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Author Topic: Strange Noise Margin Activity  (Read 15160 times)

mr_s81

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Strange Noise Margin Activity
« on: January 27, 2016, 03:43:32 PM »

Hi All! I guess I will do the welcome and query all in my first post! Hope that isn't rude! :P

I am currently a Plusnet customer and have been so for over 5 years now. Unfortunately, after moving to new premises over two years ago, it transpires that we are at the end of a long line (approx 7.3km line length) with an attentuation of 63.5dB downstream and 31.5dB up. Speeds here have always been slow (a max of 0.7mbps throughput) and varying anything between 0.5 - 0.7 normally.

Having become frustrated with this and trying to do something about it, I looked at replacing the Thompson 582n router which I had been using and eventually, based on reviews, settled on a Billion 7800 DXL. At this time I also replaced the wireless house phone with a wired model and replaced the router cable with a shielded one from Amazon. A BT engineer also upgraded the faceplate to a version 1 to a v3. During my research I found out about routerstats and started monitoring the noise margin in the line. Oddly enough, given the length of the line, it was reasonably stable and I was able to sync at a SNR of 5.5 and hold this at a sync rate of around 1700 kbps (ADSL 2+). Throughput was around 1.5 - 1.6mbps on a fastpath line. Suddenly the 'smart' TV was almost usable, I was living the dream! This was until last Thursday (21st January).  :no:

I logged on to the internet as per normal after having come home from work and noticed a very strange pattern on the routerstats graph. Normally, there was some variation in noise margin but this was something different. Increases in the noise margin (of around 2-3 dB) were appearing were occurring with almost perfect regularity (every 3 minutes or so). I have no idea what caused this, but I do know that the line began erroring at a considerable rate, to such an extent that DLM decided to kick in and turn on interleaving. Plusnet also changed the line to a 12dB interleaved which has now put my under the fault threshold rate (1140 kbps). I tested via the test socket and the noise margin pattern remained the same. I also turned off everything in the house except the router and nothing changed.

A BT engineer arrived yesterday and I was able to show him the routerstats graph whilst connected to the route while he was here. He said he'd never seen anything like it before! Apparently, the only graphs he was used to was one for connection speeds. He checked the line and confirmed that speeds were low, (his tester was syncing at 768 kpbs even lower than the Billion), but he carried out a number of tests using this and declared everything to look ok. He said the speeds would be poor given the line length (tell me something I don't know) but could not explain why I had lost 50% of my sync rate overnight. He did say though I had been put on a fastpath 6dB line which he felt was unsuitable and did not seem to understand that I told him I had been on this setting with surprisingly few errors for 3 weeks previous!

I'm still pressuring Plusnet to do something about this, but I was wondering if this is something any of you knowledgeable peeps have come across? I've attached a screen grab of the routerstats graph taken a few moments ago to illustrate what I've been trying to explain.

Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Ian
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 05:01:24 PM by mr_s81 »
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tbailey2

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 04:02:19 PM »

Hi

Unless I'm misreading it, I think you'll find that the peaks are actually a lack of noise every 3 minutes and the rest of the time you have several db of standing continuous  noise...  The higher the SNRM (Signal to Noise Ratio Margin) the less noise there is.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 04:05:12 PM by tbailey2 »
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Tony
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Weaver

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 04:03:03 PM »

Hi mr_81 and a very warm welcome! ;D
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Weaver

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 04:34:52 PM »

Your line is very similar to mine, same length but I have slightly higher attn at 65 dB, possibly because I am making use of higher frequencies more than you do.

My modems (three) are DLink DSL-320B-Z1 devices programmed by Andrews and Arnold (my ISP) into modem-only mode (not routers) and on sale at the AAISP shop (http://aa.net.uk/broadband-accessories.html) to non-customers as well as customers. The DLink is a faster performer than your Billion and should be giving you around 2400 downstream sync since your line is similar to mine.

I think three things should be considered, talk to Andrews & Arnold about getting your line fixed http://aa.net.uk. Secondly try a DLink with Billion router (does it have an Ethernet WAN port) this will hopefully give you a lot more speed than you had before. Thirdly try getting AA to set your line to target SNRM of 3dB which will all being give you a downstream sync of 2900 roughly.

AA will certainly fix your line for you, or die trying. They're famous for their perseverance in this. Assuming that is that they don't simply decide that your old speed was something of a miracle and give you the "it's a very long line thing", but the point is you're below the FTR I think you said and that makes it an error, by definition, no doubt about it. Anyway it doesn't cost anything to talk to them and find out if they are for you or not.

Do take the speeds I've quoted with a pinch of salt, as it may simply be that your line has always been more noisy than mine, mine being exceptional as I'm in the middle of nowhere and it's so electrically quiet, and the Billion has a strong reputation.
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Weaver

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 04:48:43 PM »

Oh and one more thing, Tandy RJ11 cable
    http://www.tandyonline.co.uk/electronics/telecoms-dsl.html

Ramblings about this excellent cable at
    http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15910.msg295971.html#msg295971

Get the shortest one possible, and a long, shielded (SFTP) Ethernet cable Cat 6a (for its electrical screening properties) from the modem to the Billion.
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mr_s81

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2016, 04:58:59 PM »

Hi

Unless I'm misreading it, I think you'll find that the peaks are actually a lack of noise every 3 minutes and the rest of the time you have several db of standing continuous  noise...  The higher the SNRM (Signal to Noise Ratio Margin) the less noise there is.

