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[razpag]

Eric, you're a tough nut to crack old boy. 

"Looking at your recent speedtest, your IP profile has dropped down from 7150kbps to 500kbps. Our connection logs are also showing that your router is powered off during the night. Can you confirm to us if you are turning the router off?. If you are, can you ensure you keep your router switched on so your IP profile will raise back up to 7150kbps"

Granted, the above doesn't actually say in 'Bold, New Roman underlined' text that turning the router off every night, is the definitive cause of the EU's problem.  But my neighbours 8yr old child could draw the conclusion that it is highly likely to be the issue.

I don't think your ever going to agree with me on this Eric, so lets draw a line under it and you keep switching your router off and I'll keep mine on.
 

[HPsauce]

Remember this is a CS agent talking to a non-technical customer, caution is advised. 
They're just advising the customer what to do to get their service back ASAP, I'm wary of trying to read too much into it.
But it's all "grist to the mill" as they say.....

[waltergmw]

Hear hear HP !

Might I suggest that Eric is not a tough nut, but is attempting to establish systems design characteristics and parameters.
IMHO circumstantial evidence can help but is no substitute for the actual design specification.
Now all we need is for the design engineer to come forth!

Kind regards,
Walter

[Oranged]

There seems a very simple solution to this discussion.

2 of you on stable BT connections must experiment over a 2 week period then report back, one turns the router off every night and the other doesn't.

[roseway]

I'm tempted to do just that, but realistically it would need lots of participants to get a statistically significant result.

[waltergmw]

@ Oranged,

I'm afraid it's not so simple for me as I'm remote-monitoring a number of 2Wire 21CN ADSL1 services for different friends who might well be very peeved if I tried to ex-communicate them !
I can and do reboot modems remotely with some caution, but I can't actually switch them off remotely, nor would I wish to disturb their nocturnal activities !

Kind regards,
Walter

[bbnovice]

I don’t know if this helps or hinders the debate, but I’m on an ADSL2 4 Mb (Virgin National) fixed line (4mb capped according to RP and I must bow to his superior knowledge). I understand this is fairly a long line from the exchange and has a 54Mb attenuation downstream.

The line was configured to be fixed/capped in this way as a result of lots of problems I was experiencing  a few months ago  with stability of the connection and was done as part of the troubleshooting by the ISP.  As you might expect the connection speeds were going all over the place during this period. Finally what was probably a network fault was fixed as a result of the OR engineer changing the copper in the network and remaking connections.

However the fixed (capped) speed was left as it was after the network problem was resolved..

I now ALWAYS connect at 4Mb downstream and 864K upstream. It never ever ever varies. The router is turned off overnight and also sometimes on/off several times during the day as the PC is used by several users.

I’m more than happy with this as the connection is stable and reliable (fingers crossed!).

I’ll be the first to admit I’m not an expert, but I would ask:  Is the DLM facility worth it unless you are a attempting to wring the last ounce of speed out of the line?

[jeffbb]

Hi

Quote : However the fixed (capped) speed was left as it was after the network problem was resolved..


I now ALWAYS connect at 4Mb downstream and 864K upstream. It never ever ever varies. 

Because you are capped You will always connect at that capped speed . There is no negotiation to get the optimal speed for your line. You will either connect or not connect .

so switching off is not an issue . Every time  you connect each time it will try to connect at that one speed .


Regards Jeff

[burakkucat]

Quite recently I have disclosed that I have a LLU connection provided by TalkTalk for my telephone and broadband service. Taking a little bit of a deeper look, it can be seen that the backhaul is that of Opal Telecom -- so no surprises there.

In view of RP's recent advice with regards to a modem/router being left constantly powered up, I decided to ask at the TalkTalk Members' Forum what TT themselves would advise. Here follows the response I received --

Talk Talk has DLM (Dynamic Line Management) active on all lines by default, and this will try to give you the best balance of speed and stability.

If your router keeps switching off, DLM can see this as instability and consequently slow your speeds to the slowest available in order to 'stabilise' the line.

Because of this, it is best to leave the router on 24/7 365 days, and indeed all routers are designed to be used this way, the router is waiting for a device to need it, and they use very little power when left switched on.

If you do want to switch it off, it will in most cases cause no ill effects with DLM as long as there is a period of several hours between such power down/power up, so it is as always 'up to you', however in the same way that DLM can slow your line, if the router is left 'on', DLM will see a stable line and speed the connection up to the fastest available profile that your line can handle, however if the router is always switched off/on, then it will remain always on the default profile which is somewhat conservative for many lines in terms of speed.

