Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: NorthernLad on August 14, 2018, 04:35:29 PM
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Hi All,
First time poster so please be kind :)
Does anyone have any examples of FTTPoD costs that have been quoted since the recent price changes? I am hoping to soon be in a position to actually ask for a quote via Cerberous Networks as my FTTC cabinet is scheduled for installation within the next 6 months.
Im not sure if I'm being a little naive in thinking the costs to deploy FTTPoD will be not be unreasonable as I live on a new build estate with only 300m of some nice fresh unclogged ducts between my home and the location of new fttc cabinet. There are also a number of homes that may be able share the cost if we group together.
From what I hear however the build costs can be ridiculous? but I hoping/expecting thats due to requirements to dig or pull fibre up telegraph poll's etc. rather than what should be a simple cable pull?
Im more than willing to take the 12month hit on the inflated monthly costs, but the cost of a PON node or whatever kit is required and the blow/pull of a fibre 300m cant be that much surely?
I have no example costs at the minute so just wondering if anyone can provide any reference costs they're aware of?
Thanks!
EDIT - Just found an excellent article in another group (now suspect this post is in the wrong group, so apologies)
Great writeup here https://www.amvia.co.uk/blog/fttp-on-demand-costs-installation which basically gives me hope and also no hope! I guess its just a case of waiting until our cabinet is upgraded and requesting a price!
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Yeah, it's a good article based on data they've collected. Unlike before, the estimates don't necessarily always appear to scale with distance (though it is clear that those further away are more likely to be charged more because of the actual distance, work associated with ducts, etc.).
There was recently a discussion at thinkbroadband where people shared their estimates (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4586020-fttpod-unreal-pricing.html (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4586020-fttpod-unreal-pricing.html)).
What should be understood is that these are just estimates. There is evidence to suggest that the costs can be much, much lower than the estimates if you are willing to proceed with a survey costing you £250 ex. VAT. I have not heard of it being more than the estimate.
If you ask for an estimate from a provider that offers FTTPoD, you will be provided with the estimated cost and the amount of premises that will be able to get FTTP because of your build. However, if you can collaborate with your neighbours and get them to submit orders to link with yours then the good thing is that the government has the Gigabit Broadband Voucher Scheme (more info at https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk/ (https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk/)) which apparently each applicant can use to put towards the cost of the installation (£500 for residential, and £3,000 for businesses). Furthermore, each premises under a linked order will give a discount of £700 ex. VAT so the more neighbours submitting linked orders, the better.
Of course, this requires collaboration between you and your neighbours. The provider you ask to generate an estimate may be able to provide you with the addresses covered by fibre DP which would make neighbour hunting a lot easier. But you would still need to confront them. :D
One thing to note is the cost associated with line rental/service costs during the first 12 months as it is rather expensive, and 12 months is the minimum term. As an example, using Cerberus (https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broadband/cerberus-fttp-and-gfast (https://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/connectivity-broadband/cerberus-fttp-and-gfast)) during the on demand period would cost £120.00 a month (for 300/30 Mbps); some providers may be more expensive. Everybody in the linked order will be subject to this cost for the 12 months. However, after the 12 months, it will be classed as native FTTP which means you could move to a different provider or re-grade to a native product offering (which is certainly going to be a lot cheaper).
I do not want to go into detail with my estimate but considering the amount of premises covered by the rollout it would certainly work out as next to nothing to build the network if every neighbour chipped in. However, I know that the desire for it is low due to the demographics, and considering every single one of them should be able to get the full or near full 80/20 Mbps if they wanted then it just would not make sense for most of them (I think a lot are probably still ADSLx ???). And I know that the ongoing monthly charges would probably be a bit of a hit until it becomes native.
