Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: geep on March 23, 2010, 09:24:10 PM
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Hi everybody,
I've seen that my exchange will be enabled for BT Infinity "up to 40Mb" on 31 Dec 2010. http://tinyurl.com/yhvqhal (http://tinyurl.com/yhvqhal)
I suppose that this means that every cabinet in the area will get fibre? Or just some cabinets - how to know?
The nearest green BT cabinet is about 400m from my house. So if it's fibred up I'm wondering what speed I'd likely get - anybody any ideas?
If I put 5db 0.4km into the kitz speed estimator for ADSL I get a throughput of 21Mbps
And as Infinity uses VDSL I suppose even a bit faster.
Anybody know anything about the VDSL modem BT will be using and its line monitoring capabilties?
I've got used to monitoring my present connection, and now have statistics going back 14 months.
I'm a bit underwhelmed with my current LLU "up to 24Mb" connection, which achieves about 5.5Mb @ 39dB attenuation, 9dB SNR margin. But it is reliable.
Have considered Virgin cable, but wonder about their reliability, as most of the little plastic cabinets locally are vandalized with their bodies askew exposing the wiring to the elements. The nearest Virgin plastic cabinet is about 400m away. I chatted with a Virgin engineer one day and he told me that their fibre only reaches to some of their big metal cabinets, the nearest fibred one being about 850m away. So any ideas on speed actually achievable with Virgin?
Cheers,
Peter
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Sorry can't help but my gut feeling is if BT are saying something take it with a pinch of salt.
It may say up to 40MB but 0.5MB is also up to 40MB.
I think it is the caps that you should be looking at, no point going faster to just run out of usage quicker.
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If my exchange (Maidenhead) is anything to go by, then BT are installing the kit for fibre in the exchange, alongside the old.
They are also rolling out new cabinets and laying fibre to them. These new cabs are going firstly into the 'business parks' and areas with high a density of offices, and then spreading outwards into the residential areas.
Talking to some of the BT engineers, they are replacing the old cabinets with much sturdier and larger ones.
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Hi Geep,
I have a Virgin media 20 mbps service in Guildford and am about 500 m from their level three cabinet with the fibre interconnection.
I believe Virgin use a fibre loop so they can withstand one cable fault on each loop.
I have found them reasonably reliable over probably the last 15 years or so.
The only major outage I've experienced several years ago was after a lightning strike on a hub which took out a single power supply - i.e. one without a back-up.
Evening speeds are sometimes slower down to about 13 Mbps, presumably due to contention.
Here are my current TBB speeds but note that a download of say 500 megs of a software upgrade file usually achieves a throughput of around 2.5 Mbps.
24/03/10 09:58:18
Speed Down 17302.40 Kbps ( 16.9 Mbps )
Speed Up 713.84 Kbps ( 0.7 Mbps )
Note that their "little plastic cabinets" contain fully shielded co-ax cable (with separate twisted pair telephone lines) and not fibre.
We have Aluminium ones around here which are often in a similar condition but it does not seem to affect reliability or performance - even when one was flattened by a Land Rover last year.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Anybody know anything about the VDSL modem BT will be using and its line monitoring capabilties?
Apparently yes there is a monitoring capability but it can only be accessed by BT, although the BT speedtester site is compatible.
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Hi all,
Thanks for the comments.
I've now found an interesting resource over on http://www.trefor.net/ (http://www.trefor.net/)
He includes a photo of the new fibred cabinet which include a DSLAM.
The minimum speed you'll get is 15Mb. If your line can't support that then BT won't install.
I'll be looking out for new the new cabinets.