For completeness, this is my acknowledgement --

Thank you for the welcome and your reply. Once I have finally finished rationalising my internal wiring and, hence, the odd disturbance to the connection I will then follow that advice.

Currently my target SNRM is set to 9 dB so, once everything is finished at my end, I will then request a reset to 6 dB. But that will be in the future.

[waltergmw]

Gentlefolk,

Does this not suggest that we need to record the workings for LLU and BT W DLM functions as it is unlikely that they will all use exactly the same logic?
Before 21CN I seem to remember that several people selected O2 services precisely because they did not like the way the BT DLM worked.

Kind regards,
Walter

[roseway]

You're quite right Walter. Some years ago, BT applied for a patent for the system which we call DLM, but undoubtedly the LLU operators use their own differently configured systems.

[razpag]

Quite recently I have disclosed that I have a LLU connection provided by TalkTalk for my telephone and broadband service. Taking a little bit of a deeper look, it can be seen that the backhaul is that of Opal Telecom -- so no surprises there.

In view of RP's recent advice with regards to a modem/router being left constantly powered up, I decided to ask at the TalkTalk Members' Forum what TT themselves would advise. Here follows the response I received --

Talk Talk has DLM (Dynamic Line Management) active on all lines by default, and this will try to give you the best balance of speed and stability.

If your router keeps switching off, DLM can see this as instability and consequently slow your speeds to the slowest available in order to 'stabilise' the line.

Because of this, it is best to leave the router on 24/7 365 days, and indeed all routers are designed to be used this way, the router is waiting for a device to need it, and they use very little power when left switched on.

If you do want to switch it off, it will in most cases cause no ill effects with DLM as long as there is a period of several hours between such power down/power up, so it is as always 'up to you', however in the same way that DLM can slow your line, if the router is left 'on', DLM will see a stable line and speed the connection up to the fastest available profile that your line can handle, however if the router is always switched off/on, then it will remain always on the default profile which is somewhat conservative for many lines in terms of speed.

For completeness, this is my acknowledgement --

Thank you for the welcome and your reply. Once I have finally finished rationalising my internal wiring and, hence, the odd disturbance to the connection I will then follow that advice.

Currently my target SNRM is set to 9 dB so, once everything is finished at my end, I will then request a reset to 6 dB. But that will be in the future.

Nice post B*Cat .........  However, I think we'll have to take photgraphic evidence of the actual DLM stripped intp pieces, before some of the lads will accept this advice ??!!

[roseway]

Nice post B*Cat .........  However, I think we'll have to take photgraphic evidence of the actual DLM stripped intp pieces, before some of the lads will accept this advice ??!!

Sorry to be argumentative, but the advice from TT doesn't support your viewpoint. For a start, it refers to a TalkTalk LLU connection, and their version of DLM is undoubtedly different to that used by BT. Secondly, they agree that switching off the router periodically doesn't carry a risk of triggering their DLM into slowing down the connection. What it may do in their system is result in a stuck profile.

I've never disputed that leaving the router on 24/7 is the best option in general, but switching it off each night won't result in the progressive slowdown which you have asserted.

[razpag]

Nice post B*Cat .........  However, I think we'll have to take photgraphic evidence of the actual DLM stripped intp pieces, before some of the lads will accept this advice ??!!

Sorry to be argumentative, but the advice from TT doesn't support your viewpoint. For a start, it refers to a TalkTalk LLU connection, and their version of DLM is undoubtedly different to that used by BT. Secondly, they agree that switching off the router periodically doesn't carry a risk of triggering their DLM into slowing down the connection. What it may do in their system is result in a stuck profile.

I've never disputed that leaving the router on 24/7 is the best option in general, but switching it off each night won't result in the progressive slowdown which you have asserted.

This is just getting plain silly. To reiterate, not only have I 'asserted' that switching the router off every evening can and does harm the speeds provided, I've also said that the ISP's I deal with on a daily basis give this information.

B*Cat has offered up this from his SP ........ "If your router keeps switching off, DLM can see this as instability and consequently slow your speeds to the slowest available in order to 'stabilise' the line." 

There's no conspiracy here Eric mate, this is what the engineers and ISP's have found to be the case. You may spend all day and night on here looking for the one exception to the rule that there always seems to be, but on the whole the message is switching your router off is detrimental to your speeds.

Accept defeat graciously sir. 

 

[waltergmw]

Gentlefolk,

I second Eric's comments. Unless and until we have the complete design of ALL DLMs published (Under suitable patent protection for the investors), we are all blundering around in the dark. Furthermore just because one piece of hearsay / advice works in one particular set of circumstances I cannot see there is any guarantee that it will be universally suitable.

Kind regards,
Walter