Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: jamesc123 on July 24, 2011, 06:59:44 PM
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Hi,
I am considering buying an NTE5 ADSL Faceplate and Cat5e cable.
Just to confirm I have this correct: I would hard-wire, from the back of the faceplate connections, A&B for ADSL (using orange pair?) and 2&5 for phone (blue pair), to a hardwired extension socket, that has obviously ADSL and BT slots, to the relevant connections on the back of the extension socket? And this would mean I could plug the RJ11 from the router and a telephone straight into the extension socket and all's good?
But I can only find extension sockets that have ADSL and phone, that are also filtered ones. Seeing as the line is filtered at the master socket, surely the extension could simply be a plain unfiltered one, that takes the phone pair and the ADSL pair?
Many thanks! Hope this all made sense!
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I don't see the point. :-X
What are you trying to achieve and what other sockets and phone-connected equipment do you have?
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oh sorry I didn't say. basically at the moment I only have the master socket working because of a faulty faceplate and the old unconnected wiring in place is very very old. so I wanted to do a modernization
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Hi James C,
I would try very hard to wire the modem directly off the ADSL Nation filtered faceplate (or the BT equivalent). If necessary buy a long screened RJ11 cable also from ADSL Nation. You are then free to wire telephone sockets as you wish. Note also that many use DECT cordless phones, separated from the modem and cables, to avoid the need for wired extension phones.
Kind regards,
Walter
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hi walter,
So I would get a really short rj11-rj11 cable, plug in the router there at the master socket. Then wire a cat5e cable from near that area to upstairs where computer is, and termiate both ends with neat wall sockets? and connect router-socket and pc-other socket with really short patch ethernet cables?
cheers
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Yes, that's much better. ;D
Though don't worry about ethernet cable lengths, anything up to 100m of Cat5e gives NO degradation as it's well within spec. :graduate:
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Hi
Are you planning to connect after the old master socket ? or are you actually going to replace the old master socket ?.If the latter then be aware that BT will NOT be happy to say the least!.
quote from Kitz You are NOT allowed to replace any old style master sockets with an NTE5 socket yourself, and this should only be performed by a BT Openreach engineer. Failure to obey these rules may result in prosecution and/or a fine by BT.
Read more: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm#ixzz1T3u0QDR3
Regards Jeff
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Hi James,
Just to clarify, I was suggesting buying one of these which you can quite legally fit as you are only replacing the customer's side of the NTE5.
http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=105
You could use a short RJ11 cable or alternatively if you can route the cable around walls and skirting boards you could still get a longer say 10 m one.
The shorter one is obviously a simpler solution. Ethernet cable is quite easy to fit into RJ45 ethernet wall sockets which would also allow you to pass the cable through holes in walls. If you use this method I would fit at least dual sockets with two cables in case you need a spare at some stage. Although more expensive you can get quite neat 4 gang faceplates here:-
http://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/acatalog/info_008_001_011_01.html
Note that you will also need an insertion tool such as the CableMonkey one here:-
IDC Punchdown Tool
Ref: 00A-007-003-00
Kind regards,
Walter
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If you're using the adsl face plate on the nte then any extention wiring terminated on the back of the plate will not have broadband on it, any extention wiring to feed a router would need to be fed from the dsl output on the front of the plate.
The ones carried by Openreach engineers are know as data extention kits. come in 5,10,30m cable lengths, one end had the plug to fit in the dsl output on the front of the face plate, the other end terminates in a "data socket" which is an extention socket with the same dsl style socket on the front as opposed to a normal telephony style plug.
Cat5 style cables have more twists in the pairs of wires so making it a little less venerable to picking up nearby data noise. At bt we were tld this should be cleated in, never to use staples, the reason being if the staple is tight, it compresses down on the cable so causing little interference pick-up points along the cable (apart from giving a bad pin cushion finish to the cable) As i could adjust my stapler to gently fire the staples to just touch the outer insulation it was ok. I alweays prefered staples as it looks so much neater than cleats.
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If you're using the adsl face plate on the nte then any extention wiring terminated on the back of the plate will not have broadband on it,
That's not correct.
