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[Kie24k]

If it was only a slight noise on speaker I don't think that is the problem.

This can be heard when the speaker is off, it's only a slight "hissing" noise though. The thing is, whatever the problem is, it's still causing disconnections / loss of sync to exchange (regardless of what equipment we use).

Edit: We have now been advised to log a voice fault with BT (which I was hoping it wouldn't come to that), fair enough. But what I'm dreading is the engineering claiming everything is fine, then charging us

Any advice on this?

Many Thanks

[BritBrat]

Who advised you to report a voice fault?

If it was BT that is a good thing.

If you have tried everything from the master socket and none of your equipment is faulty you should not be charged.

Make a note of what the engineer finds wrong.

[Kie24k]

Hi, just thought I would update you all:

Hi,

An engineer has just left our premisis, claiming he couldn't hear the noise. However, he has done checks:

1. He connected some test equipment to our master socket
2. He went up the telegraph pole which our line is connected to

3. He then came back and replaced our master socket:
The master socket with the "BT Open Reach" logo on; only one socket on the face plate for a phone type (Basically it isn't an ADSL split/filtered face plate).

4. He then said he will go do some checks at our junction box / green cab, then to the exchange. I have no idea if he actually changed anything.

5. Finally he came back to our house, did some more tests, and asked if our Broadband was OK. I said we have been experiencing frequent drop outs on our line.

The problem still remains, we can still hear a slight hiss on our line and we can't be sure if our line will remain stable. The noise margins are low on the downstream. However the modem has remained sync since the engineer has left. I will be sure to update if the line drops.

Our current stats since the new master socket was installed (and he had left):

Original Sync: http://pastebin.com/5yR2CcYZ
Updated (14:43): http://pastebin.com/UWaSSVK8

--

Any further advice would be appreciated.

Many Thanks

[razpag]

It sounds to me like .....

A) You got a decent engineer

B) Because he climbed the pole and visited the PCP to presumably check for loose connections. He would have been quite within his rights to have just left once he had stored a good 'Eclipse' Line Test and verified there was no noise.


My question to you is, how is it you can hear noise, but the engineer can't Did he demonstrate to you there was no noise on the line ?? Did you not have a listen yourself ?? I personally would have asked the engineer to wait whilst you had a listen for noise on the line.

[Kie24k]

It sounds to me like .....

A) You got a decent engineer

B) Because he climbed the pole and visited the PCP to presumably check for loose connections. He would have been quite within his rights to have just left once he had stored a good 'Eclipse' Line Test and verified there was no noise.


My question to you is, how is it you can hear noise, but the engineer can't Did he demonstrate to you there was no noise on the line ?? Did you not have a listen yourself ?? I personally would have asked the engineer to wait whilst you had a listen for noise on the line.

A. I completely agree with you there, I was surprised when he said he was going to climb up the pole, and even more so when he said he would also check the green cab and exchange.

B. You tell me! It is very very very quiet "hissing" sound you can hear, which comes and goes. Also other relatives living in this house hold have confirmed they can hear this. So it's safe to say I'm not going mad! 

Unfortunately he didn't, and of course but not while he was here. I listened before he knocked on the door, and then after he left. Could it be possible he claimed there were no noise due to the fact it was within some sort of acceptable range?

Anyway, I've got in touch with Be again to let them know about the engineer visit, and have also provided graphs of my recent drops (this was after the visit). Have a look yourself:



[attachment deleted by admin]

[waltergmw]

Did the engineer only investigate your line from an audio viewpoint or were broadband signals discussed ?
Perhaps not every engineer is familiar with Routerstats ?
Did you show him some of your previous graphs ?
Did anything happen after his excursions and were any recordings made?
Did he have a JDSU tester ?

Kind regards,
Walter

[Kie24k]

Did the engineer only investigate your line from an audio viewpoint or were broadband signals discussed ?
Perhaps not every engineer is familiar with Routerstats ?
Did you show him some of your previous graphs ?
Did anything happen after his excursions and were any recordings made?
Did he have a JDSU tester ?

Kind regards,
Walter

1. Yes, the only time the engineer mentioned broadband was when he returned from the exchange; "Does your Broadband work OK?" to which I obviously replied no.

2. I wad avoiding mentioning anything to do with our internet connection since people have posted from experience that they tend to blame the customer's equipment.

3. No, I did think about printing them off for him to see but then I come back to the word 'Broadband' or 'Internet' being used.

4. Not that I know of, but there slight hiss is still there. He denied he heard it, although like I say above, other members of this household have confirmed this slight noise.

