Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: MartinGoose on August 18, 2011, 07:16:32 PM
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I have been having ADSL2+ connectivity issues for the last couple of months which I believe are due to REIN. I have eliminated all possible causes due to poor internal telecoms wiring and have operated all significant electrical equipment in my house to see if I could cause the 9-10 dB drops in SNR that are evidence of the problem.
I have recently collaborated with two neighbours (2 doors away and 5 doors away, both nearer the street cabinet) and made simultaneous RouterStats recordings for an extended period. All three traces show similar variations in SNR in terms of timing and shape.
Working through my ISP, I have now had 4 visits from Openreach who now seem to be convinced that it is a REIN issue. Visit 5 is tomorrow!
I have read the REIN page on Kitz and the original post on which it is based and have had some success with the MW radio approach. Inter-station noise on 612kHz goes up substantially when RouterStats sees an SNR drop. I live in the NW of England so the French do not intervene!
It occurs to me that the MW aerial in the radio is directional and could be used for direction finding. I can certainly detect a clear minimum point when I rotate the radio. Is this correct or am I deluding myself!?
PS You can see the extent of my problems at:
<http://www.thegoosefamily.plus.com/Rx_Noise_margin_(dB).jpg>
updated every hour (if my connection is up!).
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It occurs to me that the MW aerial in the radio is directional and could be used for direction finding. I can certainly detect a clear minimum point when I rotate the radio. Is this correct or am I deluding myself!?
You're not deluding yourself at all. When the radio is turned to the direction of minimum interference, the source of the interference can be taken to be somewhere on a line along the length of the radio. So if you do this from two or more positions you'll be able, with luck, to work out the source of the interference by triangulation. It's not quite as easy as that of course, but you do stand a chance of working out where it comes from.
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It occurs to me that the MW aerial in the radio is directional and could be used for direction finding. I can certainly detect a clear minimum point when I rotate the radio. Is this correct or am I deluding myself!?
Martin,
You are absolutely correct and there is no delusion on your part. :) If you had a suitable scaled map, an accurate compass and sufficient time to spare, you could make a start in finding the approximate location of the noise source.
Here's a typical procedural list:
1) When the RFI / REIN is active, tune the radio to approximately 612 kHz ensuring that the noise signal is clear and distinct.
2) From an actual location that can be clearly defined on your map, slowly rotate the radio though 360 degrees. Locate the minimum (or null spot) and make a note of the bearing of the long length of the radio.
3) Proceed to a sufficiently distant location and repeat the above. If the bearing you then measure is very similar to that measured above, ignore it and return to your starting point. Now go the same approximate distance in a different direction and try again. All being well, you will have a completely different bearing.
4) Repeat step 3) until you have three distinctly different bearings.
5) Assuming the role of the navigator in a WWII Avro Lancaster heavy bomber ;) plot those three bearings on your map. It is highly unlikely that they will all intersect at the same point. (If they did, I would be suspicious of the three bearings!) You should now have a relatively small triangle as a target area.
6) Search that defined area systematically with your radio. Depending upon the environment, you may be able to define an even smaller area or, if very lucky, a building, lamp post, etc.
7) Present your findings to your ISP / CP and ask them to pass it on to OR for further investigation.
Just one other important thing to remember, please keep this thread updated with your progress. And good luck!
[Oops! Eric's fingers were the faster.]
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Just one other important thing to remember, please keep this thread updated with your progress. And good luck!
Noise arrived this morning before Openreach in the afternoon. I had some limited success with the direction finding approach using some satelite photography from Bing on a clipboard. Compass not used, just aligning the map to the ground and my ruler parallel to the radio in the null position.
From some locations I got a very clear null position. In other locations there was no apparent null position. The latter positions appeared to be when I was close to the route of the underground telecoms cable. Can it re-radiate interference?
By the time Openreach turned up, the major noise had gone and has not reappeared since (obviously gone on a long weekend!). Openreach did find a minor source of continous REIN using a MW radio. This seems to be due to a new telecoms cable laid across the path of underground street lamp electrics and too close.
To be continued next week when Openreach come back on site (hopefully with more than a MW radio this time!)
PS You can grab a copy of 30 seconds of my REIN noise from
<www.thegoosefamily.plus.com/REIN_on_612kHz.mp3>
The guy from Openreach was mighty impressed when I played it to him!!