Most faceplates available have both filtered and unfiltered outputs ON THE BACK. 8)
(I have seen one model that didn't but not recently)
In fact for the ADSLnation model above the description states:
"IDC Terminals on the rear allow connection of hardwired telephone extensions, both filtered and unfiltered terminals are provided"
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@ Hp,
I think Ezzer is talking about the BT SSFP type of faceplate and I'm reasonably sure that doesn't have the split IDC connectors like the ADSL Nation one does.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Even those, the more recent ones anyway, now have both I believe.
(and the ADSLnation one was specifically referred to ;) )
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@ HP,
As I believe Ezzer has joined us (I.e. me), we must be kind to all wrinklies and especially to those who know a vast amount of the GPO & BT history !
Kind regards,
Walter
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I havnt seen another type of face plate with 2 idc outputs on the back so far. I've been out of the loop for about a year so I'll be missing out on many new developments. So I'll bow to HP's info there. :graduate:
I was typing that based on the ssfp as fitted by bt. I think part of the logic of the data extention kit pluggin into the dsl output on the front plate is that it gives aquick way to change the router location to the nte if needed. Bearing in mind some times the data kit wiring might pick up some performance affecting interference as well. I would always fit cable loose with the socket at the required spot to make sure it was working ok. It would be really annoying to spend all that time and work fitting it only to find you still need to got back to the nte in the end anyway.
The down side of the kit is you end up with the cable plugged in the front rather than being neater wired in via the back of the face plate
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They've been around for quite a while like that, several years I'd say in the case of ADSLnation.
(is the model name a clue? XTE-2005 ;) )
The BT ones are, I think, made by Clarity (or Pressac?) and (some of?) theirs were updated a while back, at least some of the ones you can buy as a consumer.
Obviously I don't know what models BT themselves buy, or whether both types are widely available.
The ones I've seen labelled as ADSL v1.0 have only had filtered IDC connectors on the back. But I've also seen that shape (with the curved top) with both outlets on the back. In fact I had one installed in my home until fairly recently but it's gone to a friend and I now have an ADSLnation model.
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I havnt seen another type of face plate with 2 idc outputs on the back so far.
Have a look at these, 3 more models all with "dual" outlets (Solwise, Pressac, Austin-Taylor):
http://www.solwise.co.uk/adsl_splitters-faceplates.htm
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Pressac are the major supplier to OR and also supply to Clarity, etc, (but without the OR logo).
I am looking at the 2011 version of the Pressac Product Directory. On page six is --
Centralised ADSL Filter
The Pressac Centralised ADSL Filter is designed
to plug into a standard NTE5 residential telephone
outlet. It provides a straight through connection
for DSL modem connection via a shuttered RJ45
socket as well as a filtered telephone socket and
filtered 3 way IDC connector for onward connection
of extension telephones. With the centralised filter
system, the filter becomes an integral part of the wall
socket providing a tidy looking fixture with the added
benefit of negating the need for subsequent extension
sockets to have microfilters plugged into them. A 6
way IDC version is also available that allows onward
connection of both telephone (filtered) and DSL
modem (unfiltered) wiring.
Description Part No. Dim (mm)
ADSL Centralised Filter 3 way IDC 60.10705.PS9XX 85 x 70 x 44
ADSL Centralised Filter 6 way IDC 60.10908.PS9XX 85 x 70 x 44
The 6 way version is what I purchased from Clarity and I believe the 3 way version is known by OR as an NTE2005. Both types can be recognised by the ADSL V1.0 marking at the front lower right.
On page seven is --
NTE5 VDSL Interstitial Filter
The Pressac VDSL Interstitial faceplate is designed to be
inserted between the main housing of a residential NTE5
telephone socket and the removable Customer Connection
Unit. It is designed to allow end user installation of a VDSL filter
solution without the need for removing any existing telephone
extension wiring.