5. I'm not sure. There was like a small black device with a red light on it and it said something about 'bit swapping' on it which he left on while checking the pole, exchange and cabinet.

Edit: Dropped again, 17:21
See attached graph.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Oranged]

Not surprised it disconnected when I saw the 2 pastebin files and the SNRM dropping in your first post after the engineer visit.

I'm on O2 with the same attenuation as you and your sync after the engineer visit was spot on, my sync is currently 9976kbps and my down SNRM is 4.5dB but during daylight it's 6dB. But yours was way too low to hang on after dark.

It looks like the fault is further away from you than the NTE5.

[Kie24k]

Not surprised it disconnected when I saw the 2 pastebin files and the SNRM dropping in your first post after the engineer visit.

I'm on O2 with the same attenuation as you and your sync after the engineer visit was spot on, my sync is currently 9976kbps and my down SNRM is 4.5dB but during daylight it's 6dB. But yours was way too low to hang on after dark.

It looks like the fault is further away from you than the NTE5.

At the moment it does seem to be that way, he even replaced our master socket today (not sure why though).

One question springs to mind. Are Open Reach engineers allowed to change anything with Be's equipment at my exchange? Or are they only allowed when instructed to by Be? At the moment I'm thinking there might be a problem with their equipment since everything else seems to have been ruled out.

The not so funny thing is that when we were with BT Total Broadband (G.MT modulation), we were synchronized at 7Mbit and the connection was STABLE. Here are some stats I dug up, the day before our migration took place (Notice the connection up-time!):

Sync with BT Total Broadband, Option 3 - A day before migration to Be:

Code: [Select]

--
NOTE: THIS IS NOT RECENT STATS, AND ARE FROM ANOTHER PROVIDER.
--

adslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 448 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7104 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: G.DMT
Channel: Interleave
Trellis: ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.6 22.0
Attn(dB): 35.0 18.5
Pwr(dBm): 19.8 12.2
Max(Kbps): 7648 1136
Rate (Kbps): 7104 448
G.dmt framing
K: 223(0) 15
R: 16 16
S: 1 8
D: 32 4
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 1 1
B: 168 15
M: 1 8
T: 1 1
R: 16 16
S: 1.0946 9.0000
L: 1352 128
D: 32 4
Counters
SF: 8816782 8816891
SFErr: 34 1
RS: 599541206 74942570
RSCorr: 236640 10
RSUnCorr: 320 0

HEC: 29 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 2511285955 0
Data Cells: 46715642 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 25 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 0
AS: 149881

INP: 1.51 2.00
PER: 1.91 1.96
delay: 8.75 9.00
OR: 29.23 28.44

Bitswap: 0 0

Total time = 1 days 17 hours 44 min 50 sec
SF = 8838375
CRC = 34
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 25
Latest 1 day time = 17 hours 44 min 50 sec
SF = 3758182
CRC = 12
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 10
Latest 15 minutes time = 14 min 50 sec
SF = 52392
CRC = 1
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 1
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52982
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
SF = 5080193
CRC = 22
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 15
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52864
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52923
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52982
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
Showtime Drop Reason: 0
Last Retrain Reason: 0

Stats now (as of 19.1.11, 19:12):

Code: [Select]

adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 8000
Max:    Upstream rate = 1265 Kbps, Downstream rate = 10037 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 1265 Kbps, Downstream rate = 6721 Kbps

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   ADSL2+
TPS-TC:                 ATM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        7.8             6.6
Attn(dB):        37.5            20.7
Pwr(dBm):        18.8            12.4
                        ADSL2 framing
MSGc:           59              16
B:              96              35
M:              1               1
T:              2               3
R:              16              0
S:              0.4969          0.9762
L:              1819            295
D:              64              1
                        Counters
SF:             400970          402050
SFErr:          1236            135
RS:             52126124                0
RSCorr:         5795108         0
RSUnCorr:       1538            0

HEC:            262             35
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    102640399               19301260
Data Cells:     5244057         915561
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               5415

ES:             2617            293
SES:            451             0
UAS:            417             417
AS:             6477

INP:            2.25            0.00
PER:            16.15           16.10
delay:          7.95            0.24
OR:             32.19           10.92

