Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: alexxx on April 02, 2017, 11:44:05 AM
-
Hey guys, I hear this is the best place to see if anything can be done!
I upgraded from an Infinity 1 package to Infinity 2 before going away for 6 weeks. I came back and the download speed was close enough identical but I could see the upload was now around 17.
I thought there maybe a cap on the DL so after a few live chats they agreed to send an engineer.
I'm 200 meters from the exchange in a mid 90's house and the tech couldn't find any faults. He tried a new master socket with an inbuilt filter but it made 0 difference.
I'm a web dev so felt for the guy as it sounds like his hands were tied as there was no errors to chase. The noise was all good and he checked the cabinet as he said it maybe a port issue or a DLM but it was neither.
The speed leaving the cabinet is the full speed 80/20 but when it gets to the house its lost 20mb on the down with the up being pretty much unaffected.
So basically... any suggestions on where I could investigate this further would be amazing as I use the internet heavily through the week and the extra 15-20 dl would be a real benefit.
Thanks for your time
Alex
-
Speed you get on FTTC depends upon your distance from the cabinet, not the distance to the exchange. If you use BT Wholesales ADSL checker it will tell you your cabinet number and a reasonably accurate speed estimate. If your speeds line up with the ADSL checker, then nothing can be done. However, if they are significantly below those estimates, then that could be a sign of something on your line. At worst, it could be that your line is aluminium based for a large portion, otherwise it could be a fault, but as the OR engineer couldn't find a fault, I surmise it could just be you are getting the best from your line.
-
Speed you get on FTTC depends upon your distance from the cabinet, not the distance to the exchange. If you use BT Wholesales ADSL checker it will tell you your cabinet number and a reasonably accurate speed estimate. If your speeds line up with the ADSL checker, then nothing can be done. However, if they are significantly below those estimates, then that could be a sign of something on your line. At worst, it could be that your line is aluminium based for a large portion, otherwise it could be a fault, but as the OR engineer couldn't find a fault, I surmise it could just be you are getting the best from your line.
The 200 meters is the line length that the tech quoted me I believe so it's my distance to the cabinet that is 200 meters (sorry for my poor wording earlier)
I got this but it doesn't look familiar to the tool I've used in the past (I was sure it used to give noise / signal ratios?)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ruervy8pzir8jc/Screenshot%202017-04-02%2012.13.03.png?dl=0
Cabinet 21: Ulverston
https://www.dropbox.com/s/suwel6srjq92e8c/Screenshot%202017-04-02%2012.30.24.png?dl=0
I was quoted 73 down before I signed up
-
The 200 meters is the line length that the tech quoted me I believe so it's my distance to the cabinet that is 200 meters (sorry for my poor wording earlier)
I got this but it doesn't look familiar to the tool I've used in the past (I was sure it used to give noise / signal ratios?)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ruervy8pzir8jc/Screenshot%202017-04-02%2012.13.03.png?dl=0
Cabinet 21: Ulverston
https://www.dropbox.com/s/suwel6srjq92e8c/Screenshot%202017-04-02%2012.30.24.png?dl=0
I was quoted 73 down before I signed up
Either the line is longer than that, it's made of aluminium, a combination of both, or there's a fault that the engineer didn't idenfity.
-
Is your premises fed overhead ?? If so, there should be a number on the DP (The telegraph pole) if it hasn't been removed/damaged ?
If you can get me that number I may be able to scrutinise the cable further for you ?.
-
Can you also post some stats from your modem e.g. Connection Speed, Attainable Speed, SNR Margin, etc?
-
Is your premises fed overhead ?? If so, there should be a number on the DP (The telegraph pole) if it hasn't been removed/damaged ?
If you can get me that number I may be able to scrutinise the cable further for you ?.
It comes in underground actually (well I can see the cable leaving my external wall where the master socket is and then going into the ground, so I'm assuming its under the whole way there?
Would a picture of the wire help show if its aluminium?
Here is a screenshot from homehub helpdesk:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mhcamkwzahiuuc9/Screenshot%202017-04-02%2017.33.51.png?dl=0
-
What is your underground feed like? I am on 80/20 and 300 metres from cabinet but only getting 44/13. I am hoping an engineer will replace my feed as its old non twisted 2 pair. Maybe you have the same.
I have changed the master socket and got an extra 2 meg out of my line but I still think the feed is the problem.
-
No, I'm afraid a picture wouldn't help. The only premises I can find that are underground feeds off that Cab (apart from Ind Units) within that distance, are premises on HG or TG ???.
Both these premises appear to be fed over copper cable.