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Hi All,
First time poster so please be kind :)
Welcome to the Kitz forum. :)
I see that re0 has already given you some very good advice. There is one comment I would like to make as a result of your reference to a cabinet for a G.993.2 (VDSL2; FTTC) service. The actual cabinet location will not be relevant for a FTTPoD installation. The fact that one exists (or will exist) is just an indicator that an aggregation node is present somewhere in the wider area. It is from the aggregation node that a FTTPoD service build will occur and thus the distance may be far greater than you are expecting.
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???
Looks like I overlooked the aggregation node. :-X Usually it's not too far away from a fibre-enabled cabinet. Though I am not sure typically how far away it can be.
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The will be N cabinets per aggregation node. If the location of each of those N cabinets is known then there is the possibility that the aggregation node will be located equidistant from each of them. So consider the geometric mean, factor in discrete locational environmental obstructions and, eventually, one will have a probable area from which the FTTPoD build would start. :(
Perhaps someone will "come up" with a viable method for determining where an aggregation node is located within an area of interest. (Other than lifting each footway joint-box cover and looking into the murk contained therein.) Ground penetrating radar, perhaps? :)
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Ground penetrating radar, perhaps? :)
Just make sure it doesn't emit EMI over frequencies used by 17a. :P But feel free to distrupt 19-106 MHz used by G.fast. :lol:
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I've not read this thread (no time at the mo), but you may find this thread useful as well
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4595298-fttpod-desktop-quotes-and-final-prices.html?page=1&vc=1
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Some excellent info guys! thanks very much. especially around the vouchers, I'll be sure to do my homework on that.
I know where the aggregation node is (I used to have access to Openreach duct map tool), its not too far, probably an extra 500m but it does leave the estate onto the main road and into the centre of the village which means the ducts may not be as good as they are on this estate. I has assumed there must be some sort of PON infrastructure at the cabinet as FTTPoD is only shown on the availability checker to those hooked upto a FTTC cabinet.
Is it possible to order FTTPoD without being linked to a FTTC cabinet? If so I'll contact Cerberous tomorrow!
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Once again I will stress that the physical cabinet is not involved in a FTTPoD build. It is just a "logical marker" that FTTPoD is (theoretically) possible.
From the aggregation node, a fibre is run towards the ultimate location. Further splitters may be involved. At the appropriate location a "fibre" distribution point (DP) is installed. It will likely be a connectorised block terminal (CBT). The final feed will then be run from the CBT into the property.
From your approximation of the distances, you believe the distance to be around 800 metres. As to the cost . . . :shrug2:
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Once again I will stress that the physical cabinet is not involved in a FTTPoD build. It is just a "logical marker" that FTTPoD is (theoretically) possible.
Thanks burakkucat, yeah I fully understand that, our PCP cab is new (circa 2 years old) long story but typical new build developer only dropped in copper to the new homes and we aren't included in the BDUK scope. OR have finally realised FTTC would be profitable here and we have just progressed to the survey stage for FTTC (still amazed they haven't just gone FTTP with all the recent news coverage about targets but whatever!) they have just painted the location of the cabinet and bt/power ducting on the streets so guessing we should be less than 6months from a deployment.
All that said I'm really wanting more than FTTC, and willing to pay for FTTPoD if its not going to cost mega fortunes. I operate my consultancy business from home so based on some quick reading I'm thinking this may be doable if I can determine I'm eligible for the 3k's worth of vouchers, all depends on what estimate I get back and how many other homes i can persuade to signup...
I'm going to give Cerberous a call tomorrow and see what they say anyway. Thanks for all the information guys - very helpful!
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I'm going to give Cerberous a call tomorrow and see what they say anyway. Thanks for all the information guys - very helpful!
You are welcome. :)
Please keep us updated with any developments.
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Initial free desktop quotes from OpenReach have gone up considerably under the new pricing.
However if you go on to pay £250? for a full survey most are finding this comes down quite a bit.
The prices are still considerably higher under the new pricing than the old. This is primarily because you used to pay part of the build cost over the 3 year rental contact. This is front loaded on the build cost now.
