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[iwish]

This is a brand new corded phone, Its filtered 3 times
main face plate is adsl nation one then 2 normal filters just to be sure
This is from the test socket using a working filter
same thing again, lifting receiver on and off

[iwish]

ok my line and almost all lines in my village should be able to get 4.5mb ip profile but none do anymore
this is my upstream error burst when i use or get a phone call

Now i know this looks like a filter problem but i have ruled this out with a bt filter face plate less than 3 month old, a adsl nation face plate and 2 normal filters
also my ping is really bad

[iwish]

WAN:   0 days, 20:46:41

Noise Margin:     10.9  dB
Connection Rate:  3941  Kbps
Line Attenuation: 51.0  dB
Power:            0.0   dBm
Max Rate:         4560  Kbps
 
SuperFrames:      4400112
SF (CRC) Errors:  37213
Reed Solomon:     316808122
RS Corrected:     206374
RS Un-Corrected:  2515872
HEC:              7150
Errored Seconds:  1369
Severe ES:        900

Interleave Depth: 32
Bitswaps:         7325

[jeffbb]

Hi

These graphs show that there is something wrong with the connection you should NOT be getting any errors when using the phone . I am no expert on telephone line faults but it seems to me to be a external line problem (HR fault ?).Perhaps one of the more knowledgeable on phone connection can be more specific

see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/connectionprobs.htm for more info .

Regards Jeff
Edit  this type of fault shows the advantage of graphical data ,if you consider the average errors they are not excessive . Looking at the graphs clearly shows a direct correlation with the use of the Phone.

[iwish]

Hi

These graphs show that there is something wrong with the connection you should NOT be getting any errors when using the phone . I am no expert on telephone line faults but it seems to me to be a external line problem (HR fault ?).Perhaps one of the more knowledgeable on phone connection can be more specific

see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/connectionprobs.htm for more info .

Regards Jeff
Edit  this type of fault shows the advantage of graphical data ,if you consider the average errors they are not excessive . Looking at the graphs clearly shows a direct correlation with the use of the Phone.

Great news for once
BT engineer came to my house today and did all the test and found no fault and the line is ok and that's him done.
My response was no way buddy, Isp and also your own company have confirmed something is wrong by doing a hard cap to try settle the line from errors.
His response was, Ok will do one more test from the cabinet.
50 mins later i get a call, HRF at the exchange
Faulty hardware
I am very sorry that this was not found from your line
Fault will be fixed and a report will be sent to your ISP
He then said he had no idea why it did not show from my house but did at the cabinet

So if any one has had the trouble i have had, make sure they test the line all the way to the exchange before they say no fault and try send a bill
You have the right to use up the full 2 hours

My fault will be fixed by tomorrow
YAY

[waltergmw]

Hi iwish,

I do hope you haven't counted your chickens too soon !

Might I suggest just a little caution when suggesting you have a right to use up to two hours?
(I expect RazPag might well wish to add a few thoughts as well.)
I believe the two hours includes traveling time so the useful time is probably no more that 1.5 hours.
BT Openreach engineers are strongly encouraged to complete tasks in the shortest possible time so there is every reason for them to clear a job down as soon as possible even if that effectively means reporting No Fault Found**.
The end user should be aware of this situation and if possible the engineer should be encouraged to leave no stone unturned.
This usually translates to tea and bacon butties in the morning and biscuits in the afternoon !
A happy bunny is then more likely to bend the rules and go digging a few more holes for you !

** The longer term result is that some investigative tasks actually take many more time slots that they should.
A secondary effect is that "quick & dirty" bodges can be left for months if not years and actually reduce the reliability of the network.

Here are some examples:-

http://www.ewhurst-broadband.org.uk/?p=474

http://www.ewhurst-broadband.org.uk/?p=590

Kind regards,
Walter

[iwish]

Hi iwish,

I do hope you haven't counted your chickens too soon !

Might I suggest just a little caution when suggesting you have a right to use up to two hours?
(I expect RazPag might well wish to add a few thoughts as well.)
I believe the two hours includes travelling time so the useful time is probably no more that 1.5 hours.
BT Openreach engineers are strongly encouraged to complete tasks in the shortest possible time so there is every reason for them to clear a job down as soon as possible even if that effectively means reporting No Fault Found**.
The end user should be aware of this situation and if possible the engineer should be encouraged to leave no stone unturned.
This usually translates to tea and bacon butties in the morning and biscuits in the afternoon !
A happy bunny is then more likely to bend the rules and go digging a few more holes for you !

** The longer term result is that some investigative tasks actually take many more time slots that they should.
A secondary effect is that "quick & dirty" bodges can be left for months if not years and actually reduce the reliability of the network.