-
No, I'm afraid a picture wouldn't help. The only premises I can find that are underground feeds off that Cab (apart from Ind Units) within that distance, are premises on HG or TG ???.
Both these premises appear to be fed over copper cable.
Thanks for looking - what does HG and TG stand for sorry? would it help if I pm'd my address to double check rough distances?
-
What is your underground feed like? I am on 80/20 and 300 metres from cabinet but only getting 44/13. I am hoping an engineer will replace my feed as its old non twisted 2 pair. Maybe you have the same.
I have changed the master socket and got an extra 2 meg out of my line but I still think the feed is the problem.
I'll go take a snap of it
-
For that attenuation and particularly SNRM your synch seems rather low. Are you plugged in to the master socket or an extension socket?
Can you plug your Home Hub into the test socket in the master socket and see what the stats look like?
-
Thanks for looking - what does HG and TG stand for sorry? would it help if I pm'd my address to double check rough distances?
Yeah, I've PM'd ya. :)
-
The cable is black and circular that leaves the house externally and goes underground . There are 6 matching terrace houses in this block and an old house next to them with a telegraph pole in its garden serving wires to the other old properties on the street. I wonder if we route under the ground to this pole
The tests the engineer and I did was from the old master test socket and the new one appears identical in results except there is an inbuilt filter
-
Your block of premises are fed from a cat-iron carriageway joint box, that's actually in the footpath. :)
-
The cable is black and circular that leaves the house externally and goes underground . There are 6 matching terrace houses in this block and an old house next to them with a telegraph pole in its garden serving wires to the other old properties on the street. I wonder if we route under the ground to this pole
The tests the engineer and I did was from the old master test socket and the new one appears identical in results except there is an inbuilt filter
Sounds different to mine, mine is grey figure 8 cable with 2 wires, I need a black one with twisted pair.
-
Your block of premises are fed from a cat-iron carriageway joint box, that's actually in the footpath. :)
Is that a good or bad thing :D?
-
It's a good thing for you alexxxx.
-
It's a good thing for you alexxxx.
Thanks for your help and finding that out Black Sheep. Based on what you know about my line now do you have any recommendations on how I should proceed with BT? is it worth calling out a second engineer for another opinion or escalating the issue in another way?
-
I would say it's certainly worth taking up with your ISP again, especially as the lowest speed estimate given (Impacted) is 67Meg. You are obviously getting less than that. :)
-
Ok so apparently a "Bt Wholesale Engineer" is coming out tomorrow to remove a capping rather than the "BT Openreach Engineer" does that sound legit? Do wholesale techs have more powers?
-
Ok so apparently a "Bt Wholesale Engineer" is coming out tomorrow to remove a capping rather than the "BT Openreach Engineer" does that sound legit? Do wholesale techs have more powers?
They do in as much as they can remotely isolate a BB circuit to test whether a PPP Session fault is due to Openreach's network, or the ISP ?? But in your instance, I would suggest it's actually an Openreach engineer that will be despatched ??
Maybe it was just a simple case of someone getting confused ?? Anyhows, it matters not I suppose so long as you get your reset done. :)
-
The ISP is BT in this case - the livechat person was sure that it was going to be a wholesale engineer rather than the same engineer type they sent last time. The tech on friday did say he couldn't see any kind of cap or porting issues though... I'm not holding out for much but we'll see!
I just tested the line this morning with and without the faceplate on the new mk4 filtered socket and it seems about 1-2mb faster without the faceplate on and using an adsl filter I had lying around.
If I get the new tech to disconnect the wiring from the master socket to the other sockets in the house would it be expected to get the same speed as the test socket? I dont use the extensions at all so will probably end up dragging cat6 through them in the future.
Thanks! I'll report back tomorrow to try and conclude a happy story! :)
-
Not the outcome I was looking for...
So the second tech just came - checked the line my end - asked a lot of questions about the situation ect... said he can't do anything so flagged it as some kind of fault on the line for the isp to investigate further.
Just came back to the pc to do a speed test... and now the router has sync'd at 43mb down and a worse upload rate at 16.... so it's got even worse!
What's the deal now?!
-
I've attached 3 pictures from the help desk print out.. looks like the up noise has gone from 3 to 6?
Test socket in use in new mk4 master socket:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eocvaenzjblioju/test%20socket.png?dl=0
Using mk4 faceplate filter:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cdzizp36n7lw7r8/using%20mk4%20faceplate%20filter.png?dl=0
New connection after 2nd bt engineer visit (see lower sync speeds and higher noise?):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/99p4udg265ka220/after%20second%20engineer%20visit.png?dl=0
-
Just tried to test if the speed was an issue with the socket by using the test socket and now connected at 14down 5up... ****! haha teach me to fiddle!