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In other locations there was no apparent null position. The latter positions appeared to be when I was close to the route of the underground telecoms cable. Can it re-radiate interference?
Most definitely. :) And as for detecting RFI / REIN, a radio, a scanning radio or a RF Tester 444B can all be appropriate.
I, too, am impressed with your recording. Just before the end of that clip, it seemed as if the pulse frequency suddenly increased. A wild guess -- could it be someone using an exercise treadmill? (Are you sure the source is not very close to home, your "Senior Management" partaking in her morning exercise routine, perhaps? :lol: )
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A wild guess -- could it be someone using an exercise treadmill? (Are you sure the source is not very close to home, your "Senior Management" partaking in her morning exercise routine, perhaps? :lol: )
That's an interesting idea about the treadmill, I will pass that on to Openreach. Definitely not one here!!
Just to avoid any possible embarrassment I have switched off all power in the bungalow at the consumer unit this morning as a test. The radio just carried on.
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Other thoughts -- Are you running Routerstats? If so, do you see a corresponding pulsing on the SNRM graph which matches the pulse frequency that you hear / we've heard via the radio? :-\
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Other thoughts -- Are you running Routerstats?
Yes. SNR/Sync rate plot uploaded hourly to:
<http://www.thegoosefamily.plus.com/Rx_Noise_margin_%28dB%29.jpg>
If so, do you see a corresponding pulsing on the SNRM graph which matches the pulse frequency that you hear / we've heard via the radio? :-\
No. Surely the pulsing frequency is too high for the sample rate of RouterStats.
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No. Surely the pulsing frequency is too high for the sample rate of RouterStats.
Of course you are absolutely correct. I had poorly written what I had intended to ask -- I should have typed "If so, do you see a corresponding perturbation of the SNRM graph at the corresponding time when you hear / heard the pulsing via the radio? :-\ "
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"If so, do you see a corresponding perturbation of the SNRM graph at the corresponding time when you hear / heard the pulsing via the radio? :-\ "
Yes. I have only heard the radio noise when the SNR has plunged. I have never heard the radio noise when the SNR has *not* plunged. However I have not been listening at the start or end of the noise/SNR drop to see if the timing is identical. I would be amazed if it were not identical.
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Yes. I have only heard the radio noise when the SNR has plunged. I have never heard the radio noise when the SNR has *not* plunged. However I have not been listening at the start or end of the noise/SNR drop to see if the timing is identical. I would be amazed if it were not identical.
Thank you. That is good enough for me. I suspect that in the days / weeks to come, you will learn all there is to know with regards to amateur DF'ing. Good luck! :)
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Just a point with the frech radio station. I mentioned that not that its a problem for dsl, Just that is provides a reference that your tuned close to 612Khz (the station i picked up was around 620KHz). some MW radios are not that well aligned to the frequency scale.
yes a MW antenna is directional. Its typicaly a coil of wire round a ferrite rod. the whole antenna is the size of a small pen and runs horizontaly side to side in a typical radio.
If you imagine a lenght of wire, and then imagine a radio signal like a circle around the wire. When the MW antenna is in line with this imaginary circle, so the circular line runs through the lenght of the antenna, then the antenna is most sensitive to the radio signal emmited from the wire. Actualy I've usualy had better results in locating a source with a radio rather than a 444b tester
The worst problem with REIN is you can often have the generating source of the noise anywhere, yet as it may be connected to the mains. It uses the local mains cable as an antenna. You pick up a similar strenght noise all along the lenght of a cable in a locality, yet the source is connected anywhere along the route. Worst exsample I came across was knocking out about 4-5 square kilometers. loudest at about 3 separate locations in there fron the power cables. Its was the one time I got to see a directional antenna with a spectral anilyser. Oh how i wished i could have used that kit on so many REIN faults. The source, turned out to be a 240v-110v converter not much bigger than a household plug.
usualy i've had REIN as mains derived. Either a mains dependant item or broacasting along mains cabling. if its coming from telecom cabling then its typicaly something like a faulty modem. Although I have come across a faulty printer which broadcast the noise into a pc then through the modem. That one was fun.
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Just a point with the frech radio station. I mentioned that not that its a problem for dsl, Just that is provides a reference that your tuned close to 612Khz (the station i picked up was around 620KHz). some MW radios are not that well aligned to the frequency scale.