Cheers,
Peter
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Ok if you decide to take the infinity services then that means you will get a shiny new telephone socket (VDSL) with a shiny new modem designed yes wait for it by Openreach! You will then be sent an openreach engineer who will then off course install your new socket and your new modem where of course you will connect to the modem via a router with an ethernet cable (basically the same as virgin). If you want an estimate on what you will achieve on this service then go to www.bt.com/infinity and put your number in where it asks for it. It will then tell you what services are available (including FTTC) and give you an estimated speed. Ooooo the benifits of working for BT lol
Regards
Gary
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@ bluebeanbandit,
It is perhaps a little unfair to suggest everyone will get speeds even over 10 Mbps as in rural areas we would still have some with up to 4 km of aluminum and copper twisted pairs from the PCP or even Generaldisquiet's S(econdary)CP. As far as I can ascertain, there is still no universal service commitment to replace poorly performing cables. Sadly also neither BT nor Virgin Media with their coaxial-cable-to-the-house have any compunction to off-set some of their urban profits towards assisting even quite large rural communities such as Ewhurst with 3 PCPs and 900 homes. Currently there is no National subsidy available and any rural initiative seems to encourage a locally cobbled bespoke idea to provide best endeavour services with much lower returns on investment. (Pace Alston, Lyddington, Erbistock etc.)
Also note at present BT Openreach charge £127.60 for every MPF* connection in a FTTC and then a mere £93.96 per line annual rental. Then to that the installation and hire charges for the backhaul fibres plus the FTTC costs @ say another £30,000 plus a National backhaul must be included. Perhaps some will see what a very unsatisfactory situation these communities are in.
* MPF = Metallic Path Facility i.e. the sub loop unbundling / disconnecting (or SMPF shared for a broadband only connection with a standard phone line).
Sorry about the rant but it was too good an opportunity to miss !
Kindest regards,
Walter
EDIT Bluebeanbandit's post seems to have disappeared from this thread but I feel better for a rant !
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hmmmmm there won't be anymore aluminium cabling from the exchanges when they actually have all this rolled out as it will all be replaced with fibre to the cab there may though be aluminium cable from the cab to the house so perhaps that could be a downfall but the up on this is you won't have a long line any longer as your DSLAM will be in the cab as opposed to the exchange! Rural areas are not being done for now i don't think and i am not to sure when they will be done but by 2012 they hope to have 40% of the UK fitted with FTTC and the option to take on the service.
Regards
Gary
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Well next week I can give you a more definitive comparison, as I have virgin 50mbit and my FTTC line should be installed on the 18th so watch this space :)
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@ Garry,
I believe that none of the larger providers will wish to invest in FTTC for rural communities as they deem them to be uneconomic.
Those in such communities will have to find DIY solutions based around whatever funding can be found.
E.g. a Rutland Telecom broadband & VOIP type solution, which I believe required an investment of £37,000 for a community of 50 users, but hopefully with more joining in the future.
The figures can change quite a bit depending on the location of the nearest fibre, what the back-haul costs are likely to be, and how many PCP and / or SCP green cabinets are to be connected.
Kind regards,
Walter
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walter I hear you on the frustration, but is also in inner city areas as well.
please work this one out.
I emailed my MP before she retired and she is on BT's board so had some hope of resolution.
Basically I have succeeded in BT now planning to relay thicker copper to the cabinets connected to both city centre exchanges in leicester (these are mostly all long lines to residental properties), however they stated FTTC is not commercially viable. Of course the new copper will cost many multiples of a single fibre feed to each cabinet so BT are saying in affect its more commercially viable to lay new copper to the cabinets than fibre. confused? I certianly am.
I mentioned this on TBB, and I have been told it must be wrong, BT dont do these kind of decisions. If it is wrong tho it means I am been lied to because thats the clear answer I got back of my MP.
The FTTC rollout is for sure not copying how original adsl rollouts went and also is not only market 2/3 exchanges either, I see some small market 1 exchanges get it alongside big market 3 exchanges not getting it.
The big question is which we all have is what deems a exchange to be commercially viable.
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@ Chrysalis,
Perhaps it depends upon the weather or whether ? !!!!!!
Perhaps also you recall the definition:-
Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics !
(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics)
I'm astonished that you've achieved ANY changes, even if they are only promises, from BT O due to no Universal Service Obligation.
Kind regards,
Walter
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@ chrisalys,
Just to add some more confusion you'll see at:-
http://www.idnet.net/support/fibreavailability.jsp
That Narborough only has about 10,500 premises but is due for FTTC by December 2010.
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EMNARBO
Perhaps it's that Virgin or somebody else are planning an upgrade there ?
