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Author Topic: anyone on 21cn using SNR MARGIN tweak ?  (Read 3111 times)

jeffbb

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anyone on 21cn using SNR MARGIN tweak ?
« on: May 30, 2010, 11:10:36 PM »

Hi
Just checking to see if its possible to tweak SNR Margin on 21CN. There appears to be some confusion on this issue .A user on ZEN is adamant that it is impossible ??. He states that the NEW automated line management system (ALMS) (used to be DLM) prohibits any tweaking. If this is correct then How can the client (ISP) now change the SNR margin? as per
http://www.btwholesale-briefingportal.com/brief/view/8c81aa12577e7e64903e228f53da97c9

Regards Jeff
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: anyone on 21cn using SNR MARGIN tweak ?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 12:29:52 AM »

@Jeff,

As far as I can ascertain, ISPs can't actually 'change' the SNR Margin, even by using CCSNR.  If an ISP wants a margin adjustment then all he can do, as was ever the case, is to plead with BTw to apply a manually assigned given DLM profile (target margin) and then let DLM take over again from that new starting point. 

When an ISP invokes CCSNR, I don't think he specifies any particular target margin, it simply restarts the 10-day training period.  The target margin, with current DLM, then starts again at 6dB as that's the value for start of training, but it's actual value is still 100% dictated by BTw.  If BT's 'new' DLM behaves differently during training, then I'd imagine a CCSNR would simply invoke that new behaviour.

Can't comment on possibilities of tweaking on 21CN, though my guess is that it would still be possible.  However, I'm convinced that the vast majority of 'tweakers' are trying, naively, to make their lines go faster than it's really capable of, and that is often going to end badly.  In that case, tweaking will simply increase instability and encourage  DLM to make further attempts to stabilise the line by raising the target, and I wonder if maybe this 'new' DLM is just getting quicker at doing so, thereby rendering tweaking rather pointless?
 
- 7LM
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roseway

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Re: anyone on 21cn using SNR MARGIN tweak ?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 06:59:57 AM »

We had a bit of a discussion about the subject here. I really would like to see a definitive answer, but BT don't seem to like being too specific about how their systems work.

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jeffbb

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Re: anyone on 21cn using SNR MARGIN tweak ?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 07:31:59 PM »

Hi

quote : Can't comment on possibilities of tweaking on 21CN,

That is exactly the question? .

quote :tweakers' are trying, naively, to make their lines go faster than it's really capable of

Not so sure about that . It is certainly useful to get around the unreasonable length of time it takes to recover from a bad set of synch events .
.
In fact some tweakers do opt for stability over speed .

Regards Jeff :)
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: anyone on 21cn using SNR MARGIN tweak ?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 08:16:10 PM »

It is certainly useful to get around the unreasonable length of time it takes to recover from a bad set of synch events .
I'm not convinced that's the case.  By fighting the DLM algorithms, it may actually increase, rather than get around, the amount of time DLM takes to recover.

In fact some tweakers do opt for stability over speed .

Yes, and you may recall I'm one.   :)  By doing so, I was able to 'trick' DLM into reducing my margin, after which it has stayed resolutely at 6dB, leaving me a happy bunny with no more tweaking needed.   But I still suspect most (by no means all) tweakers are simply chasing after unrealistic connection speeds.

Getting back to the main question, I had some more thoughts...  If the new DLM uses Seamless rate adaptation to achieve stability then there is no reconnection involved in the adjustments, and so the concept of a 'target' margin largely evaporates.    The DSLAM would simply react to changes in the end-user's router's actual real-time SNRM, which all routers report truthfully (regardless of target tweaks), and adjust the bit loadings using SRA until the DSLAM saw the margin the it wanted to see.  If that's how it works, (a very big IF), then tweaking probably wouldn't be possible.  What do you think, Jeff?
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jeffbb

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Re: anyone on 21cn using SNR MARGIN tweak ?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 09:09:01 PM »

Hi
I am not sure  ??? That is why I was hoping to find somebody on 21cn who could with certainty say that tweaking was successful or otherwise . At the moment there is no Hard evidence . The user that maintains its NOT possible, is not supporting his opinion with facts . I have tried to google with no luck . Unfortunately There are no plans around here to get 21cn so I won't be able to try it . Reading what information there is does not seem to  indicate any vast change in the way the ALMS works compared to the DLM.
Only time will tell.

Regards Jeff
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