I am using a Roberts R827 radio which tunes over FM, MW, LW and 13 SW bands. The tuned frequency display is LCD digital, although this does not guarantee accuracy.
Actualy I've usualy had better results in locating a source with a radio rather than a 444b tester
Only one Openreach tech. has turned up with a 444B so far. He said he had only just been trained in its use. I guess lots of experience is required to become fully effective in its use.
Worst exsample I came across was knocking out about 4-5 square kilometers.
My case is nothing like that size but is affecting properties at least 100 metres along the road where I live.
PS Thanks for all the other details.
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I got the 444 as part of my kit, the radio I had was my own which I bought to do the job.
The 444 is great to get a general picture of noises in the area or if your right on top of an emmiter. otherwise with overhead cabling in conjunction with the height measuring rod we used to check the heights of cables from the pole you could just be able to sometimes pinpoint if it was being emmited from one phone line more than others.
the main problem with the 444 I found was the meter would give the peak strenght of all the noise it was picking up. Not just the REIN noise. For half the county you'll just be seeing the MW transmissions from the main radio masts. Its like trying to home in on a conversation of someone in a crowded room whilst surrounded with lots of other loud conversations. the 444 is just like listening to a band on a radio. But youre not tuned in on one station, you get all the stations on that band at the same time
I was told it was designed to be used in conjunction with a directional antenna as well as the rubber duck syle one they all come with. problem was at the time there was only one directional in the company and no one knew where in the london area it was.
With experience using a MW radio you get to instinctivly learn which noises to home in on. And by knowing how the ferrite coil antenna works you can get a really good location of an emitter. Its very similar in part to using a "CAT and Genny" which is the kit used to locate underground utilities before road works or a dig. One secret is to keep the radio moving or rotating. Swing the radio from side to side at 90 degrees, and a swing verticaly 90 degrees. the attitiude of the antenna inside gives a good directional clue.
The antenna is about the size of 2 aa batterys in line. it picks up a signal off a wire at right angles to the wire. Its at its least sensitive pointing at the wire or pointing in line with the wire.
The worse problem was when you pick up the same amount of signal all along a power cable route, so then its a case of where along that route is a property connected which has somewhere in it is the generator of the noise.
Although I would say about one third of the sources I have found to be the problem is flat screen monitors. beyond that off the top of my head: Routers, fax machines, low energy light bulb, pc printer, UPS, voltage converters, tv, fridge frezzer, 4 way mains extention, desk lamp, welding equipment, pond pump, gas rig service ship, prs light, alarm panel.
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Wow, great read that Ezzer. Having just recently become officially REIN trained, it's good to read feedback as the training course is 3hrs of slideshows stating what REIN is, not how to find it. TBH, I don't think there is a specific way to locate REIN, it just takes time, perserverance and a bit of luck. ;D
The biggest case of REIN we had was knocking out an entire village (quite populated as well). The source was located to a switching unit on top of a street light on a bypass approx 5 miles away. I didn't find that (wasn't trained back then) as we had to get the specialist REIN team based in Manchester in for that one, but I did 'shadow' them on that job.
Set top boxes, baby monitors and aerial boosters are also notorious sources of REIN.
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set top boxes forgot about those, and yes i do remember a suspect aerial booster in a leaky roof space.
If you use a CAT, don't know if youve noticed the lump/bulge at the foot of the cat. Its a ferrite coil antenna. just mentioned it as knowing that it may make using a MW radio for REIN that little bit clearer. And for tracing some along d/w's its similar to a cat but using a 444 with a rods measuring. With REIN transmitted down O/H plant that really speeds things up
Although I think its time I made a bit of a confession. When on the task where about 4-5 square kilometers where knocked out. A guy from Martlesham came up with a spectral anyliser. And another guy from london who had something to do with setting up the REIN course. He asked me a question to which my answer shocked him.
"How long ago did you do the REIN course ?" "I didn't !" :blush:
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And another guy from london who had something to do with setting up the REIN course. He asked me a question to which my answer shocked him.
"How long ago did you do the REIN course ?" "I didn't !" :blush:
:lol:
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set top boxes forgot about those, and yes i do remember a suspect aerial booster in a leaky roof space.
