won" by such means as unique meters. Having been involved in this project for the past 8 years, I can reassure you that it will be run fairly and, OFGEM will ensure that the consumer doesn't lose out. Accurate, regular metering is in the consumer's interest, as is the possibility of in-home payment and tariff-management.
Colin
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I think it may be unfair on Colin to continue debating this in public if he's bound by an NDA. So, as the originator of the thread, may I suggest we draw a line under it and let it rest?
I may take Colin up on his offer to respond to PMs, however... :)
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Thanks 7LM - I have already said more than I should! :o
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>> For the average consumer, I think we are deluding ourselves if we anticipate lower prices via this type of metering.
Wrong - informed discussion and experience rather than speculation will prove so. Anyone wish to take up my offer? I don't want to post here about it as I am/have been working within the team and subject to non-disclosure.
Colin
It is a bit patronising of you to state that my view is wrong but you are not prepared to inform us how savings will be made for the average user.
The Secure Electrans site was just as vague as to costs to the consumer. The cost of installation of these meters has already risen, which will be reflected in a higher energy bill.
I am not sure why everything is being so secretive, perhaps you can PM me and explain further as you appear to be bound by the 'Official Secrets Act'.........................without breaching the 'Act' of course.
exo
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Exo, I've PM'd you - 7LM.
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Yes, my supplier is British Gas, though I really must get around to rectifying that some day.
I know what you mean as I foolishly went back to British Gas after leaving them a few years ago but I will start a new thread about this.
Regarding the use of smart meters and the possibilty that installing them will mean slightly more energy usage, I'm glad that I decided not to have them installed as I was thinking about it when I first migrated back to them a few months ago.