Here are some examples:-

http://www.ewhurst-broadband.org.uk/?p=474

http://www.ewhurst-broadband.org.uk/?p=590

Kind regards,
Walter

Well i agree with what you say but if you can clearly see there is a fault with the amount of errors and has been ongoing then the engineer should do everything he can to find said fault
How many in the uk have a real fault that is with the  BT  line but have been told line is clear and been hit with a bill
I got hit with 2 bills that where then cleared after another engineer did take time to look and find the fault
How about i send BT my isp bill from November to now due to the fact i have been unable to use my adsl

Could not download as would die two mins into it
And online games have been a big no no

If they can send me a bill for a line with faults for no fault found then can i send them a bill for a line with faults and the fault now found

Something really needs to change about the way BT work

[razpag]

Hi iwish,

I do hope you haven't counted your chickens too soon !

Might I suggest just a little caution when suggesting you have a right to use up to two hours?
(I expect RazPag might well wish to add a few thoughts as well.)
I believe the two hours includes travelling time so the useful time is probably no more that 1.5 hours.
BT Openreach engineers are strongly encouraged to complete tasks in the shortest possible time so there is every reason for them to clear a job down as soon as possible even if that effectively means reporting No Fault Found**.
The end user should be aware of this situation and if possible the engineer should be encouraged to leave no stone unturned.
This usually translates to tea and bacon butties in the morning and biscuits in the afternoon !
A happy bunny is then more likely to bend the rules and go digging a few more holes for you !

** The longer term result is that some investigative tasks actually take many more time slots that they should.
A secondary effect is that "quick & dirty" bodges can be left for months if not years and actually reduce the reliability of the network.

Here are some examples:-

http://www.ewhurst-broadband.org.uk/?p=474

http://www.ewhurst-broadband.org.uk/?p=590

Kind regards,
Walter

Well i agree with what you say but if you can clearly see there is a fault with the amount of errors and has been ongoing then the engineer should do everything he can to find said fault
How many in the uk have a real fault that is with the  BT  line but have been told line is clear and been hit with a bill
I got hit with 2 bills that where then cleared after another engineer did take time to look and find the fault
How about i send BT my isp bill from November to now due to the fact i have been unable to use my adsl

Could not download as would die two mins into it
And online games have been a big no no

If they can send me a bill for a line with faults for no fault found then can i send them a bill for a line with faults and the fault now found

Something really needs to change about the way BT work

Only a short time to reply here guys, as off out with a few friends in 30 mins.

Walter, the 2hrs is actually from the minute you arrive at the premises, and doesn't include travel time mate. Also, the 2hr rule ONLY applies to work inside the premises and this can be extended if the SP allows extra TRC banding (Time Related Charges) on the job. If a fault is found on the 'network' MPF, then there is NO time limit to cure the fault, it is in effect treated like any other type of network affecting fault, ie) A short-circuit, a disconnection, Battery/Earth contacts etc etc .

Now for the 'legals'. Iwish, erroring circuits are not ,(as yet), considered to be an Openreach problem. By that I mean we have a set standard to test to that is covered by SIN349 (Standard Installation Note). This SIN was introduced to cover low frequency circuits, so isn't really ideal for Broadband circuits, however, the testing outputs have been upped from 1.6Khz, to 100Khz (unfortunately, not the reqd. 300Khz) so they are moving in the right direction.
So the tests are a PQT, an Eclipse and a Synch check. If the SP has requested (and 90% of the time they do), we also perform a co-op call with them to check the radius log and agree with the circuits stability etc etc. If all 4 'tasks'pass, we are actually required to complete the job and move on.

Will try and go a little further tomorrow, but i'm out with the wife and friends very shortly.

[iwish]

Well its Saturday and still not been fixed

WAN:   0 days, 21:46:49
Noise Margin:     12.5  dB
Connection Rate:  3714  Kbps
Line Attenuation: 51.0  dB
Power:            0.0   dBm
Max Rate:         4444  Kbps
 
SuperFrames:      4613592
SF (CRC) Errors:  49559
Reed Solomon:     154555342
RS Corrected:     371911
RS Un-Corrected:  1434240
HEC:              25993
Errored Seconds:  1503
Severe ES:        1038

Interleave Depth: 16
Bitswaps:         7423

[iwish]

Now for the 'legals'. Iwish, erroring circuits are not ,(as yet), considered to be an Openreach problem. By that I mean we have a set standard to test to that is covered by SIN349 (Standard Installation Note). This SIN was introduced to cover low frequency circuits, so isn't really ideal for Broadband circuits, however, the testing outputs have been upped from 1.6Khz, to 100Khz (unfortunately, not the reqd. 300Khz) so they are moving in the right direction

So because BT are unable to properly test the adsl side of things then we should foot any call out bill 

[HPsauce]

testing outputs have been upped from 1.6Khz, to 100Khz (unfortunately, not the reqd. 300Khz) so they are moving in the right direction.