In your case, the only obstacle I've noticed are exchanges with a lot of lines connected directly to the exchange rather than through a PCP.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi
quote Of course the new copper will cost many multiples of a single fibre feed to each cabinet
Not too sure the above is right . There may be only a few cables to cabinet (multi core ) . They only need reconnecting to existing residential connections . Whereas Fibre to cabinet does mean new equipment to connect fibre to the existing residential connections .Possibly swings and roundabouts .
Regards Jeff
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@ Jeff,
Also if BT know they have some very unreliable aluminum, or other significant cable fault, or even just having not enough pairs in the cable, they are bound to replace that cable as they DO have a Universal Service Obligation just on the telephone side.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Well BT are having to install new cabinets to fit the DSLAMS for the FTTC so that is a big cost to them to start of with. The cabinets they are fitting are much bigger than the cabinets you see now. Off course there needs to be an upgrade to the PCP's and SCP's i am sure aswell. The cost of fibre is MUCH more than the cost of copper. For 400 metres of copper your talking about £80000 or possibly more so i was told by an OR engineer but i am near sure the cost of fibre is almost double to that. I have still not got my head around why this FTTC is not being rolled out EVERYWHERE cause you think of it this way the more its rolled out the more costume comes to SP that are investing into the roll out it just doesn't make sense. Why should rural areas not get this service i mean those areas are the type of areas that have been suffering the worse BB for many years now so i think they deserve some half decent service for BB.
Regards
Gary
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@ Gary,
The cost you have been quoted is the price to lay new ducts and a cable. Somebody other than BT with a more realistic costing system would probably be cheaper.
I had a quotation about two years ago for 100 Pr 0.5 mm Catenary cable at just under £3,000. IF the cables are in ducts, and not all BT cables are, then the replacement cost would be substantially less.
Kind reagrds,
Walter
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Patience is the key if your waiting for FTTC. OR is in the very early stages of what will be the future of broadband and how we use it at home and office. I am sure everyone remembers the early days of ADSL, i waited for 4 years for it to hit my exchange area when the exchange serving the other half of my town was one of the first for ADSL and is now FTTC ready. If you have a BT Wholesale competitor such as Virgin Media operating in your area you are more likely to be one of the first FTTC areas.
The speed of Metallic Path ADSL is dependant on Loss Insertion @300khz (measured in db's) For the vast majority, your metallic pair from exchange to pcp (e-side) is going to take the largest chunk of your db loss (pair material, conductor poundage and distance have the largest impact on loss) FTTC is going to take this loss away giving anyone an improvement in speed (including rural!) An example would be an end user with 78db loss over an 7.5km line (5km e-side and 2.5km d-side) take away the e-side using FTTC and they may have a 25db loss, 15meg would now be realistic (better than 1.2meg)
As far as OR replacing e side cables to improve ADSL speed, NO CHANCE! This would break every rule in the OFCOM book. I am also sure with the sky high price of copper, fibre is a far more economic option.
If OR upgraded every PCP to FTTC in a short time period they could never keep up with the demand placed on the engineering workforce. Remember ADSL wasnt always 'self-install' although this could happen for FTTC in the future along with VOIP as standard.
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@ chrisalys,
Just to add some more confusion you'll see at:-
http://www.idnet.net/support/fibreavailability.jsp
That Narborough only has about 10,500 premises but is due for FTTC by December 2010.
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EMNARBO
Perhaps it's that Virgin or somebody else are planning an upgrade there ?
In your case, the only obstacle I've noticed are exchanges with a lot of lines connected directly to the exchange rather than through a PCP.
Kind regards,
Walter
that could well be a reason, I dont know what % of lines are connected direct vs a cabinet, but it could be the reason.
I should note all the immediate properties close to the exchange are mostly commercial as its a city centre, I would be surprised if many residental properties do not go through a cabinet.
and yes narborough is one of the various surrounding exchanges that is FTTC enabled, its a largish village.
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@ chrisalys,
Just to add some more confusion you'll see at:-
http://www.idnet.net/support/fibreavailability.jsp
That Narborough only has about 10,500 premises but is due for FTTC by December 2010.