Hi, thanks for the quick reply. Yes, you would be correct. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise. This continuous noise would not have been there over a week ago. As I say, I am currently syncing at approx 900 kbps at a SNR of 9dB. Before last Thursday, a noise margin of 12dB would have given me a similar sync speed. It's as if continuous noise has been introduced to the line at that point. This noise is there all day and night with a break every 3 minutes of so consistently.
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burakkucat

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2016, 05:18:15 PM »

Welcome to the Kitz forum, mr_s81:)

Have you performed a quiet line test to check for the presence of any audible abnormalities on the circuit? With a traditional wired telephone, call 17070 and take the quiet line test option from the menu of available facilities.
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mr_s81

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2016, 05:33:16 PM »

Hi mr_81 and a very warm welcome! ;D

Thanks Weaver, nice to be on board!  ;)
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 05:37:22 PM »

In addition to the other suggestions, you could also try listening in on an AM radio, if you have one, as interference that affects DSL will commonly also affect AM radio...

Tune up and down the band, listening for any loud buzzing or other noises.   If you find such noise, and it also pauses every 3 minutes, it might confirm you were onto something,   By strolling around with the radio, the source may then become apparent.
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tbailey2

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2016, 05:38:22 PM »

What you really need to do is some self-help see if this noise is generated somewhere locally, starting in your own house. Having been through this several times in the past few years, it's satisfying when you find out what it is!

The last one disconnected me (on ADSL) and lost 6db of margin each time  happened. Walking around with a MW radio eventually narrowed it down to a few houses and a specific one after they went away on 2 weeks hol and it stopped for that period!

Eventually got into the house  (after being accused of spying as I could tell them exactly when it started and stopped) and found an old monitor was the cause. The switch mode PSU had faulted - 'oh we wondered why the monitor kept turning off after about an hour - we turned if off for a while and then it was okay' (for another hour  :o

Spend a while reading this should help.

NB: you need a 2nd mortgage for AAISP to help and it may not be necessary anyway except maybe as a last resort.


This editor or is ***** keeps inserting spurious size changes when you move lines around  >:D
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 05:41:12 PM by tbailey2 »
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Tony
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Plusnet 80/20 - DSLstats - HG612/TG582n - ECI

mr_s81

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2016, 05:47:36 PM »

Your line is very similar to mine, same length but I have slightly higher attn at 65 dB, possibly because I am making use of higher frequencies more than you do.

What speeds are you achieving on your line Weaver?

My modems (three) are DLink DSL-320B-Z1 devices programmed by Andrews and Arnold (my ISP) into modem-only mode (not routers) and on sale at the AAISP shop (http://aa.net.uk/broadband-accessories.html) to non-customers as well as customers. The DLink is a faster performer than your Billion and should be giving you around 2400 downstream sync since your line is similar to mine.

Thanks for the advise on the Dlink. My Billion was about £85 from memory so I wish I had realised that in the first place!  >:( Is there much difference between the Dlink and Billion, i.e. would it be worth purchasing a new model?

I think three things should be considered, talk to Andrews & Arnold about getting your line fixed http://aa.net.uk.

Although I am currently with Plusnet, I had looked at A&A as an alternative as the Plusnet deal ends in April. They do seem quite a bit more expensive, but as the saying goes, 'what you pay for is what you get'?

 Thirdly try getting AA to set your line to target SNRM of 3dB which will all being give you a downstream sync of 2900 roughly.

I contacted Plusnet there on the live chat to see if they would at least reset the line back to 6dB, but they checked my line and said it's currently sitting at a 10dB margin when it should be 9dB so refused to do anything until the faults team dealt with it? Not sure of the rationale, but said the faults team would get back in a day or two, so I went along with it for now.
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mr_s81

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2016, 05:49:53 PM »

Oh and one more thing, Tandy RJ11 cable
    http://www.tandyonline.co.uk/electronics/telecoms-dsl.html

Ramblings about this excellent cable at
    http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15910.msg295971.html#msg295971

Get the shortest one possible, and a long, shielded (SFTP) Ethernet cable Cat 6a (for its electrical screening properties) from the modem to the Billion.

Done already Weaver. I have a 0.5m shielded cable between router and faceplate!  :thumbs:
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mr_s81

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2016, 05:52:01 PM »

In addition to the other suggestions, you could also try listening in on an AM radio, if you have one, as interference that affects DSL will commonly also affect AM radio...

Tune up and down the band, listening for any loud buzzing or other noises.   If you find such noise, and it also pauses every 3 minutes, it might confirm you were onto something,   By strolling around with the radio, the source may then become apparent.

I've read of others doing this. Is there a certain (more likely) frequency I should tune in to, or is it a bit of a lottery, tune up and down and see what happens?!
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mr_s81

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2016, 05:55:50 PM »

What you really need to do is some self-help see if this noise is generated somewhere locally, starting in your own house. Having been through this several times in the past few years, it's satisfying when you find out what it is!

The last one disconnected me (on ADSL) and lost 6db of margin each time  happened. Walking around with a MW radio eventually narrowed it down to a few houses and a specific one after they went away on 2 weeks hol and it stopped for that period!

Eventually got into the house  (after being accused of spying as I could tell them exactly when it started and stopped) and found an old monitor was the cause. The switch mode PSU had faulted - 'oh we wondered why the monitor kept turning off after about an hour - we turned if off for a while and then it was okay' (for another hour  :o

Spend a while reading this should help.


Thanks, that's helpful. Good work on finding the interference in your case. I bet you had the neighbours most concerned!! I tried turning off all power bar the router, and still the graph remained the same. Is this enough to rule out anything local, or do I go ahead with the radio investigations in the house regardless?
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tbailey2

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Re: Strange Noise Margin Activity
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 05:58:51 PM »

Was RouterStats still logging as otherwise you won't know...
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Tony
My Books!
Plusnet 80/20 - DSLstats - HG612/TG582n - ECI
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