Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: phi2008 on May 04, 2008, 05:53:02 AM

Title: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: phi2008 on May 04, 2008, 05:53:02 AM: I've got an intermittent fault on my ADSL line that causes disconnections/syncing problems. I've had it now for a couple of years but things are coming to a head (current profile 135 kilobits/s), and I'm considering calling out an engineer. I suspect (could be completely wrong) my line might have been damaged when I had double glazing fitted (the line comes in through the window frame) about two years ago.

Here's my dilemma, I guess the engineer won't be able to locate the intermittent fault and I'll be charged almost £200 for basically nothing. Now on the other hand would it work out cheaper if I simply got BT to replace the line from outside my house all the way to the master socket (as a quoted job - guessing that the double glazing is the issue) ? Seems to me the engineer's visits are just a waste of time and money for locating intermittent faults (from what I've read). :(
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: roseway on May 04, 2008, 07:18:07 AM: Hi and welcome.

I suppose it is a bit of a gamble either way, but you shouldn't really get charged for reporting a genuine fault, even if it is intermittent. If there is sometimes audible noise on the line then you can phone 150 and report it as a voice fault - if it's actually crackling when you do this, that ought to be pretty good evidence.

If there's no audible noise, then the proper thing to do is report it to your ISP. But before you do this it would be worth reading this (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/troubleshooting.htm) and the associated pages, just to make sure that you've done everything you can to make sure that the fault isn't of your own making.
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: phi2008 on May 04, 2008, 07:49:33 AM: Thanks for the reply ...

I've swapped routers/filters and used the test socket to no avail. Same old disconnections. It would of course be sensible to call the ADSL engineer out first but I've heard so many bad things about the charges (and the lack of action the typical engineer takes) I'm petrified. :(
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: Pwiggler on May 04, 2008, 09:03:10 AM: hi phi2008

nowt to be petrified about, report the disconnections to your isp and follow their instructions to diagnose the fault and do everything they ask (and document what you have done).

if they cannot diag the problem then they will have to arrange for the engineer to visit you at no charge to yourself.
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: UncleUB on May 04, 2008, 09:11:39 AM: I think BT are responsible for the cable entering your house up to the mains socket.If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: kitz on May 04, 2008, 11:46:10 AM: Hi phi and welcome.

Could you provide your line stats (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.htm) just so we can have a look and see if we can spot anything obvious.
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: Ezzer on May 04, 2008, 02:05:49 PM: You only get charged if a fault is proved and it's found to either be on your equipment/wiring after the nte. or if bt plant is damaged (not through normal wear and tear) within your curtlage.

The other way your charged is for repeated no access, if your out on more than one appointed slot.

If it's an intermitent fault then yes that is extreamly annoying for the engineer to have to walk away thinking there's something lurking there somewhere which may spring up at some time. Let alone if an engineer gets a repeat report which counts as a black mark both officialy and with pride. You don't get charged for no fault found because there could be an intermitent fault and in that case who's to say if the fault is out in the network, hence not chargeable.

If the lead-in has been damaged where the double glazing has been fitted then that does become chargeable athough if this was the case I would anticipate your normal telephony to be affected as Roseway pointed out
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: phi2008 on May 04, 2008, 09:02:16 PM: Quote from: kitz on May 04, 2008, 11:46:10 AM
Could you provide your line stats (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.htm)

Quote
DSL Connection

Link Information

Uptime:   0 days, 0:44:36
Modulation:   G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:   448 / 6,752
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]:   1.72 / 4.06
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:   11.5 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:   11.0 / 18.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:   24.0 / 14.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote):   TMMB / ALCB
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote):   0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):   1 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down):   0 / 107
CRC Errors (Up/Down):   0 / 5
HEC Errors (Up/Down):   0 / 4

OK, these are the stats (Speedtouch 780WL) after I've just turned the router back on after a local storm. Typically the error sections would have higher figures after longer use. Normally I get a few disconnections/sync issues a day if the day is overcast, but when the sun comes out and heats things up I get lots of line problems. ???

P.S. All stats from the BT test socket.
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: kitz on May 05, 2008, 11:28:31 AM: With a line attenuation of 18dB, you should in theory be getting the full 8Mb (or 7616 since I notice you have interleaving applied).
Looking at your SNR Margin it looks like your Target SNR has been set to 15dB, which is the highest profile... but indicates that in the past the line has been unstable. Pointing to SNR problems and a possible REIN fault.

It could be worth while mentioning to the adsl engineer that despite having an 18dB attenuation figure your line is troublesome and doesnt sync at the speeds it should.. and that at times you record lots of errors and resyncs.