If you use a CAT, don't know if youve noticed the lump/bulge at the foot of the cat. Its a ferrite coil antenna. just mentioned it as knowing that it may make using a MW radio for REIN that little bit clearer. And for tracing some along d/w's its similar to a cat but using a 444 with a rods measuring. With REIN transmitted down O/H plant that really speeds things up
Although I think its time I made a bit of a confession. When on the task where about 4-5 square kilometers where knocked out. A guy from Martlesham came up with a spectral anyliser. And another guy from london who had something to do with setting up the REIN course. He asked me a question to which my answer shocked him.
"How long ago did you do the REIN course ?" "I didn't !" :blush:
Ha ha ha ..... you're a man after my own heart Ezzer. I too have performed REIN tasks when not trained, and ended up on the REIN distribution lists !!! I used to get called approx once a month and asked to shoot off to some far distant town/city to remedy the fault. As I say, I'm now officially capable (apparently ;)) of picking these types of job up.
I do indeed use the 'Cat and Genny' as part of my job, although it's getting less and less as I seem to be permanently picking BB work up. Yes, I did notice the bulge and thought it was just a poor manufacturing job. We were told on the course about the measuring rods and 444b method, thank you though for mentioning it. ;D
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Yay, nice to hear some feedback gets through to the REIN training. Some of the guys thought I looked a loon using the rods like that.
Thats how I got on to REIN too. I was given the 444 to use after a while. used to leave it in the dsl stores cupboard in case anyone else wanted to use it. But no one wanted to touch REIN with a barge pole, so I ended up doing them all.
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Fascinating read for the intelligent non-specialist! I hope I qualify for this description.
In respect of my REIN fault, Openreach were back on site yesterday to investigate the particular premises that was identified before the weekend. I was not involved initially, but Openreach reported afterwards that they had located the source of the REIN. It was the power supply for a Belkin USB hub. Once this was taken out of use my SNR margin improved by about 2 dB.
However my problems were intermittent not continuous, and the SNR drop could be 10 dB. Clearly Openreach found a fault, but I don't think it is the fault that is doing the serious damage! Time will tell.
After Openreach departed I spoke to my neighbour and we did some 'testing' of the faulty unit. We plugged it in, in my house, and used my radio on 612 kHz. There was clear interference but the sound was entirely different to the recording I made previously and linked to above in this thread. The volume also appeared to be much lower, but this could just be a different setting on the volume control on my radio. When I checked my Routerstats traces, I had lost 2 dB of SNR during the test.
I also looked back and saw the effect of the Openreach testing in my neighbours house earlier in the day. Temporary 2 dB gain when they switched off at the consumer unit followed by a permanent 2 dB gain when the offending item was taken out of use.
So a small step in the right direction but I await the next serious outage and further 'fun and games'!
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Thank you for the update, Martin. As you say, a step in the right direction.
As the signal produced by that PSU was not identical to the "treadmill", there still is a source of intermittent REIN "out there".
Have you ensured that your ISP / CP have noted that fact in the log for this issue?
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Have you ensured that your ISP / CP have noted that fact in the log for this issue?
Oh, yes!!!
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Im subscribing to this thread as I find it very interesting (I'm not a Specialist or anything I just find it intriguing),
one thing I want to ask though; Martin says that his SNR "drops" when the REIN is effective... I always thought SNR was 'raised' by Interference? and decreases when that Interference goes away? - is there something I'm missing?
- stating the obvious, but, judging from the Router Stats graph its obviously something thats only on during the day as SNR drops during the night and increasing from 6.5db at about 2/3am to 12db by 6am , the day before at 6/7am it was 2db less (10db) - this could be the USB hub 'off' and the "second" cause of interference on its own (then the USB Hub coming on at lunchtime which would explain the 2db spike up to 12db)
please correct me if I've said anything incorrect here as Iam still learning myself and another reason for following this thread.
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Hi Snage again,
You'll see that we usually talk about signal to noise ratio and not just noise on its own.
So you can imagine the SNR as the freeboard on a boat, the more freeboard you have the better your chances of not being swamped by a large noise "wave".
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walter, :)
I prefer the "shouting over a noisy hall" analogy myself hehe, yeah I know what SNR Margin is etc (I actually know quite a bit about ADSL but not as much as some of these guys) I'm just saying that im confused at Martin saying: "Yes. I have only heard the radio noise when the SNR has plunged. I have never heard the radio noise when the SNR has *not* plunged. " Iam on the understanding that SNR 'raises' when there is interference on the line - or is he using that term meaning the line has dropped?
