Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down  (Read 1125 times)

Weaver

  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *****
  • Posts: 8099
  • Retd sw dev; A&A; 4 × 7km ADSL2; IPv6; Firebrick
Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« on: January 15, 2020, 09:33:04 AM »

Two lines down so I thought at the time, wrongly, after close strike less than 1km away just above the north shore of Loch Eiseort, to the east of Heasta between here and Druim Fheàrna. Did not unplug lines in time so some kit wasbroken. Was running on 3G firebrick failover instead in the night.

AA support was emailed, thinking there were two lines down.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 03:07:14 PM by Weaver »
Logged

Alex Atkin UK

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 586
    • My Broadband History
Re: Lightning storm; lines 2, 3 down
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2020, 09:54:18 AM »

I wonder how many times they have to fix your lines before FTTP suddenly seems affordable for them?  ::)
Logged
Router: i5-7200U appliance running pfSense.
ISP: Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 (ECI B-FOCuS V-2FUb/r Rev B) + Plusnet Unlimited Fibre Extra (Huawei HG612).

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 28292
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Lightning storm; lines 2, 3 down
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 PM »

Google maps tries to get one out of two correct . . . as it shows "Loch Eishort" and "Drumfearn".
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

Weaver

  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *****
  • Posts: 8099
  • Retd sw dev; A&A; 4 × 7km ADSL2; IPv6; Firebrick
Re: Lightning storm; damage: modems 2, 3 down
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2020, 06:55:37 PM »

Google maps has located the anglicised forms. Eishort is as something+"fjord" where the initial f is deleted according to the rules of Gaelic grammar. Not sure what the first element is, perhaps "ice"+"fjord" ?

« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 04:01:02 PM by Weaver »
Logged

Weaver

  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *****
  • Posts: 8099
  • Retd sw dev; A&A; 4 × 7km ADSL2; IPv6; Firebrick
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2, 3 down
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2020, 03:03:29 PM »

Contacted AA who couldn’t find any problem with the lines - that’s because it turned out that the problem was at our end. Two modems : 2, 3 - were slightly cooked - replaced the modems and an Ethernet cable and all was well.

The ethernet cable between modem #3 and the 8-port VLAN MUX/DEMUX switch was on inspection sooty, blackened. Luckily however, the 8-port MUX switch itself seems fine, does not seem to need replacing. Although somehow this time the mux escaped, this has once again set me I’m thinking I ought to have a spare. Alternatively, if a MUX got blown up, AA could send me another one and I could live on three modems and with a VLAN-free XML config in the Firebrick until it came. The ports in question on the mux did not seem cooked, just the ethernet cable so it seems that the 0.5m cat7 patch cable seems to have had some resistance perhaps.

Two ‘new’-ish VMG 1312-B10A modems were programmed with my preferred ‘Johnson’ firmware load, and the correct XML config file for each modem in the appropriate slot (slot #2 or #3) was generated and pushed into the modem concerned. A short CAT-8 patch cable was put in in place.

Modem per-slot # config :: I have an iOS Shortcuts program that generates the correct XML config file for slot #n and pushes it into the iOS Textastic text editor, an XML cfg file with an appropriate filename that includes the date and slot yyyy-mm-dd-m<slot>.cfg.xml all ready for me to just hit Save and to upload the cfg XML file into the modem once it has been configured with the right firmware.



Blackened ethernet cable to modem 3; both ends were similar
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 04:01:41 PM by Weaver »
Logged

Alex Atkin UK

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 586
    • My Broadband History
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2020, 03:35:59 PM »

I had wondered if ethernet surge protectors are actually any good?  Sounds like its something that could be worth looking into.

Very curious that it didn't damage anything further up, although some hardware I believe have built-in surge protection so maybe that's why?
Logged
Router: i5-7200U appliance running pfSense.
ISP: Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 (ECI B-FOCuS V-2FUb/r Rev B) + Plusnet Unlimited Fibre Extra (Huawei HG612).

Weaver

  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *****
  • Posts: 8099
  • Retd sw dev; A&A; 4 × 7km ADSL2; IPv6; Firebrick
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2020, 04:00:15 PM »

I have not tried ethernet surge protectors before. I would need four of them.

I had thought about getting four pairs of fibre-media-convertors. Bit of a nightmare tho.

I have decided to order a spare VLAN MUX switch; at least that stands in front of the Firebrick. I blew a port of a Firebrick FB2700 and AA gave me a replacement free of charge, incredible ! I just contacted them to ask about costs of repair for an insurance claim on the damage and got a new unit and a warranty extension too!! If my current Firebrick FB2900 blows up now, I have my spare Firebrick FB2500 which went back into service when the first FB2700 was damaged.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 28292
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2020, 04:44:47 PM »

I was thinking along the lines of four xDSL to optical media converters, a "four to one" optical mux/demux and then to the Firebrick FB2900 via the appropriate SFP transceiver.  :-\

Any high voltage zap on the metallic pathway would have the potential to "take out" a media converter but the equipment further downstream would then be protected by the optical fibre.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

Weaver

  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *****
  • Posts: 8099
  • Retd sw dev; A&A; 4 × 7km ADSL2; IPv6; Firebrick
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2020, 05:35:14 PM »

I would like to see a picture of that. Your proposal avoids the need to convert with four pairs ?
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 28292
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2020, 05:59:59 PM »

I suspect that the xDSL to optical media converters may be difficult to source. Four would be required, each one to take the place of a ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A.

