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Author Topic: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?  (Read 11240 times)

Weaver

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2022, 01:24:33 PM »

@craigski what does 4k UHD TV consume? 50 Mbps, so what 5.6% of an assumed ~900 Mbps downstream TCP+IPvwhat (v4/v6 unspecified) payload connection. So pretty much nothing. I would assume that an o/s update release could be a worse nightmare but only if the downloads were somehow all happening at exactly the same time, which is unlikely. So live tv being synchronised might be a worst case scenario but 5.6% is still not much.

I once did an admittedly very poor test; while the men’s Wimbledon final was in progress, I did various different speed tests while using my AA DSL connection. Of course absolutely zero performance droop was observed compared to normal, and zero packet loss or signs of congestion. My internet connection at 9-11 Mbps is so slow that it isn’t challenging AA, but I was looking at the effects of other AA users, all of whom would have had much faster connections. AA used to publish core network packet loss and congestion figures. I don’t know if they still do, but I can’t remember where it might live on their website which has since been thoroughly redesigned.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 01:31:15 PM by Weaver »
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craigski

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #76 on: November 21, 2022, 01:33:25 PM »

I agree the typical bandwidth is around 25-40Mbs for UHD live stream, and is small fry on a single 900 link.

My question was really how do the speedtests on a 900 connection perform during a live world cup match, when there is higher usage/congestion on the ISP peering links to streaming sites etc.
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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #77 on: November 21, 2022, 02:06:38 PM »

I agree the typical bandwidth is around 25-40Mbs for UHD live stream, and is small fry on a single 900 link.

My question was really how do the speedtests on a 900 connection perform during a live world cup match, when there is higher usage/congestion on the ISP peering links to streaming sites etc.
Looks OK on AAISP to Zen's test server.  These are slightly down on line rate as I have an OpenWRT box I'm running as a router and I'm playing with QOS on it.



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XGS_Is_On

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2022, 04:27:42 PM »

Removing earlier comment as it's nonsense. I forgot how many people actually watch it and that many of those people would be at work for today's game so were streaming it on the sly.

I stand corrected. It looks like it caused some quite nasty congestion for some.

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4725624-anyone-else-noted-increased-latency-today-211122.html
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 04:35:10 PM by XGS_Is_On »
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YouFibre You8000 customer: symmetrical 8 Gbps.

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craigski

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2022, 04:38:40 PM »

The World Cup isn't going to make a dent. It's readily available on broadcast TV. A bunch of online exclusive Premier League games simultaneously are far scarier.

I'm not so sure, Id like to see some stats. BBC iPlayer is streaming UHD. Gary Lineker apologised half time about iPlayer streaming issues. Many people will be streaming vs watching via broadcast satellite/aerial.
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craigski

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #80 on: November 21, 2022, 04:44:33 PM »

Our replies crossed, I agree with your correction  :)
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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #81 on: November 21, 2022, 05:22:53 PM »

I saw that single thread performance on AAISP to various places was notably worse during, I expect that was due to the footie. 
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2022, 09:21:09 PM »

Its insane that we've moved to a world where they are streaming live events over unicast.  Why did they never manage to get multicast working consistently enough for this?  It would have saved orders of magnitude amounts of bandwidth!
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craigski

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #83 on: November 22, 2022, 08:33:39 AM »

Its insane that we've moved to a world where they are streaming live events over unicast.
I think they have to be compatible with the lowest common denominator.

*IF* the whole network end to end was managed by a single entity, eg BT TV with BT managed routers in households wired to the IPTV box, then yes, multicast could work

However, BBC iPlayer over many different networks, including wireless networks, WiFi, 4G, etc wouldn't work.

Common sense tells me there is probably some multicast going on to caching servers within the ISPs/CDNs network, then unicast from there?
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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2022, 09:06:34 AM »

Common sense tells me there is probably some multicast going on to caching servers within the ISPs/CDNs network, then unicast from there?
I think I'd be more surprised if they did; as they're already incurring massive costs outward to the clients, so why incur the penalties that multicasting brings (error prone transmission etc) to save a tiny fraction of bandwidth?

BT's IPTV stuff over FTTC did work using multicasting, I remember it was a right pain to try and make work on OpenWRT a few years ago.
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craigski

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2022, 09:41:13 AM »

I think I'd be more surprised if they did; as they're already incurring massive costs outward to the clients, so why incur the penalties that multicasting brings (error prone transmission etc) to save a tiny fraction of bandwidth?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dynamic-adaptive-streaming-ip-multicast-dasm

Quote
By combining multicast distribution to edge caches with unicast distribution downstream we are also able to support the large installed base of standards-based unicast media players. And using this hybrid model we can even support product features such as "live restart" in a scalable manner.

Everyday is a school day.

Back on topic, which ISPs 900 services would cope better for these major sporting events? Maybe Sky & BT would be as they have they vested interest in Sport content? Or maybe they don't due to the demographic of customers, ie higher percentage of customers streaming?
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XGS_Is_On

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2022, 10:03:07 AM »

Its insane that we've moved to a world where they are streaming live events over unicast.  Why did they never manage to get multicast working consistently enough for this?  It would have saved orders of magnitude amounts of bandwidth!

Is your pfsense running IGMP? My kit isn't.

The traffic levels weren't high. Seems more about the pattern of them. Usually most of this stuff doesn't leave ISP networks. It was pretty transit and peering heavy yesterday, presumably due to people streaming from work / school on ISPs that don't have on-net caches and PIs to CDNs.
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YouFibre You8000 customer: symmetrical 8 Gbps.

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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2022, 08:32:32 AM »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dynamic-adaptive-streaming-ip-multicast-dasm

Everyday is a school day.

Back on topic, which ISPs 900 services would cope better for these major sporting events? Maybe Sky & BT would be as they have they vested interest in Sport content? Or maybe they don't due to the demographic of customers, ie higher percentage of customers streaming?
Interesting, I wonder how widespread the use is.  Doesn't sound like a "everyone's doing it" - from the docs appears it is / was a research prototype that's only just recently been standardised?
Quote
We're keen to work with internet service providers to test out how well these ideas work on their networks.
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craigski

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2022, 09:22:16 AM »

Not sure if it standardised, I would put money on that its in use though by the broadcasters of live events, BBC, Sky, Amazon etc.

I nice video here of how the BBC scales, lots of info in this video if you are interested in how video is distributed via Internet:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzk-hFHfZ2I

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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2022, 09:47:22 AM »

Not sure if it standardised, I would put money on that its in use though by the broadcasters of live events, BBC, Sky, Amazon etc.

I nice video here of how the BBC scales, lots of info in this video if you are interested in how video is distributed via Internet:

Interesting video.  Did you watch it all?

https://youtu.be/nzk-hFHfZ2I?t=1555
No multicast used in BIDI at all at the moment supposedly (or at least, as of 2 years ago)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 09:49:42 AM by bogof »
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