Is this DLM monitoring the line and thinking it's bad due to so many disconnections in a short space of time? They are trigger happy aren't they!
The line att has gone through the roof too!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/98sohjf4irh79ui/after%20second%20engineer%20visit%202.png?dl=0
I did ask him to disconnect the home extension for the phone as I don't use them but I'm not sure if thats related? He just un did the 2 cables from the front faceplate that disconnects I believe?
-
Looks like you have a dodgy connection somewhere for the attenuation to change like that, has the BT guy fiddled with the master socket, could be a loose wire!
-
the line has gone back to the 43mb down which is 17mb worse off than before the last bt engineer.
All he did on the master socket was disconnect the internal wiring I believe - he didnt take the full socket off so dont think he can have affected anything else
BT are single handedly the worse support I've ever dealt with on the phone and chat they just want to pass you onto nothing.. pff wishing I hadn't bothered now!
-
I would strongly advise you don't reconnect the line again. Anytime you do need to resync, for example connecting to the test socket, you should leave a 30 minute gap between the disconnection and reconnection.
DLM has no idea you're playing with things and simply counts the number of retrains. If you leave the line down for 30 mins then it does not get counted.
-
. . . looks like the up noise has gone from 3 to 6?
The item reported on line number eight, in all of those images, is the Signal to Noise Ratio Margin. When abbreviated = SNRM.
-
The item reported on line number eight, in all of those images, is the Signal to Noise Ratio Margin. When abbreviated = SNRM.
Thanks for spotting me struggling with the description of that! I had a look online and it says a higher number is better but I feel like I've read that wrong. It was 6/3 is it the first number that should be higher and the second that should be lower for an ideal line?
-
For plain FTTC, the DSLAM and modem use a "target SNR margin" when negotiating the sync speed. They choose sync speeds such that, after synchronisation, the actual margin will be 6dB (*). Afterwards, the modem will display the actual measured SNRM as line conditions (such as noise) vary.
What you want, then, is for the SNRM to be 6dB after a sync, and remain at that forever.
You might not end up at 6dB, though, if either the maximum package speed is reached, or DLM has set you to a lower "banded" speed for stability reasons. In both cases, your actual margin will be above 6dB.
In practice, higher margins mean lower error rates, so are good - but only if you have the full package speed.
(*) - BT have been trialling the use of lower target SNRM values - of 5dB, 4dB and 3dB. They are now in the process of rolling this change out, so you can expect to see target (and actual) margins lower than 6dB.
-
It was 6/3 is it the first number that should be higher and the second that should be lower for an ideal line?
It looks like the first number is upstream, and the second number was downstream.
In fact, downstream was 3.4dB - which is a common result of the new target settings from BT: We call it 5dB, 4dB and 3dB, but the actual values we've seen in practice seem to be 5.4dB, 4.4dB and 3.4dB. No idea why.
Perhaps your line had been switched to the new setup, but DLM swapped back to the standard target as part of the engineer visit.
-
Thank you - very helpful indeed :)
-
engineer was a no show. got a text at 6pm saying one had been assigned yet they were meant to be there by 6. that was 2 days ago :/
-
Ok so pulling my hair out a bit now.. 3rd engineer who came "oh you line can only support 43mb down..." well it can't as it was 60/18 rock solid for 2 months... for some reason he can't seem to get the noise to go back to 6.0db / 3.0db and its staying at 6.0db/6.0db
Nevermind it going to the 73mb down minimum promised.. It looks like I can't even get back to the 60mb down I had and stuck with 43mb..
They engineers are all really nice guys but they don't seem to be able to tell me much about anything.. all feels a little secretive or like they aren't they right guy for this particular problem.
Any advice on where to go next?! :(
-
Nobody can force the line back to 3dB target SNRM.
DLM should automatically apply this in time if the line remains stable.
That may be all the line is able to achieve now. Almost every single FTTC user sees a drop in speed over time caused by crosstalk. Quite often bigger drops than what you have seen.
-
The line was super stable at 60mb/18 though and only changed when the last engineer was fettling so I don't see how thats likely due to crosstalk as it's surely too much of a coincidence? Is there really no way to put it on a fresh port or whatever it'd be called and do a "this is a fresh connection" type setting to hopefully achieve the 60/18 again?
-
This might seem a silly question Alex, but what Modem and router are you using ? When was the last time you did a Firmware update on either ?