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Author Topic: Noise on the line  (Read 2017 times)

Edinburgh_lad

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Noise on the line
« on: March 12, 2022, 08:16:24 PM »

I'd welcome your thoughts on the matter.

We've been trying to establish what is causing noise on our FTTC connection, but it's like looking for a needle in a haystack:

- when this noise is on, ES are increasing like crazy and for every 2 ES, there's one SES
- connection speed can be slowed down to 1Mbps (from 50Mbps)
- flurries of ES and SES occur at certain times
- Min. effective data rate in my Fritzbox goes from 53744kbit/s to 128kbit/s (!)
- Signal to noise ratio goes from 10/9db to 2/3db or even 0db (1)
- soon after there's a drop in sync
- I've tried the AM radio and nothing

- I'm at the breaking point, as we've been battling this for the past 1 year with FTTC, but ADSL2+ wasn't affected as much, so it must be something affecting VDSL2 frequencies. Openreach aren't helpful - we've had 14 engineers out, and they said they don't know what's causing interference, but they weren't looking for it either.

Is there something you'd recommend I should try to locate the noise? We live in an upper villa in a row of 8 flats connected to the same pole, plus others further away. I've come across a DIY oscilloscope using raspberry pi, but since I have a degree in linguistics, I don't know what to look for, even if I build one.

Any advice gratefully received. All sources of noise in our property eliminated (even motor in the boiler was replaced; Devolo is no longer used; all equipment has been tested - noise doesn't come from our flat).

Thank you.

(I'm attaching screenshots of stats, which are after we've been connected for 5 hours.)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2022, 08:55:35 PM by Edinburgh_lad »
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burakkucat

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2022, 09:49:01 PM »

An oscilloscope will not be of any use. A spectrum analyser and a variable-selective wide-band receiver might show something . . .

Unfortunately the information you have shown from your FRITZ!Box does not tell me anything.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2022, 10:03:03 PM »

Have you been able to see any consistency in the time of day its been happening?
You say its flats, does it have an elevator?  Do the phone lines go anywhere near its control gear perhaps?
Have you checked with the neighbours to see if they have issues?
Does the phone line go internally through the communal section of the flats or along the outside wall?
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2022, 10:42:44 PM »

Have you been able to see any consistency in the time of day its been happening?
You say its flats, does it have an elevator?  Do the phone lines go anywhere near its control gear perhaps?
Have you checked with the neighbours to see if they have issues?
Does the phone line go internally through the communal section of the flats or along the outside wall?

Thank you both for your responses.

It's difficult to say about consistency. We used to get a disconnection at 12:57am almost every day, and now, since using Fritzbox instead of Draytek, I get a dip in SNR around that time. For the past 4 weeks, we've not had disconnections and so I thought the replacement of the motor in our boiler and our neighbours' had solved the issue. However, yesterday, we got a flurry of errors and today, too, which makes me think that the issue isn't resolved.

Last year was particularly bad and we'd get disconnections usually at 57 min before the hour at various times (but regularly at 12:57am) - so there was no specific pattern. At the time, I thought it was our Draytek. However, since doing more testing, I've discovered that Devolo homeplugs (1200) do contribute to errors on the line (ES only), despite having the 17a profile interoperability option, and so I've removed them.

From other symptoms, our phone will occasionally ping in the middle of the night. It's a single ping. Sometimes this ping would result in the disconnection, so that's how we also knew that the line would drop.

Openreach twice mentioned a high resistant fault (they thought it was something to do with jelly crimping), which showed on their readers, but because the fault is difficult to access (presumably underground), they can't do much about it. Plus, the area is due to get FTTP, so I presume they won't bother replacing old cables. So, the cable goes mainly underground, then onto the pole. We're about 500m away from the Exchange (Dalkeith). The thing is that we can have days/weeks of nothing and so I doubt it's really the high resistant fault that's causing our issues. Otherwise, how would you get a flurry of errors?