FTTPod is not the recommended route for multiple/grouped orders though. They only just introduced this feature but ISP's are recommending against it.
There's a few very good reasons for this...
1. You can only "link" orders with those you share an existing copper DP with.
2. At any point any of the linked orders can pull out and your order will continue. You lose any discount from linked orders (£700) per order.
3. Every property on your copper DP gets absolutely free native OpenReach WBC-FTTP wether they link orders with you or not. If they know about this or find out then anticipate cancelled orders.
It is possible to find out who shares your copper DP.
OpenReach's CFP is recommended for self funding FTTP between a group of properties. If you can definitely get neighbours on board this route may be best.
I've no idea if OpenReach planning an FTTC cab would affect this or not?
Does FTTPoD show as available for you right now? It requires your line to be connected to an existing FTTC cabinet but doesn't require you to be close enough to order FTTC.
As for the location of the nearest Aggregation Node it may change (might get closer).
If they are installing new FTTC cabinets in the area they may have to deploy a new Agg Node.
These typically cover 3 or 4 FTTC cabinets but some of the larger infill projects require additional Agg Nodes.
The largest expense is if there are any unducted sections on the carriageway. OpenReach currently charge £112 per meter for this :o
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Initial free desktop quotes from OpenReach have gone up considerably under the new pricing.
However if you go on to pay £250? for a full survey most are finding this comes down quite a bit.
The prices are still considerably higher under the new pricing than the old. This is primarily because you used to pay part of the build cost over the 3 year rental contact. This is front loaded on the build cost now.
FTTPod is not the recommended route for multiple/grouped orders though. They only just introduced this feature but ISP's are recommending against it.
There's a few very good reasons for this...
1. You can only "link" orders with those you share an existing copper DP with.
2. At any point any of the linked orders can pull out and your order will continue. You lose any discount from linked orders (£700) per order.
3. Every property on your copper DP gets absolutely free native OpenReach WBC-FTTP wether they link orders with you or not. If they know about this or find out then anticipate cancelled orders.
This is very interesting, I hadn't thought of that at all, although I think with vouchers I couldn't see many people being involved anyway, if my business is eligible for 3,000 we'd only be allowed a max of 6 other properties if I've read the guidance correctly, and if something like that was to happen we'd have to deal with it at the time I suppose.
OpenReach's CFP is recommended for self funding FTTP between a group of properties. If you can definitely get neighbours on board this route may be best.
I've no idea if OpenReach planning an FTTC cab would affect this or not?
I've already tried this route, because OR were still apparently working with the developer we were blocked from this process and told to wait until their discussions had concluded. I guess there has been some movement on one of the sides to fund the FTTC rollout, I did try my best speaking with the developer to look at FTTP, but it would seem that fell on deaf ears which seems crazy to me as it almost certainly would have been cheaper than installing a cabinet in our case.
Does FTTPoD show as available for you right now? It requires your line to be connected to an existing FTTC cabinet but doesn't require you to be close enough to order FTTC.
No it doesn't, and I did think this was the case to be honest, I'll going to call Cerberous to have a discussion anyway and confirm probably tomorrow now. I'll let you know what they say.
Thanks
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If your exchange does FTTPoD then it will become available as soon as VDSL Multicast shows available.
Cerberus unfortunately can't get a quote or start an order until it is available but they will likely start a dialogue with you and give you some good advice.
I have no idea why they insist on being connected to an FTTC cabinet to order FTTPoD.
It makes sense for making it available on a large scale on the dsl checker.
Why they won't make exceptions and allow you to order it if you are near the Agg Node without FTTC I have no idea.
The PCP/FTTC cabinet is not involved.
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2. At any point any of the linked orders can pull out and your order will continue. You lose any discount from linked orders (£700) per order.