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Hi Walter, :)
I prefer the "shouting over a noisy hall" analogy myself hehe, yeah I know what SNR Margin is etc (I actually know quite a bit about ADSL but not as much as some of these guys) I'm just saying that im confused at Martin saying: "Yes. I have only heard the radio noise when the SNR has plunged. I have never heard the radio noise when the SNR has *not* plunged. " Iam on the understanding that SNR 'raises' when there is interference on the line - or is he using that term meaning the line has dropped?
Take it from me Walter, Snadge knows his stuff mate. Obviously you weren't to know that though and being the gentleman that you are, offered up your wisdom. :)
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I'm just saying that im confused at Martin saying: "Yes. I have only heard the radio noise when the SNR has plunged. I have never heard the radio noise when the SNR has *not* plunged. " Iam on the understanding that SNR 'raises' when there is interference on the line - or is he using that term meaning the line has dropped?
Let me explain my use of the word plunge. To me it means 'to go down' or 'get worse'. To me, going down in the Routerstats display means that the SNR margin is getting smaller numerically. If the required data signal is unchanged then the noise is getting worse and may eventually drown out the required data.
In some cases this causes the router to resync with the DSLAM at the exchange at a lower rate, effectively strengthening the required data signal and improving (making numerically larger) the SNR margin.
In other cases the router does not resync and the required data is indistinguishable from the noise on arrival and has to be retransmitted over and over again. This leads to download speeds (more correctly called bandwidth) of uncorrupted data to drop dramatically and the connection effectively becomes unusable.
I hope that I have that right!
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Hi
quote @ Snadge : I always thought SNR was 'raised' by Interference? and decreases when that Interference goes away? - is there something I'm missing?
Not quite right :)
SNR Signal to noise ratio that is the total ratio between the noise baseline and the signal level The LARGER the Better .
Routers normally display SNR margin ,the default is 6db(the target set for stability) on a good quality line . So if a line has an SNR of 50db then then there is 44db available for data .
If suddenly noise increases on the line say by 3db then your SNR margin will drop by 3db . So if you see a gradual or sudden drop in SNR margin then it is caused by gradual or sudden increase in noise . The opposite is also true if your SNR margin increases the the line conditions are improving .
Regards Jeff
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ahh right... i see what iam missing now...lol - where raising the SNR Margin just keeps the 'margin' at 6db regardless and does help to keep the line stable (even with less speed) but it doesnt hide from the fact that noise has increased on the line and a shrinking margin would reveal that happening... you know, ive been helping others on broadband forums for years now and im still learning basics like that ...sheesh..
thanks for clearing that up Jeff, much appreciated :)
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LOL Snadge. ;D
You're not on your own bud. I have to gen up on certain info from time-to-time (like SNR Margins), just to put the correct info back into my brain. As I learn new stuff, things like that seem to dissapear to the back of my tempal lobes. JeffBB is the man when it comes to SNR though. ;D
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LOL Snadge. ;D
You're not on your own bud. I have to gen up on certain info from time-to-time (like SNR Margins), just to put the correct info back into my brain. As I learn new stuff, things like that seem to dissapear to the back of my tempal lobes. JeffBB is the man when it comes to SNR though. ;D
haha - I know, I feel a bit embarrassed actually... BUT, glad that I fully understand how it works now, ive always though that a high SNR Margin meant that possible noise increase on line has caused it (higher SNR has been set to counter the noise increase to keep the line stable) , which I suppose is still correct, just ive never known about the plunging SNR Margin reveals the noise actually increasing... learn something new every-day haha
I find it all fascinating me ever since i learned from the likes of you Razpag and iZools on DSL-zone-UK ive always loved it, every time I see an Openreach van im nosing about too see what they are doing lol... I still have that faceplate & twisted pair cable you sent me, works a charm, ive actually just moved our master socket to the back door cos she wanted the phone away from the back of the TV.
anyway, sorry to Martin for going off topic, just I wanted to understand what he meant:- I cant wait to find out whats causing this noise problem of his, i read one report of someones tumble dryer was dropping every ones connection in the whole street when it came on at nights lol... its amazing how something like that can drop your broadband connection...