If I were you, when the engineer calls.. offer him a cuppa.. tell him all the things that have been mentioned so far.. say that you are concerned about any charges that may incur, but stress that you have tried everything you possibly can yourself to eradicate the cause of the problem.
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: guest on May 05, 2008, 11:59:28 AM: Ezzer - I was under the distinct impression that if the engineer so much as touches CPE then that triggers the charge. There doesn't have to be a fault on the CPE, just the fact the engineer "investigates" whether there is or not triggers the charge.

I know that AAISP still advise that customers should disconnect everything possible from the NTE prior to the engineer visit and under no circumstances should you let the engineer touch anything which isn't BT property - unless of course the customer actually wants to pay BT rates for new extensions etc.

Is that still the case?
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: Ezzer on May 05, 2008, 12:13:35 PM: Rizla , your right about touching the cpe, hence an engineer should always go for the test socket. We're supposed to ask the end user before touching their wiring/apps because of the charge. If it just so happens that the customers router is in sync an the stats are there on there on the monitor, well that was handy wasn't it :-X

Mind you i some times wonder what the people who make the rules think happens on a visit, plug in the socket, line tests ok here, bye. >:( one happy customer, err, not quite)

If a fault is registed on a test yet it's not there when the face plate is removed, then by deduction it's going to be a chargeable visit because the only way to get a ltok on closing the job is to leave the end users wiring/apps disconnected :(
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: guest on May 05, 2008, 01:01:25 PM: The problem is that the beancounters write the rules and they haven't a clue about the real world. Common sense is an optional extra these days too :(

So you'd still advise users to be a bit cautious about letting the engineer touch CPE? I'm sure there's plenty of decent engineers who will take a common sense view but I'm equally sure there's plenty of useless middle-managers trying to meet targets who pile on the pressure to charge - unless of course some sort of huge corporate change took place in BT and we didn't notice it happen :P ;)
/me has fond recollections of a shop floor data capture system that had to be totally rewritten TWICE cos beanies didn't listen to users when specifying it - a test dept with no codes for faults/fault-finding is a really useful "data capture" system eh? :lol:
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: kitz on May 05, 2008, 01:49:04 PM: Quote
If it just so happens that the customers router is in sync an the stats are there on there on the monitor, well that was handy wasn't it

That reminds me of something one of the adsl fault engineers I spent a fair bit of time with the other week said to me.. (something very similar). Although they are not supposed to check further on.. its my impression that the vast majority are "good guys" and will actually have a quick look if everything is there ready - hence the offer of a cuppa ;)

>> I'm sure there's plenty of decent engineers who will take a common sense view

The guys that I were with certainly would have - but admittedly they were all very experienced engineers who knew their jobs pretty well and had been doing it for years.. and just like to get faults resolved one way or another.

>> I'm equally sure there's plenty of useless middle-managers trying to meet targets who pile on the pressure to charge

and that unfortunately is the crux... that and the time limits that each engineer has for each job :(
... oh and of course, as in every industry, there are always the "jobs worths".
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: Ezzer on May 05, 2008, 04:16:47 PM: To just test the line to the test socket and say, "it's testing ok bye" would be particuarly off on a broad band fault. By it's very nature you have to test to; both with and without the internal wiring connected.

Besides if I was to do a half hearted job, chances are i would be me who ends up comming back.

And It's nice when I keep getting a wave or thumbs up whilst in the city with comments like "Still working ok, thanks" "Who was that ?" "Can't remember" ;D
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: phi2008 on May 05, 2008, 04:38:36 PM: Quote from: kitz on May 05, 2008, 11:28:31 AM
Looking at your SNR Margin it looks like your Target SNR has been set to 15dB, which is the highest profile... but indicates that in the past the line has been unstable. Pointing to SNR problems and a possible REIN fault.

Yes, I have plenty of sync/problems and disconnections (as you can see from the graph below- starts late April 2006) but I'm pretty sure it's not a REIN fault. The severity of the problem is predictable ... sunny days give a high frequency of issues, while during cool cloudy weather the ADSL tends to normal behaviour.

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg329.imageshack.us%2Fimg329%2F8485%2Fsynchistnz2.png&hash=baed61b5f204bfd03c02ceb484541792bc48cb79)

Quote
If I were you, when the engineer calls.. offer him a cuppa.. tell him all the things that have been mentioned so far.. say that you are concerned about any charges that may incur, but stress that you have tried everything you possibly can yourself to eradicate the cause of the problem.

When I mention that the line problems started around the time my double glazing was fitted (and he therefore has to investigate) won't this cause the visit to become instantly chargeable ? :-\
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: Ezzer on May 05, 2008, 05:14:32 PM: From what you've described it soinds as if the frame of your double glazing is expanding in the heat from the sun and may be bearing up against your telephone line and possibly making contact with one leg of your cable so causing the fault.