During the 12:57am disconnection, I listened to the tone of our phone, and what I can hear is something similar to what used to be old modem tone when connecting to the Internet. It's very short, though, lasting around a second or two, going higher in pitch at the end. I mentioned that to Openreach at the time, but they didn't comment. I should even have a recording of it somewhere.

Plusnet have capped our line at 55/10 and changed our profile to 'stable' (they called it 'super stable').

The building is an Edwardian two storey terraced building with no elevators (6 flats), with the remaining 4 being terraced townhouses, one of which is connected to our pole.

I've checked with the neighbours but since all are retired and non-technically minded, they don't care too much if they can't immediately access Alexa or Marks and Spencer's website.

In our flat, the tel. line goes along the skirting board (half the length of the sitting room), then through the wall and immediately to the pole across the street, which is a quiet residential street. 6 flats and 1 terraced townhouse are connected to the pole. Then, the line goes in the direction of two other streets with more terraced townhouses being connected to their respective poles.

Is there a way to hire a spectrum analyser? They look quite pricey.

Thank you.

 


   



« Last Edit: March 12, 2022, 10:59:47 PM by Edinburgh_lad »
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Weaver

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2022, 12:01:11 AM »

You can hire a spectrum analyser from the right instrument rental companies - would need to be an RF model, with the right high frequency capability not just an audio range one.

[cracked record] If you are getting nowhere, Andrews and Arnold (aa.net.uk) will fix your problem within one month or you money back. See https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/we-will-fix-your-line/
[/cracked_record]
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2022, 12:30:10 AM »

Thanks Weaver.

We've considered switching over to A&A, but they're too expensive for us and don't offer unlimited broadband with their value offer.

Also, although their promise is that you can money back, this isn't the solution if they can't fix our broadband.

Although we can leave Plusnet at any time because they're unable to help us, we'll probably go with Zen.
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Weaver

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2022, 01:10:52 AM »

I have used Zen and I liked them a lot. Unfortunately, I’ve read reports on the forum about Zen not being as good as they used to be. Burakkucat uses TalkTalk retail and I think iirc some of our other members use TalkTalk Business. Andrews and Arnold use TalkTalk themselves a lot so their wholesale division must be good! I’ve heard good things about IDNet too. Our leader Kitz herself uses Plusnet so they can’t be all that bad!

Just in order to help us, how much did AA quote you per month?

A thought: If AA is too expensive for you, talk to Mike Cross in their sales department and tell him so; it’s free to ask.

FYI I don’t use an AA unlimited usage deal. They are available but at high prices. My current download quota right now is: 5.699 TB, that’s for my three lines combined so probably want to divide that by three. It’s such a huge amount that I could never use it all in a month.


> The thing is that we can have days/weeks of nothing and so I doubt it's really the high resistant fault that's causing our issues.

I don’t have an answer for you on that but my experience is similar to yours and I think OR’s suggested analysis is plausible.

What do you think, Burakkucat?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2022, 01:26:10 AM by Weaver »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2022, 01:19:56 AM »

Zen in principle are still good, I think like pretty much all businesses they've gotten to a size where they're struggling to have consistency in their support staff, or (I hope not) have become more target driven.

A&A still being small enough to not have that problem, plus you're effectively paying for their specialist support in their prices. (not inherently a bad thing of course)
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Weaver

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2022, 01:28:03 AM »

Zen is pretty huge now, no? They’ve done very well for themselves.
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g3uiss

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2022, 01:25:42 PM »

Unfortunately my experience with Zen of late has been poor. They handle well standard faults, but anything out of the ordinary they seem clueless. Trying to get past tier 1 operators is very difficult. They were a few years ago brilliant but not now. My issues have been reported on other threads.

I do seem to remember that OR have a special team with very sophisticated kit, but I don’t know how you get that.