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LOL Snadge. Every day's a school day mate. ;D
Going back to REIN though, and it really, really can be a PITA to locate !! Especially the 'night-time events' like PIR Lighting, washer/dryers, baby monitors ......... anything really that a working household may switch on when they get home. Problem is, when they're getting home, so am I (and other OR REIN engineers), which leaves nobody around to do the job. ;D
As REIN locating is a goddwill gesture to ISP's and their EU's, I wouldn't expect any Operational Unit Manager to pay overtime out of their scrutinised budget, without the guarantee of a result. It just comes down to business accumen in the end. I'm pretty sure things will change regarding REIN faulting (IMHO), in time to come. ::)
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anyway, sorry to Martin for going off topic, just I wanted to understand what he meant:-
Don't worry. I believe in 'Life Long Learning' as well.
PS No problems here at present but some of the neighbours are away!!
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Neighbours back and the intermittent REIN has resumed. Is this a clue?!
However my connection is now relatively stable because my target SNR seems to have been increased from 6dB to something higher. Daytime SNR is 10-11 dB. The intermittent REIN is now no longer sufficient to cause a router resync so my ISP seems to regard my line as stable and no longer a fault. I have offered them a different opinion!!
Do others have experience of this type of situation? In practice it looks like my connection has been degraded to be more tolerant of intermittent REIN rather than finding the source of the problem. This does not seem to be an appropriate response to the problem.
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Hi Martin,
Your experiences are not dissimilar from those of poor Paul here:-
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9726.msg199270.html#new
If one were a philanthropic multi-billionaire one might be tempted to say that unshielded twisted pairs are unsuitable for high speed broadband, despite all the twinkly advertisements.
It is perhaps a very sad fact that fibre is probably the only suitable transmission medium as it is imune from all electrical noise, although it is fragile if not engineered properly.
Kind regards,
Walter
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... one might be tempted to say that unshielded twisted pairs are unsuitable for high speed broadband, despite all the twinkly advertisements.
It is perhaps a very sad fact that fibre is probably the only suitable transmission medium as it is imune from all electrical noise, although it is fragile if not engineered properly.
I agree.
To be fair, it is quite a clever trick to get such high bandwidth down copper that was not intended for this service. However, given that it can be made to work, I want what my copper can deliver! I have recently see a sync of 10056 kbps at 6.5 dB, stable for about 4 hours, so it shows that ADSL2+ is capable of giving me a significant benefit. This figure is broadly in line with Kitz's 'Maximum adsl speed calculator' prediction for my 35dB downstream attenuation, as it was for my previous ADSL2 connection.
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Just to chip in, I had a REIN problem that was caused by my neighbour's stairlift battery charging. The REIN usually lasted up to half an hour and was intermittent thorough the day and corresponded with the periods after the chairlift had been in use (which was a bit confusing to start with). I was seeing a similar 9db drop in SNR margin.
The stairlift guys eventually replaced the control box and fixed the REIN problem. I believe faulty battery charging equipment has a reputation for interfering with ADSL - might be worth looking around for any kit of that ilk.
Iain
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Just to chip in, I had a REIN problem that was caused by my neighbour's stairlift battery charging.
I think that I may have read your thread on this.
My timings seem to be just before meal times (lunch and dinner). Duration is 20 mins to 90 mins. Fan oven perhaps?
PS All bungalows around here so stair-lift not likely ;)
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yes could be an oven, and extrapulating this for a food related item is a good idea, but also think around that as to what else could be used about that time. Could they have a tv on, one during the cooking in the kitchen. A fidge/frezzer working harder than normal as its been opened recently. An extractor fan. Water heaters, a radio. And yes if the problem comes up just when neighbours are back then its quite fair to say their premises may contain the cause.
If you do approach them, then remember who this may seem from their point of view, and it will the most natural thing in the world for them to feel even a bit under attack (all sorts of ways to word this but think what if you were in their shoes and if you knew nothing of REIN). So be gentle and reassure its not personal straight away. When dealing with REIN faults I officialy was not to approach 3rd parties, but realisticaly I did. And you may be doing them a favour as if they have broadband they probably also feel a bit miffed because their broadband isnt performing as they hoped it would. Tell them of this site so they can peruse the info at their leisure, or even pop on to this forum (hello Martins neighbours, :clap:)
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This figure is broadly in line with Kitz's 'Maximum adsl speed calculator' prediction for my 35dB downstream attenuation, as it was for my previous ADSL2 connection.
