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Author Topic: Hey, is my connection good or bad?  (Read 10408 times)

Awais

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Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« on: November 15, 2008, 08:03:37 PM »

Here are my stats, do you think i can get more out of my line?

At the moment the SNR is on 2.0 and never fluctuates.

Link Information
         
Uptime:   0 days, 20:22:37
Modulation:   G.992.5 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:   1,343 / 20,920
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]:   916.30 / 5.65
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:   12.0 / 17.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:   2.0 / 6.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:   7.5 / 2.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote):   TMMB / µ
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote):   0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):   55 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down):   0 / 2,921,809
CRC Errors (Up/Down):   26,951 / 210
HEC Errors (Up/Down):   621,628 / 177

I think i can get more out of my line, possibly the full 24meg (my isp is Be) if i resync at 12PM.
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Imagine.

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2008, 09:03:28 PM »

Hmm I'm no expert but I don't think you could with just 2db snm doesn't seem likely and seeing as you sync at approx 20mbps you should be getting throughput of 19mbps which is brilliant so my answer is no you can't get much more but I'd say you should wait for the main ADSL "Wizards" to get here.
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Imagine™

HPsauce

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2008, 09:17:06 PM »

There's something wrong, probably your wiring.
Assuming you're on Be you should be getting the full 24mbps as your line appears to be very short (500 metres?)
How far is the exchange from your home?
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dizzy4528

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2008, 10:18:47 PM »

Please give me this line  >:(
63.5db attenuation
1760kbps max
1.5mb profile
 
some people dont realise how lucky they are. :no:
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kitz

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2008, 11:32:30 PM »

>> possibly the full 24meg (my isp is Be) if i resync at 12PM.

Nope! Not a cat in hells chance!
You can only get a speed increase if your SNRM goes up (Youd need an increase of another apprx 10dB to do that).

What would be a good idea though is either

  • Raising a ticket to get Interleaving removed OR
  • Doing it yourself in the user control panel (Bottom right).


I'm also close to the exchange - iirc Interleaving on my line costs me circa 4-5Mbps of sync.


A word of advice BEFORE you do that -
From your stats it looks like you are SNR tweaking - Take your Target SNR back to the default or 3dB.
You currently have some FECs - which whilst acceptable, once interleaving is switched off theres the possibility those can/will become CRCs.

Getting interleaving switched off will give you the required speed boost youre looking for on that particular line..  but you may likely need a bit more SNR to avoid the CRCs racking up and becoming more serious errors.
So if you take interleaving off - BUT go back to the 3dB profile you should be fine.

Good Luck let us know how it goes.
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HPsauce

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2008, 09:16:12 AM »

Kitz, don't you think there's maybe a wiring problem as well or is it just limited by interleaving?
Surely at that very low attenuation you'd get those speeds without any tweaking at all?

But Fastpath is definitely worth trying first, on a standard noise margin?

(My attenuation is 21.5 versus his 6.5 and I'm running a lot faster - currently 22978kbps)
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kitz

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2008, 09:57:53 AM »

I'd like to see what its like with interleaving off first.

I remember the 1st day I connected to Be and being a bit disappointed as to why my sync was so much lower than anticipated. (just under 19Mbps).  Got interleaving removed and put on the 3.5dB profile and resync'd  at 24574 kbps.

When I moved to Annex_M, Be accidentally switched Interleaving back on my line.
At first I didnt notice it had been..  and I couldnt understand why Annex M took me down to a sync speed of <19Mbps again.
After they switched it back off again it immediately went up to 23Mbps.
Interleaving 'costs me' circa 4.5Mbps, without even touching the SNRM.

The higher the sync speed, the more allowance has to be made for overheads  that comes with interleaving.

I must admit I would expect a bit more from that line..  but if he gets interleaving switched off.. and then posts the stats again then we can see whats were playing with.

Be blocking Tones 476-499 doesnt help much either - the tones after those are only used by those on a very good line.. and the gap at 2053kHz serves to knock back speeds further.
I guess I'm just going off what Ive seen on my own line and how much interleaving knocks me back :(

If he has tweaked on a 585v6 then he must take it back to default settings - otherwise if Be put him on a 3dB from the default 6dB profile, he wont stand a cat in hells chance of trying to sync.  The 585 remembers the settings "sync at 3dB below target set on dslam".  Therefore 3dB minus 3dB (going down from 6dB = 0dB SNR)
Yes I learnt that the hard way  :-[





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HPsauce

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 10:14:03 AM »

I know we're digressing a bit, but why do Be not use those top-end tones?
Looking at my graph via DMT I'd be getting maybe 8 bits per tone though I don't know how to translate that into speed/throughput.
As they are pretty high frequencies (over 2MHz obviously) they should have a significant data capacity, depending on the modulation used. We're looking at a potential 50MHz of lost signal capacity across 25 tones, which is a lot!
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Rahat

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2008, 12:22:00 PM »

Oh yh, he's my friend and i introduced him to the site. I'll get him to reply back as soon as possible.