When I was on FTTC one of my lines suffered a noise bursts every morning at 0929, never found out why, often resulting in a resync.  I often had to resync manually as the line synced with the noise still present resulting in very low speeds. If I remember @kitz suffered from something similar and may still do and also I believe never traced it.
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burakkucat

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2022, 02:49:13 PM »

> The thing is that we can have days/weeks of nothing and so I doubt it's really the high resistant fault that's causing our issues.

I don’t have an answer for you on that but my experience is similar to yours and I think OR’s suggested analysis is plausible.

What do you think, Burakkucat?

Seeing the visual evidence of one such occurrence, above, it certainly looks like the effect of a HR or semi-conductive joint but, logically, it cannot be so. The intermittency of the effect rules out that particular cause.

I do seem to remember that OR have a special team with very sophisticated kit, . . .

Of ability above that of the special faults investigation engineers. I'm sure Black Sheep will be able to fill in the blanks.

Quote
When I was on FTTC one of my lines suffered a noise bursts every morning at 0929, never found out why, often resulting in a resync.  I often had to resync manually as the line synced with the noise still present resulting in very low speeds. If I remember @kitz suffered from something similar and may still do and also I believe never traced it.

Yes, as far as I am aware, Kitz still suffers from a short burst of shine every morning.
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burakkucat

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2022, 03:19:55 PM »

. . . the cable goes mainly underground, then onto the pole. We're about 500m away from the Exchange (Dalkeith).

I am assuming that distance is the approximate cable length (from you to the serving telephony exchange), known from your ADSL2+ service days? For, as I think you might know, with a VDSL2 service only the length of the cable from you to the PCP plus the length of the tie cable to the "fibre cabinet", housing the DSLAM, is relevant.

However now knowing the telephony serving exchange (Dalkeith), I looked up its postcode and put that postcode into Google Maps. Using the "satellite" image in 3D mode it was easy to spot the exchange building. (They are so distinctive.) Checking the Street View from the start of the access road in Weir Crescent and also from Melville Road confirmed it. I then took a 500m radius circle from the exchange building and looked to see if there was anything environmental that could account for the interference. Railway lines; tram lines; water pumping stations; engineering works; small factories . . . nothing stood out, to me.
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g3uiss

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2022, 04:23:54 PM »

Seeing the visual evidence of one such occurrence, above, it certainly looks like the effect of a HR or semi-conductive joint but, logically, it cannot be so. The intermittency of the effect rules out that particular cause.

Of ability above that of the special faults investigation engineers. I'm sure Black Sheep will be able to fill in the blanks.

Yes, as far as I am aware, Kitz still suffers from a short burst of shine every morning.

Yes it was @blacksheep that referred to this, yes way above the SFI level of engineers. I think with a van load of detection equipment. 
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j0hn

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2022, 05:06:36 PM »

However now knowing the telephony serving exchange (Dalkeith), I looked up its postcode and put that postcode into Google Maps. Using the "satellite" image in 3D mode it was easy to spot the exchange building. (They are so distinctive.) Checking the Street View from the start of the access road in Weir Crescent and also from Melville Road confirmed it. I then took a 500m radius circle from the exchange building and looked to see if there was anything environmental that could account for the interference. Railway lines; tram lines; water pumping stations; engineering works; small factories . . . nothing stood out, to me.

There's a railway line within spitting distance of the exchange. It runs right along side the car park of the exchange.
It was a cycle path for many years but was reopened as the borders railway sometime in the noughties.

I'm Dalkeith born and bred and still live in the area.
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burakkucat

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Re: Noise on the line
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2022, 05:17:41 PM »

There's a railway line within spitting distance of the exchange. It runs right along side the car park of the exchange.
It was a cycle path for many years but was reopened as the borders railway sometime in the noughties.

I saw that in the "satellite" image and thought "old redundant railway line, now converted to a pathway". So the image is well out of date. However we don't know the distance between that resurrected railway line and Edinburgh_lad's home.

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I'm Dalkeith born and bred and still live in the area.

Ah, now I knew you had knowledge of the area, from some of your previous postings, but I didn't know why. I do now.  :D
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