I used to get 13,000k sync with 39db Line Attenuation and 6db snr margin... i must have been very lucky..
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Hell, you must have done good things for people over your lifetime Snadge !! ;D
My attenuation is also 39dB, and the highest I've managed is 9Meg. Believe me, there's nothing more that can be enhanced on my circuit. ;) ;D
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i used to get it to 16,000k with a 2db SNR with about 13Mbps actual throughput :)
my neighbour downstairs directly underneath (at the time) on same ISP and connection could only get a 9,100k sync like yourself... wierd innit? I used Netgear GT (DG team) , he had o2 Wireless Box II - mind I could get the 13,000k on my SPeedtouch 780 that o2 gave me (big ugly thing) - both the GT and 780 have Broadcom chipsets i think ...dunno what his wirless box II was... sorry for going offtopic
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Just an update to let readers know that there is little progress. My ISP seems to be loosing interest despite the on-going severe bursts of REIN. The last one dropped my SNR by 10dB and caused a resync. Now that it has stopped, I am at 2880 kbps @ 19.5 dB SNR margin on a 35.0 dB downstream attenuation ADSL2+ line.
Does anyone have a reference to service level agreements, contracts or the like that set out Openreach's obligations in such a case? Is operating faulty electrical equipment that interferes with radio or other telecommunications covered by any civil or criminal law? Many statutory bodies have right of access to premises etc. when some breach of law is suspected.
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Hi martin,
There is no Universal Service Obligation of any sort on a BT provided ADSL service. However BT often use best endeavours to assist in tracing and eliminating an interfering RF source which I think might get charged to the service provider.
More expensive business broadband suppliers do often help to resolve these issues more vigorously.
It is illegal to transmit a faulty radio signal but getting anybody to enforce a resolution can often be a very tedious and not always successful task.
Kind regards,
Walter
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There is no Universal Service Obligation of any sort on a BT provided ADSL service. However BT often use best endeavours to assist in tracing and eliminating an interfering RF source which I think might get charged to the service provider.
More expensive business broadband suppliers do often help to resolve these issues more vigorously.
I rather guessed that this might be the case!
It is illegal to transmit a faulty radio signal but getting anybody to enforce a resolution can often be a very tedious and not always successful task.
I assume that you mean RF interference from faulty electrical apparatus. If so can you give me clue about finding the actual legislation and who enforces it.
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For deliberate and inadvertent transmissions, it is now within the remit of Offcom, I believe. :police:
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For deliberate and inadvertent transmissions, it is now within the remit of Offcom, I believe. :police:
Thanks. I had already had a look round their web site. It only covers more mainstream issues. They don't provide an email address for contact but an initial phone call might do the trick!
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I think you'll find that Ofcom refuse to deal with individual users.
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I think you'll find that Ofcom refuse to deal with individual users.
On this topic or generally? They seem to have set up a series of arbitration systems for certain types of complaint. Presumably if there is one that covers REIN issues you gave to go there first. Eventually the buck will stop with Ofcom.
Items 2 and 4 on this page may be relevant:
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/spectrum-enforcement/ops/ (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/spectrum-enforcement/ops/)
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Have a look at this page, (http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/tell-us/telecoms/customer-services/customer-service/) and particularly the box which says "Although it isn’t Ofcom’s role to handle customer service complaints, we still take a close interest in monitoring consumer experiences."
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Thank you for that clarification, Eric. I think you will agree that it should still be possible, though, to obtain some advice from Offcom.
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Certainly, yes. And I would hope that advice would be relevant, although I have to admit that I don't hold that organisation in high regard. :)
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Found it!
As it was beginning to look like my ISP and Openreach were loosing interest in finding my intermittent REIN fault, I took matters into my own hands. I mentioned above a possible clue where the REIN went when a neighbour was away, so I started there.
Bingo! Exercise treadmill in the garage. Switched it on and REIN everywhere with a 9dB drop in SNR and an immediate resync to a much lower rate.
I will interested in how the retailer of the treadmill responds to the situation!