He's very lucky  >:(
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Awais

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2008, 01:17:23 PM »

How do i turn interleaving off in the user control panel and where is it?
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Awais

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 01:48:45 PM »

There's something wrong, probably your wiring.
Assuming you're on Be you should be getting the full 24mbps as your line appears to be very short (500 metres?)
How far is the exchange from your home?

exchange is about 2min walk loll  :-[ from my house
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HPsauce

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2008, 02:20:09 PM »

How do i turn interleaving off in the user control panel and where is it?
Assuming you're on Be (you didn't actually say) that function isn't 100% reliable.
Best to raise a ticket and ask for it, but be specific on all parameters,
e.g. ask for a 6dB fastpath profile.

I know Kitz said 3dB, but 6dB is standard and it would be useful to see what you get with standard settings plus Fastpath. You can always ask for 3dB Fastpath profile later.
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kitz

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2008, 10:18:11 PM »

I know we're digressing a bit, but why do Be not use those top-end tones?
/snip/
I don't know how to translate that into speed/throughput.

Impossible to say - it would entirely depend on how many bits your line will be able to allocated to those missing tones.
each bit in a channel is 3dB of REAL SNR for that particular frequency with a Max bit allocation of 15 per tone. (min 2 bits or 6dB SNR).

Therefore the really close lines will loose more speed than a line which is a tad further away.  If your still getting a good strong signal with good bit allocation at tone 475, then the amount of speed lost for those missing tones would be more than someone whose line is already starting to tail off and the router is only able to allocate say 8 bits to those particular frequencies.

I estimate that block could carry up to a maximum of around 1.5Mbps.
Blocking those tones shifts the bit allocation to higher frequencies which obviously are more likely to be attenuated.  Therefore the the SNR wont be quite as good for the higher frequencies after the block, than they would have been at the slightly lower frequencies which are blocked. 


At a guess for a line thats doing pretty nicely before the blocked tones - circa 1Mb loss. On a much shorter line the loss would be negliable, since anything below 6dB is going to be discarded.
On my own line which is allocating 12 bits per tone at around carrier 475, I'd say 1.1 Mbps. (I'd prevously worked out that my own bitrate is 4.14kbps - sad git that I am). 


Off the top of my head based on your bit to bin allocation, I'd say around 800 kbps loss would not be too far off the mark. 
- BTW the x100 is a co-incidence that doesnt indicate the underlying calculation but is based instead on your bitrate being similar to mine which Im not sure if everyone's is.  and tbh Im not sure how interleaving would affect the sync and bitrate... just that I know it does.


As regards to why Be do this - very good question.. theres been various theories and explanations given by Be, some of which turned out to be false which Brett did admit when queried further.  There isnt a real reason that I know of and afaik they are the only provider which are blocking them. 




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For a really quick and nasty cross check you can divide your sync speed by the no of channels in use for the downstream (say 452) to get the average speed allocation per channel then multiply that by the no of blocked tones (24).
Obviously this later calculation wont work very well if your bit allocation before those blocked channels is low, Mine comes out at 1.25Mb which is a bit higher because its based on averages rather than actual bits allocated.
I cant stress enough that this method is very crude since a tone which is carrying 15 bits obviously carries more data than a bin which only has 6 bits, and therefore the more bits the higher sync speed, so it will always over-estimate based on 15 bits.
* kitz hopes Ive done my sums right.
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HPsauce

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2008, 10:36:44 PM »

Thanks for that Kitz, however I have 2 basic questions probably due to not knowing in detail how it works:
1. Bits per tone; yes but bits per tone per what? (e.g. millisecond - seems unlikely) i.e. how do you translate that number, displayed in DMT graphs for example, into actual transmission capacity (data rate) per tone?
2. Capacity per tone surely cannot be equal. It seems fundamental to me that a low-number tone of around 150kHz is capable of carrying a LOT less data than a high-number one of over 2000kHz.

Time to do some detailed reading for my own education, but where?  ???
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Rahat

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Re: Hey, is my connection good or bad?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2008, 10:55:27 PM »

Kitz, i went on the member centre on BE site for him via remote and ticked optimal settings and gaming mode on and when his router resynced it was still only 21meg.
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