I am pretty sure that the one order being cancelled will result in all other linked orders being cancelled. My estimate email told me:
If one order is cancelled this will cancel all the linked orders
3. Every property on your copper DP gets absolutely free native OpenReach WBC-FTTP wether they link orders with you or not. If they know about this or find out then anticipate cancelled orders.
That is a true fact and anyone aware will probably be detered from financially investing in something that can just freeload off. Would be a bit unfair of them, but if you're desperate/you need FTTP then you're going to do it anyway if you can afford it.
Anyway, I hope you can find a solution and get FTTP installed. I did actually forget about the Openreach CFP (https://communityfibre.openreach.co.uk/ (https://communityfibre.openreach.co.uk/)) until it was mentioned by j0hn in this topic, but it seems you've already tried this without success.
This is very interesting, I hadn't thought of that at all, although I think with vouchers I couldn't see many people being involved anyway, if my business is eligible for 3,000 we'd only be allowed a max of 6 other properties if I've read the guidance correctly, and if something like that was to happen we'd have to deal with it at the time I suppose.
I think you perhaps misunderstood. The vouchers are put towards the installation, and can be amalgamated to cover the build costs. So each business permises can get a voucher for £3,000 and each resedential premises £500. Those vouchers have no bearing on the maximum number of premises. The number of properties covered from the network build will vary, but as j0hn said everyone on the current copper DP will be elgible for WBC-FTTP (native FTTP) regardless of whether they submit a linked order.
I do not know what the maximum number of subscibers per fibre DP is, but I believe it to be 32 (I could be wrong because I am trying to work from memory). Though from examples I have seen on the web, most figures have been single digit and perhaps a few over 10, with only a few exceeding the teens.
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Spoken with Cerberous Networks
My property is coming up as a fail, as FTTPoD is not available at my property. So pretty much as expected, I need to wait for FTTC Cabinet to be installed.
Seems ridiculous but it is what it is!
Didn't give any indication as to price, but suspect I am eligible for the business voucher and if I can get a few properties onboard could be doable if the quote comes back at with a reasonable cost.
Thanks for all the info.
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A word of warning, the initial desktop quotes (a computer generated quote based on poor records) seem to be much much higher than any eventually fully surveyed quote.
Such a high quote may be enough to frighten you or a few neighbours away.
If you really are serous about throwing down some hard £s then I recommend ignoring the desktop quote and paying £250 for a proper survey.
This thread (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4595298-fttpod-desktop-quotes-and-final-prices.html) discusses the difference between the desktop quotes and full survey quotes.
OpenReach got burned with the fixed band pricing. They appear to be being overly cautious with the desktop quotes to ensure it doesn't happen again.
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I couldn't find any references to you mentioning that FTTPoD actually is available at your exchange. I suppose that you have checked? Checking at https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm (https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm) and entering your locality will return your exchange and applicable information.
Either way, them returning with saying it is not available was to be expected. Give it some time. As long as FTTPoD is available at your exchange, as j0hn said:
If your exchange does FTTPoD then it will become available as soon as VDSL Multicast shows available.
So just wait for that cabinet to be installed!
Best of luck to you.
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I got FTTPoD installed under the old pricing model last year. However a word of caution: you've got to bear in mind that even if you are connected to a FTTC cabinet, its not 100% guaranteed that Openreach will offer you FTTPoD - as was the case initially for my property. However, my ISP (FluidOne) are apparently one of Openreach's biggest business customers (they're a business only CP) and when they enquired with OR, they magically enabled my address for FTTPoD on the BT DSL checker. I'm not sure if Cerberus have the same influence with OR but its something worth remembering.
As for
https://www.amvia.co.uk/blog/fttp-on-demand-costs-installation
I would take what's written on there with an extra large pinch of salt as the desktop quotes under the new/current pricing model don't reflect the true costs confirmed after the survey. As others have already said, if you're deadly serious about getting FTTPoD then you should really get a survey done to get a true idea of the costs involved.
Good luck! :)