The "four (or more) to one" optical mux/demux should not be too difficult to source, likewise the SFP transceiver for the Firebrick FB2900.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

Weaver

  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *****
  • Posts: 8099
  • Retd sw dev; A&A; 4 × 7km ADSL2; IPv6; Firebrick
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2020, 07:09:32 PM »

I’m sorry to be so dim. I thought I had found a mention of a device that would just convert gigabit Ethernet copper into fibre optics and then this paired with another similar device could do the reverse conversion. But that device would not replace a B10A, just be added on to it ?

An optical mux/demux - I am learning something.

I would prefer not to have a solution that used the SFP port, because if I did, then the config would not work on the fb2500 which I use in an emergency.

I have a program that converts fb2900/2700 XML inti FB2500 by preprocessing it and spotting special significant comments and replacing some sections with marked alternatives. This is in order to handle the lack of a USB ‘dongle’ 3G NIC interface. These markers are like #if / #else in C. The default unpreprocessed xml is legal ready to rock-and-roll fb2700/2900 code which does not need any processing to make it legal as all markers are hiding inside special decorated comments. The code that is in for-fb2500 alt-blocks is all inside commented-out wrapper markers so it’s invisible normally and is exposed when converted to fb2500 mode.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 28292
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2020, 08:59:44 PM »

I’m sorry to be so dim. I thought I had found a mention of a device that would just convert gigabit Ethernet copper into fibre optics and then this paired with another similar device could do the reverse conversion. But that device would not replace a B10A, just be added on to it ?

A pair of Planet GT-802S (single mode fibre) or a GT-802 (multi-mode fibre) media converters (per line) would do exactly what you have described. But as you have four lines, that setup would require another eight PSUs to be mains powered!  :swoon:

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that my suggestion of an xDSL to optical media converter does not actually exist. (xDSL to Ethernet media converters and Ethernet to optical media converters do exist.)

Ideally you need four passive opto-isolators in between the four NTE5s and the four ZyXEL VMG1312-B10As. Again, I am uncertain if such devices actually exist.

Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4617
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2020, 09:29:30 PM »

I can’t help wondering if a carefully designed surge protection strategy might be more cost-efficient, rather than a hybrid electronic/fibre solution, the electronics of which would still be vulnerable, and still break the broadband connection?

Obviously, domestic surge protection won’t save you from a direct lightning strike.   But my understanding is, most of that sort of damage is likely to be caused by stray currents from relatively distant strikes.  And my understanding is, these sorts of surges are manageable, with good design.

I’m not sure a lot of the readily available surge protectors really do any good, ‘snake oil’ often springs to mind.   But functioning technology does exist, witnessed by the fact the electronics in BT exchanges is not nearly so susceptible to damage from indirect strikes...

As to who might produce or advise on such ‘good design’, not me.   Most of the things I once knew about good electronics design have long been filed in my grey matter under the category ‘forgotten’. :D
Logged

Weaver

  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *****
  • Posts: 8099
  • Retd sw dev; A&A; 4 × 7km ADSL2; IPv6; Firebrick
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2020, 12:27:35 AM »

Good advice from 7lm. The damage I have had a-plenty over the past twenty years has I believe been from either stray induced currents or else GPR/EPR - something that people forget about all the time. With such a long line I would suspect that GPR/EPR is a serious danger and I would think that it brings on slow cooking rather than dramatic damages.

As for direct lightning strike, I have several enormous trees right near the house; I would think they act as lightning conductors and I would expect them to be much more tasty for a direct close strike.

I would need to find some serious engineer with a reputation backed by evidence who could arrange what - gas discharge tubes? - for the dsl lines and for the mains. It would probably cost a fortune.

My current strategy - no pun intended
  • warning system hardware,
  • warning app for iOS and real-time lightning map
  • spares
  • proper insurance.
  • mains surge protectors
I have two warning systems and maps (i) a Skyscanner hardware lightning warning system with a range of about 120mi or so; it’s ridiculously sensitive which is very good as it gives you hours of warning to check maps if strikes. The only bad thing about it is that I can’t seem to get the beep sound alert to work. It flashes lots of bright lights.
(ii) The second warning system is an iOS app "Lightning Tracker Pro" which warns me of strikes in a particular chosen radius and displays a real-time updating map. The app is running on two iPads now it give me a better chance of hearing / seeing the alert notifications. (iii)  I also have a web-based strike map at lightningmaps.org and blitzortung.org. I know these things work because I can check the iOS Apps against the web maps and against the hardware SkyScanner unit and I can hear the thunder at the correct time according to the sound arrival radial picture in the optional blitzortung thunder map.

Mains protection: lots of surge protectors based on the fattest MOVs I can find expensive Belkin audio-video units and also a pair of UPSs which are supposed to provide surge protection.

With spares there is no downtime, and serious insurance removes the financial shock. I have more than a complete set of replacement spare modems, I have a second small mux switch on order should be here On Saturday and I have a spare Firebrick.
I have checked that our insurance covers lightning damage and once began to make a claim but never went through with it as that was the time that AA gave me a free replacement Firebrick FB2700. So the insurance is thus far untested.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 12:56:19 AM by Weaver »
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 28292
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Lightning storm; damage : modems 2 and 3 down
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2020, 12:53:11 AM »

I would need to find some serious engineer with a reputation backed by evidence who could arrange what - gas discharge tubes? - for the dsl lines and for the mains. It would probably cost a fortune.

The first requirement, before any other devices are installed, would be a low-impedance (i.e. sub one ohm) ground (earth) connection. I suspect that some serious rock drilling would be required for the installation.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4