• Hi specification low pass filter with rejection
characterised to 10 MHZ
• Connection of VDSL modem via shuttered RJ45
socket
• Onward filtered telephone connections provided
by existing CCU
• Hardwired modem connection possible by 2 way
IDC provision
Description Part No. Dim (mm)
NTE5 Interstitial VDSL Filter K60.11177 85 x 85 x 34
That is the item fitted by OR at the EU premise as part of a current-day FTTC installation. The initial batch did not have the "2 way IDC provision" and they are, I suspect, what Ezzer recalls. However with the present version, when the EU's lower front plate is removed, a filtered POTS pair can be run from the back of the lower front plate (as usual) and an unfiltered DSL pair can be run from the two exposed IDCs on the VDSL interstitial faceplate.
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They've been around for quite a while like that, several years I'd say in the case of ADSLnation.
(is the model name a clue? XTE-2005 ;) )
The ADSLnation devices are not electrically identical to the Pressac devices (built to BT / OR specifications). The former contain active components, whilst the latter are purely passive. ;D
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Yes indeed, I know that, it was part of their "marketing" for a while as the "active" filtering was supposedly better.
Never found any difference between the types myself in practice though.
PS Thanks for the info re Pressac :graduate: , shows how easy it is to be confused by all this.
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PS Thanks for the info re Pressac :graduate: , shows how easy it is to be confused by all this.
You are welcome. :) In the short time that I have made these fora one of my daily stopping-off points, I have learnt a lot from the regular members -- you included, HP. When I know that I am in possession of facts which can be added to an ongoing discussion, I will do so. That way the collective knowledge base of Kitz' site is enhanced. (And long may it continue.) ;D
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we must be kind to all wrinklies
I've had a bus pass for a while now! :P
Anyway, we do seem to be digressing somewhat from the original question.....
It would be nice to hear from the originator what progress they've made on decisions or implementation.
(or answer more questions)
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ok thanks guys....
I read somewhere using a single Cat5e cable to run both a telephone line and ADSL line isn't good. That when the telephone rings the voltage goes up and could send something down the ADSL line and burnout the devices at the end of the ADSL line.
Does this happen in practise? Any one else used this sort of wiring
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Hi James,
I suggest burn-out is unlikely but crosstalk might reduce your modem's performance. If you are very concerned you might try Cat6 cable as that has more physical separation of the twisted pairs.
Kind regards,
Walter
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It all sounds a bit implausible really and frankly too much work as you'll need to separate the pairs and put your own plugs on the end.
And NEITHER Cat5e or Cat6 use shielded pairs as far as I know, they're just twisted somewhat differently.
Remember phone and ADSL signals travel down the same wire anyway and normally don't interfere with each other at all, so it's just anything you introduce that is likely to be a problem.
Personally I'd extend phone and broadband with their own separate cables and wouldn't use Cat anything as it has far too many pairs and is bulky (especially Cat6).
I'd use normal phone cable for the phone (and NOT connect the bell wire) and shielded cable for broadband, though realistically normal CW1308 (twisted pair) phone cable is probably good enough for that too.
(but then I also use CW1308 for my LAN cabling at home - it's fine for 100mbps!)
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Ok. I am thinking that 2 seperate wires, 1 for phone and 1 for ADSL to the router, would be better.
But I am also thinking it might simply be better to put the router near to the master socket and plug the RJ11 straight into the front of the faceplate instead. Although it is far more convenient having the router upstairs where it is now.
So for the 2 wires I should use CW.... standard phone cable? Both with 2 pairs? Such as this: http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=96 (http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=96)
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But I am also thinking it might simply be better to put the router near to the master socket and plug the RJ11 straight into the front of the faceplate instead.
That's always better, after all you can then run Cat5e (Cat6 is total overkill) to your PC or a network hub wherever you want.
ADSLnation used to sell shielded ADSL cable but don't seem to any more. :no:
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That's always better, after all you can then run Cat5e (Cat6 is total overkill) to your PC or a network hub wherever you want.
ADSLnation used to sell shielded ADSL cable but don't seem to any more. :no:
You mean like this? http://www.clarity.it/xcart/home.php?cat=253
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HP is 100% right. The phone and broadband frequencies travel large distances together from the exchange to the EU's premises, on a lot less 'twisted pairs' than any CAT cabling. Some of your thoughts seem to be over-engineering James, with little or no gain to be made. Just an observation, not meant in a condescending manner or anything.