Unfortunately this is chargeable, but then again this would be damage cost incurred due to the double glazing fitters so the charge should be passed on the the double glazing firm.

A friend of mine is such a fitter and has been hit by his firm for just such costs. although now heBs a bit more savy to cabling.

phone lines are not ment to be fitted through window frames iwhere ever possible in case of referbishment work in the future. occasionaly its unavaoid able. +he done thing is when the window is removed, to cut a chanel in the maisonry to house the cable so the new frame dosn't bear up to ot cut the cable. although if the cable was going through the old frame this may indicate a difficulty in cutting just such a channel.
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: UncleUB on May 05, 2008, 05:22:03 PM: Having spent a number of years fitting UPVC windows I agree with what ezzer says.I myself would just channel a bit of the mortar out of one of the brickwork joints and ease the cable in there before you fit the new frame.I will be honest and say I have cut through a phone cable and a tv ariel in my time,and have had to sort it/pay for it myself.After all we are only human. :angel:
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: phi2008 on May 05, 2008, 06:00:52 PM: Quote from: Ezzer on May 05, 2008, 05:14:32 PM
From what you've described it soinds as if the frame of your double glazing is expanding in the heat from the sun and may be bearing up against your telephone line and possibly making contact with one leg of your cable so causing the fault. ...

I really hope it's something like that otherwise I'm lost :(

The sun came out after my last post and I lost DSL connectivity for half an hour or so, voice line had crackling/noise on it (together with the odd "modem" type sound which I assume was coming off my ADSL router). Sun went back in and the voice line and DSL returned to "normal". Oh how I long for a permanent fault ! ::)
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: Ezzer on May 05, 2008, 06:22:13 PM: That modem type noise would be the inital handshake signal when the router/modem detects a digital signal on the line and is saying "hello, i'm here, please talk to me" it's at a lower frequency than normal briadband hence you can sometimes hear it on pstn dispite havung the filters in place. once youve syncbed up this should disappear.

Ive just realised, could i have imagined when i was at school, technology would progress further than anything on say the thunderbirds. I'm sitting here in a pub after watching a footie match on a tv screen 82 inches wide whilst surfing the net and chatting to people all over the country on a little device that could fit inside a ciggarette packet (I don't smoke by the way) from a comfy sofa. Wow what will the next 2 years bring. At 6th form we learned to do boolian algebra in out heads because it was so much faster than using the BBC computer (remember them)
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: Mr_CheeZe on June 13, 2008, 05:55:06 PM: too many people that i visit get it wrong when they give their opinion on what they think is wrong with their fone line or broadband.
they range from 'there were blokes digging down the road the other day' nowhere near the line of route..
to, 'my fone hasnt worked since i plugged my new homehub in' (stupid woman plugged fone into hub, not filter)
dont be so sure your problem is caused by the wire thru the windowframe.
the only way to cure the problem is to get an engineer look at it. if the cable has been damaged by the window installers, get them to pay for the repair.
it wont fix itself and eventually your adsl (and fone line)will fail altogether. then you will have to get it sorted.
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: rockywr22 on June 15, 2008, 04:28:35 PM: YES IT IS A REIN PROBLEM
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: sicartd on June 17, 2008, 06:07:48 PM: I feel for you mate - really do, since March this year my otherwise rock solid 4Mb connection has dropped right down to 160Kb, practically useless for working from home.

I've contacted Demon a number of times and managed to get 3 engineers out, all completely useless neither aware of the previous engineers notes due to BT openreaches (lack of) CRM system, so every visit starts right at the beginning - then after 2 hours the engineers are gone in a puff of smoke, cause they only get paid for 2 hours.

At the point now where the last engineer told Demon that I was unable to get Broadband - which is bullsh1t because I had it for 4 years at 4Mb.

I'm at the point now where my options are, move house or change job.

Hope you have better luck than me.

Dave
Title: Re: The Engineer Visit Dilemma
Post by: kitz on June 20, 2008, 09:13:46 AM: >> I had it for 4 years at 4Mb.

Have you asked your ISP if they have a record of what your FTR (Fault Threshold Rate (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm) is/are/was?

I'm not sure when you got maxed but probably sometime in 2006.. at which time your FTR should have been set... and based on a 4Mb sync it should be somewhere in the region of around 2.5Mb. Once your speed goes below this level then you have valid cause to complain to BT. From what you say and if it was right up till March... then unless youve had a lift and shift which will cause a new retrain, your ISP may still have a record of your old MSR and FTR levels.