Bitswap:        842             1

Total time = 7 hours 28 min 9 sec
FEC:            49224003                0
CRC:            24864           465
ES:             2617            293
SES:            451             0
UAS:            417             417
LOS:            12              0
LOF:            108             0
Latest 15 minutes time = 13 min 9 sec
FEC:            31948           0
CRC:            4               6
ES:             3               5
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            2501            0
CRC:            0               99
ES:             0               60
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 7 hours 28 min 9 sec
FEC:            49224003                0
CRC:            24864           465
ES:             2617            293
SES:            451             0
UAS:            417             417
LOS:            12              0
LOF:            108             0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Since Link time = 1 hours 47 min 55 sec
FEC:            5795108         0
CRC:            1236            135
ES:             395             84
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0


[razpag]

Hi

Lots of questions being asked. To try and clarify a little better ......... There are only 2 types of engineering visit, NETWORK or BROADBAND (Broadband is split into 5 product types of visit, ADSL, SFI1, SFI2, RADE1 and Broadband Boost). A Broadband job will only be raised if the line tests ok via a RAT or TAMS test from your SP.
The reason being that if there is an electrical fault on the initial test, then that will probably be the cause of the poor Broadband behaviour. Ergo, a network visit will be raised and once the electrical fault has been remedied, generally, and in the majority of cases,  the Broadband returns to being stable again. Makes perfect sense.

However, we do get the odd occasion where the LTOK and there is an audible noise on the line. Usually it's a crackling type of noise associated with a high-resistance fault (ie- a wire corroded and breaking down). But then there are also hisses, humming, whirring, clicking noises as well. The problem is that if the noise isn't present whilst the engineer is on-site and the line tests electrically OK, there's a very good chance you will get billed for the visit. I dont want to get into the semantics of the billing procedure, just want to make you aware of it.

So, to move on, it would appear you have had a network engineering visit to work on the low frequency (the telephone) part of your DSL circuit. Whether the engineer who visits is qualified to work on broadband or not, he really isn't at liberty to 'fault' this higher frequency part of the circuit. There are a lot of SMPF circuits out there (IE- different SP's for telephony and broadband to the same premises), and i'm sure if say Tiscali are paying for an engineer to visit to repair their low-frequency part of the circuit, they wouldn't be too happy to learn that the engineer then spent more time working on the high-frequency part of the circuit that is owned by, say, AOL.

You really need one of the broadband product engineering visits raised, but just to make you aware again, we do not read graphs nor are expected too at this present time. We are only tasked to test the line to SIN349 standards. If the tests pass and your installation is up to par, then as far as Openreach are concerned, thats business concluded.

Believe you me, we engineers hope that in time we are allowed to 'dig' a little deeper and utilise DMT , SNR graphs in our faulting procedures. Alas, at this present time it is not something we are supposed to do.

[Kie24k]

Thank you for that useful information razpag

For Broadband engineers, since I'm with a different provider (Be), would it be up to them to have one come out? And who (if any) would face a charge?

Also, the latest from Be is that they want to switch us to a "pure ADSL" modulation, then monitor our line. From my point of view, this seems like another way to cover up the fault, rather than actually fixing it, and I'm guessing this will have an impact on the rate we can actually sync at.

[HPsauce]

this seems like another way to cover up the fault

I think you're being overly suspicious or uncharitable (or worse), that's a pretty standard diagnostics procedure; I imagine what you mean is ADSL1 rather than ADSL2+ and would be an absolutely normal thing to do.

[Oranged]

that's a pretty standard diagnostics procedure; I imagine what you mean is ADSL1 rather than ADSL2+ and would be an absolutely normal thing to do.

It's also a normal method of producing a stable connection so that the ISP can show that they have honoured the broadband supply contract terms (without having to call out the Openreach broadband engineers) 

[Kie24k]

this seems like another way to cover up the fault

I think you're being overly suspicious or uncharitable (or worse), that's a pretty standard diagnostics procedure; I imagine what you mean is ADSL1 rather than ADSL2+ and would be an absolutely normal thing to do.

Sorry I should of worded that differently. What I mean is if our line remains stable on ADSL1, I would think Be would be happy to leave it there rather than investigating it further. But since it has worked on ADSL2+ for over a year, it wouldn't make sense I completely understand that this is procedure though.

Could this test be to rule out their equipment also?

[HPsauce]

What I mean is if our line remains stable on ADSL1, I would think Be would be happy to leave it there rather than investigating it further.

No.

There are some long lines (and corresponding discussions in the Be forums) which are marginal between ADSL2+ and ADSL1 and the final decision is that a better, stabler service is achieved by "locking" it into ADSL1 mode. But I've never seen it even suggested that it's used as an excuse to avoid investigating problems.