Go with your last idea of siting the router next to the Master Socket for best results and no cost. ;D
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You mean like this? http://www.clarity.it/xcart/home.php?cat=253
Well a little less "overstated" maybe, just plain white and in various lengths. But the same basic spec under the bling.
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Pressac have launched a new retail website that sells their centralised filters online - http://www.slowinternet.co.uk (http://www.slowinternet.co.uk).
They sell a standard ADSL filter and a premium filter, which offers enhanced noise reduction, is easy fit (no rewiring of the telephone lines) and VDSL enabled (as well as filtering ADSL and ADSL2). A bit more pricey than the passive ADSL filtering alternatives, but I believe this is the only place you can buy the premium filter unless you are BT or OR! The premium filter slots into the NTE5 (remove standard faceplate, insert the filter and reattach the faceplate). Product details can be found at http://www.slowinternet.co.uk/products/premium-centralised-filter (http://www.slowinternet.co.uk/products/premium-centralised-filter)
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A bit more pricey than the passive ADSL filtering alternatives,
Sorry Jason but I shall dispute your implied comment (by using the word passive in the above) that the "Premium Centralised Filter" is an active device. It is not. :no: It is a passive device based on the concept of nothing more than an interstitial filter. :-X
It is, in fact, nothing more than the device shown as the "Broadband Accelerator" (and marketed by BT / OR, a few years ago, as the iPlate) with the filtering components of the "Standard Centralised Filter" added to it! ::)
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burakkucat - Apologies, I may have my passive / active terminology wrong. My understanding is (and I'm not a technical expert), that their Premium central filter is a completely new product that BT intend to use for FTTC roll-out, but also offers filtering benefits to non VDSL customers too.
If you go to the "help me choose" section of their website http://www.slowinternet.co.uk/product-selector (http://www.slowinternet.co.uk/product-selector), it does compare the broadband accelerator (i-plate), vs standard ADSL filter vs Premium VDSL filter.
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Just a brief follow-up note from "The Cattery". All filters, be they plug-in micro-filters or replacement front panels for an NTE5/A -- whatever their physical presentation -- only filter the telephone socket from the incoming pair. The data socket is connected directly to the incoming pair without any intervening circuitry.
:)
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I have just fitted a filtered faceplate to my master socket, and disappointingly only produced a small speed improvement. Putting that to one side, my son tells me that my voice line now sounds 'tinny/metallic' and I wondered if leaving the existing filters on the voice equipment is causing this problem? Do I need to remove them?
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I wondered if leaving the existing filters on the voice equipment is causing this problem? Do I need to remove them?
No. In principle you don't need them, but they can sometimes give improved separation of the voice side from the ADSL side. This is particularly the case with Sky boxes, which can sometimes interfere with the ADSL.
I can't really explain the tinny sound (assuming that you haven't changed telephones of course). I suppose you could try removing/replacing the filters to see if it makes any difference to the sound.
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Thanks Eric. Maybe it was the Iron tablets I'm on.................... ;D
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Thanks Eric. Maybe it was the Iron tablets I'm on.................... ;D
Perhaps we ought to add that to the database of odd explanations. ;D
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Mike,
My understanding is that you don't need separate micro-filters on any of your telephone extensions if you filter the broadband signal at the NTE. I guess to fit the ADSL filter you will have had to re-wire the telephone extensions at the NTE (it might be worth checking these connections if voice call quality has gone down). Luckily the VDSL centralised filter from Pressac that I fitted didn't involve any rewiring! One last plug for them (honestly, I'm not on sales commission!) http://www.slowinternet.co.uk/products/premium-centralised-filter (http://www.slowinternet.co.uk/products/premium-centralised-filter)
With regard to speed, it took a few days for my filter to make a difference to speed (I think the telephone exchange needs to "balance" the line or something), but I did get pretty instant improvements in the line reliability (i.e. not dropping out so often)
Jason