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Well done mate. ;D
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Excellent result Martin. ;D
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't a certain cat say, after having heard (http://www.thegoosefamily.plus.com/REIN_on_612kHz.mp3) your evidence of the REIN, that it sounded like an exercise treadmill and enquired if SWMBO was performing her morning running routine? :P
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Yes you did and full credit to you ;D
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Not much more to this thread, just a footnote.
My connection is now back to something reasonable using my favourite 2WIRE ADSL modem/router. Currently 9853 kbps @ 5.9 dB.
One of Plusnet's recent notes states the following.
(LL14 Task) - Engineer’s notes on 17/08/2011: Line Test not carried out. Test facility was not available. REIN issue identified on line, had co op call with REIN helpdesk and was told that a REIN fault could not be raised unless the line had an AC bal of 50dB or above and an RF3 filter was fitted on the line. The AC bal is above 50dB and engineer has fitted an RF3 filter and advised customer to monitor the broadband.
I have a question about the RF3 filter. It is connected upstream of the master socket so Openreach's property. Is leaving this in place a good thing? It was expected to be a temporary requirement so it is not fixed to the wall. It also has a short lead going to an adjacent earth point. If it is worth keeping I will just fix it to the wall properly myself. Otherwise I may ask my ISP to arrange for Openreach to remove it.
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An RF3 is likely to cause some reduction in your connection speed, but otherwise it's generally of benefit to stability. What are your router stats looking like now?
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Stats generally as stated above. Now 9853 kbps @ 6.0 dB
SNR/Sync rate plot uploaded hourly to:
<http://www.thegoosefamily.plus.com/Rx_Noise_margin_%28dB%29.jpg>
This currently shows performance since the 2Wire went back in. Suddenly the DSLAM seems to have noticed and made the improvement you see at 13:45:44
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It's the attenuation that I was interested in, to see if you're now getting the best speed you can expect.
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It's the attenuation that I was interested in, to see if you're now getting the best speed you can expect.
As reported by the Thomson it was always 35dB
The 2wire (V5) reports differently in two places.
39.9 dB on the 'Management and Diagnostic Console, Broadband Link – Statistics' page.
32.3 dB on the 'Management and Diagnostic Console, Troubleshooting – DSL Diagnostics' page.
The latter figure is quoted as 'Downstream Atten. at 300kHz'. That may account for the difference. Which one should I use for the Kitz, Maximum adsl speed calculator page <http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php>?
While on the topic, the 'Management and Diagnostic Console, Troubleshooting – DSL Diagnostics' page also shows:
Uncancelled Echo: -2.9 dB Suspicious - check phone filters and alarm
Anything to worry about? I have obviously going over my installation with a 'fine tooth comb' as part of the preparation for dealing with my REIN issues, so I have great faith in my current hardware :)
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The attenuation figure quoted by most routers is some sort of weighted average of the attenuation levels of the different frequencies used. The 300 kHz figure is rarely quoted. From the point of view of the Kitz estimator the average figure is the one you're interested in, so it's ~40 dB according to the 2-wire, or 35 dB according to the Thomson. So, depending on which figure you believe, you're either getting the highest speed you can reasonably expect, or you're not.
Sorry about the whimsical summation, but unfortunately routers do vary in the attenuation figures they report, which makes it hard to draw firm conclusions. I would say that the RF3 probably isn't depressing your speed to any important degree, and may help a bit with stability, so I would suggest you leave it in place.
(Edit) I forgot about the last point. Perhaps the uncancelled echo is caused by the RF3, but that's pure guesswork on my part.
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(Edit) I forgot about the last point. Perhaps the uncancelled echo is caused by the RF3, but that's pure guesswork on my part.
I don't think that that is the case, because the uncancelled echo warning was present last year, long before these REIN issues and before ADSL2+ and FTTC arrived here (I have the former but obviously not the latter!)
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Having recently had an RF3 fitted, it has made a significant improvement to my line stability and, thus, sync speed.
I believe I read somewhere that the loop resistive increase, R, caused by an RF3's insertion therein, is:
2 Ohms > R > 1 Ohm
measurable but essentially negligible. What minor increase in loop attenuation it may cause is, more often than not, insignificant compared to the line stability it will provide and hence sync speed gain.
I guess I'm saying that if I was you, Martin, I'd retain the services of the RF3 and, without mentioning it, mount it properly! :)