Hmmm, 300Khz "required". 
100Khz is still in the upstream frequencies for ADSL2+
300Khz is a little way into downstream frequencies, but not far.

ADSL1 I think goes up to about 1Mhz and ADSL2+ to around 2Mhz on downstream so there's a VERY long way to go yet before anyone would consider the testing even approaching "thorough" in relation to broadband. 

[waltergmw]

Perhaps we might all realise that testing the degrading aluminium and copper network is another excuse for obfuscation and procrastination.

Now if somebody could run with the idea that FTTP would
a) provide reasonable symmetric internet access
b) save vast amounts of third party involvement
d) provide revenue to the implementor
e) make the UK competitive again in web services

we would all be far better off.

Kind reagrds,
Walter

[razpag]

Now for the 'legals'. Iwish, erroring circuits are not ,(as yet), considered to be an Openreach problem. By that I mean we have a set standard to test to that is covered by SIN349 (Standard Installation Note). This SIN was introduced to cover low frequency circuits, so isn't really ideal for Broadband circuits, however, the testing outputs have been upped from 1.6Khz, to 100Khz (unfortunately, not the reqd. 300Khz) so they are moving in the right direction

So because BT are unable to properly test the adsl side of things then we should foot any call out bill 

You do. Or did you mean that you shouldn't foot any call-out bill ??

Iwish ... we are "properly testing" circuits as laid out in the SIN349 guidelines. All SP's are aware of these testing parameters before they install their 'kit' in the exchanges. I don't know quite why the tests are carried out at 100Khz and sometimes 300Khz (if the engineer has, and uses a HAWK remote unit). I can only imagine that there has to be some kind of cut-off point ??. We have seen quite rapid changes over the last 12yrs, with the latest ADSL transmitting at up to 2.2Mhz. A helluva jump from bog-standard PSTN, up to 4khz frequencies !!.
I personally think we are at saturation with regard to any higher frequencies being pumped down the network, but our boffins at Martlesham will prove me wrong I'm sure. There have been trials done where 100Meg has been achieved over copper cables by the total removal of any 'Noise' present. But these were lab conditions, not sure if it would work in the real world ??

[jeffbb]

Hi

No doubt the sharp end staff are carrying out the prescribed tests . I don't think that anyone is suggesting otherwise .The point is that the "network Industry" seem to have 2 standards .That is Openreach appear to only able to test for  Voice communication standard . Whilst the internet requires tests  for much higher freequency range .BT(wholesale?) is getting revenue for the lease of the telephone network for ADSL ,ADSL2+ use . Surely they should be fit for purpose .No one appears to have any responsibility for providing a QUALITY service Or from what has been said in previous posts any appropriate tests for the Internet requirements . The end users (not normally technical people) should be able to use the Internet without having to jump through hoops between  BT (Openreach)and ISPs when there are demonstrable problems with the connection. Obviously if a users internal wiring is PROVED to be faulty then a call out fee is reasonable . What is NOT reasonable is that it seems that if BT cannot find the fault  ,for whatever reason there is this threat of charging the end user regardless of the fact that the users internal connection is OK.

Regards Jeff 

[iwish]

Hi

No doubt the sharp end staff are carrying out the prescribed tests . I don't think that anyone is suggesting otherwise .The point is that the "network Industry" seem to have 2 standards .That is Openreach appear to only able to test for  Voice communication standard . Whilst the internet requires tests  for much higher freequency range .BT(wholesale?) is getting revenue for the lease of the telephone network for ADSL ,ADSL2+ use . Surely they should be fit for purpose .No one appears to have any responsibility for providing a QUALITY service Or from what has been said in previous posts any appropriate tests for the Internet requirements . The end users (not normally technical people) should be able to use the Internet without having to jump through hoops between  BT (Openreach)and ISPs when there are demonstrable problems with the connection. Obviously if a users internal wiring is PROVED to be faulty then a call out fee is reasonable . What is NOT reasonable is that it seems that if BT cannot find the fault  ,for whatever reason there is this threat of charging the end user regardless of the fact that the users internal connection is OK.

Regards Jeff 

And that can be proved by the fact My engineer on Friday was about to walk away saying my line had past all tests and me getting hit with a large bill, Only for him to carry out one more test at the cabinet due to the fact we got peed at him.
£50 mins later he calls back to say he has now found the fault
I want someone to explain why the fault that i have with my adsl could not be found from my house at the test socket but could from the cabinet
If BT are going to charge you for a fault not found then they should have the best equipment to find any and every fault, And please don't say they have as the so called equipment could not find it from my house