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EMNARBO
Perhaps it's that Virgin or somebody else are planning an upgrade there ?
In your case, the only obstacle I've noticed are exchanges with a lot of lines connected directly to the exchange rather than through a PCP.
Kind regards,
Walter
that could well be a reason, I dont know what % of lines are connected direct vs a cabinet, but it could be the reason.
I should note all the immediate properties close to the exchange are mostly commercial as its a city centre, I would be surprised if many residental properties do not go through a cabinet.
and yes narborough is one of the various surrounding exchanges that is FTTC enabled, its a largish village.
Patience is the key if your waiting for FTTC. OR is in the very early stages of what will be the future of broadband and how we use it at home and office. I am sure everyone remembers the early days of ADSL, i waited for 4 years for it to hit my exchange area when the exchange serving the other half of my town was one of the first for ADSL and is now FTTC ready. If you have a BT Wholesale competitor such as Virgin Media operating in your area you are more likely to be one of the first FTTC areas.
The speed of Metallic Path ADSL is dependant on Loss Insertion @300khz (measured in db's) For the vast majority, your metallic pair from exchange to pcp (e-side) is going to take the largest chunk of your db loss (pair material, conductor poundage and distance have the largest impact on loss) FTTC is going to take this loss away giving anyone an improvement in speed (including rural!) An example would be an end user with 78db loss over an 7.5km line (5km e-side and 2.5km d-side) take away the e-side using FTTC and they may have a 25db loss, 15meg would now be realistic (better than 1.2meg)
As far as OR replacing e side cables to improve ADSL speed, NO CHANCE! This would break every rule in the OFCOM book. I am also sure with the sky high price of copper, fibre is a far more economic option.
If OR upgraded every PCP to FTTC in a short time period they could never keep up with the demand placed on the engineering workforce. Remember ADSL wasnt always 'self-install' although this could happen for FTTC in the future along with VOIP as standard.
my exchange was within the first 20 outside of london to be adsl enabled back in 1999, the other city centre exchange next to it was the 3rd non london exchange enabled in nov 1999.
this area does also have VM.
whilst OR are in early stages of physical rollout work they have actually announced the majority of exchanges that will be upgraded, also I have had confirmation direct from the BT boardroom my exchange will not be enabled. I dont think replcing copper breaks ofcom rules, but its simply something that is a waste of time as its high cost and obselete technology, but BT are a company that make decisions that baffle various people.
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The IDNET site's list goes upto 2011 but the first rollout which will see 40% of the UK FTTC ready is due for completion by 2012 and 66% by 2015. I would be suprised if any final decisons have been made on who gets it and when, beyond 2012. Look at Cornwall Council who have pushed themselves up the list by tendering a contract for a single coms supplier, won by BT, FTTC on its way.
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My FTTC line went in yesterday and so far testing is very good. I get full sync rate on up and down so have the max IP profile speedtest's reflect this nicely. Pings are on par with my ADSL and Virgin connection's, the extra upload is very nice though :)
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@ BlueBeanBandit,
Cornwall are to be praised indeed for being proactive.
However I suspect they are better off than many UK areas as I believe they are classed as a deprived area and thus eligible for larger EC Grants.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hmm. Out of the blue I got an update email from BT about the non-availability of Infinity.
They still have a list here: http://tinyurl.com/yhvqhal (http://tinyurl.com/yhvqhal) of "indicative, subject to change" dates
which shows my exchange getting Infinity on 31st Dec 2010.
But on a new fancy checker from this page: http://tinyurl.com/399eduu (http://tinyurl.com/399eduu) my exchange
is not listed at all - and these dates go out to 31st March 2011.
Isn't BT great? Anybody else had their hopes of getting fibre dashed?
Whoops - I sort of take it all back. Just looking at the map again to see if my sister in Kent
will get fibre I see that my exchange has moved from the East of England to the
South East of England, but still has the 31st Dec 2010 date. Seems that BT don't quite know
where their exchanges are. Else they're going to relocate the exchange by about 50 miles.
Cheers,
Peter