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Author Topic: RAMBo being shut down?  (Read 29749 times)

tbailey2

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RAMBo being shut down?
« on: November 26, 2014, 08:18:23 AM »

RAMBo being shut down?

The Element Manager only has one parameter for errors which it uploads to the Management Device for DLM.   As far as DLM goes all the Management Device (RAMBo) seems to need from the Element Manager is uptime, Errors, retrains & sync speed.

Got this from The Register - please put it somewhere else if needs be unless it's already there!

==

BT said to have pulled patent-infringing boxes (RAMBo - TB] from DSL network

BT's patent spat with US company ASSIA will start to be noticed by customers, with the carrier reportedly shutting down boxes that provide rate adaptation after it lost a crucial round of legal action.

In December 2013, Britain's High Court ruled that BT had infringed ASSIA patents by developing DSL management platforms referred to as “RAMbo” (Rate Adaptive Management Box). BT lost its appeal on November 14 (for example, there's a Lightwave report here).

Rather than cut a licensing deal with ASSIA, and faced with daily penalties of £250,000 per week if it continued running the system, El Reg has been told that BT began shutting down the boxes on November 21.

ASSIA is now taking its side of the battle to the media, saying that by withdrawing dynamic line management from its UK DSL network, the carrier is harming customers' service levels and speeds.

In an e-mail to The Register, ASSIA claims that disabling the line management “will lead to a degradation of service on a number of BT Infinity lines, and that the longer NGA-DLM is disabled, the higher the percentage of lines that will experience performance degradation.”

While ASSIA focuses on development rather than manufacturing, it's not your usual non-practising entity: its founders include broadband pioneer John Cioffi, and for some time employed University of Melbourne's Dr John Papandriopoulos on the basis of his work on dynamic line management.

BT declined to comment on ASSIA's claims. ®
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 10:29:43 AM by roseway »
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les-70

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2014, 09:12:02 AM »

  That is very interesting.  Many of the LLU adsl operators managed very well (better than BT withits DLM, i would say) with no DLM but without it the ISP does need to be able to easily control line parameters and I would guess that by default BT might tend to put everyone interleaved until they complain.


  Looking at one of the references http://www.lightwaveonline.com/articles/2014/11/assia-wins-another-round-in-dsl-patent-fight-with-bt.html It may just be that BT is forced to change the DLM algorithm to one totally of its own.  :-X
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 10:30:17 AM by roseway »
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Ixel

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2014, 09:58:33 AM »

Here is the graph that shows the total ES since 1st August to today. Bit difficult to read but it might show something. The highest value when interleaved is about 138. I think you can see what put it back on interleaved most recently...
Added BE1's since 1st Jan - interesting!!

   Thanks for those, as you say very interesting. Yours shows clear behavior but it is odd that all the excursions above 1440 go also well above 2880 and don't reveal just what errors may be needed.  BE1's has some odd events.  I bothers me that over those time periods all of the big error values could have been due to thunderstorms - indeed surely some must be- yet all except one of BE!'s were acted upon.   It looks like the errors get very low before a recover from interleaving -- any idea how low?

  However maybe RAMbo is dead or changing now.

Although not requested, I'm now testing this somewhat.

My connection on the ASUS DSL-AC68U is set according to DLM's parameters at the moment, I'm not overriding it. This means 49Mbps with an INP of 3 and a delay of 8ms. At the moment I'm getting plenty of FEC's, but absolutely no CRC errors. If DLM doesn't consider FEC then DLM presumably should increase my speed banding and/or reducing error correction hopefully within the next two to four weeks. Under the same conditions on the HG612 I would get some error seconds and also plenty of FEC.

If anyone is interested to hear the results then I'll keep everyone updated as to when DLM intervenes (if it does).

Also if RAMBo is being shutdown, what does this mean for those on speed banding and interleaving? Permanent or reset?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 10:30:31 AM by roseway »
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Balb0wa

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 10:33:39 AM »

surely its still active, if it was off, switching off my modem and letting it resync would mean no interleaving at all?
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Ixel

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 10:45:52 AM »

surely its still active, if it was off, switching off my modem and letting it resync would mean no interleaving at all?

Not unless the DSLAM was reset to a wide open profile.
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kitz

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2014, 10:53:40 AM »

Wow - that is interesting.   :o

I'd got a hunch that something may be changing and something was a foot, but I suppose BT tech documents arent going to be the place where they will discuss this sort patents and copyright disputes.   

If you notice on the DLM system page I have this info - ~ What is a DLM Management Device (RAMBo)?

Quote
Note: From 2014 BT is moving over to using MSE bRAS. It is probable that the Management Device will be located near to the MSE bRAS rather than in the local exchange. It is also possible that they may drop the name RAMBo - Since 21CN the RAP function is a simpler procedure than when on 20CN and the DLM function has become more complex and the major function that the system now performs.


afaik its the FTTC lines that have mostly been moved to MSE bRAS

Quote
From what I can gather, not all services may have been moved over to MSE's yet.
At the present time (Oct 2014) it would appear that NGA products (ie fibre) are/have been migrated first.

and I also have this

Quote
Note: In 2012 BT tested a new system of central Management Devices and whether they will be/are moving to using something like the Huawei U2000 system for OSS & DLM has not been publicly disclosed.

So if and how that fits in with the infringement Ive no idea.
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c6em

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 11:00:29 AM »

Wild guess here:
Lines will continue forever at the settings they were set at on the DSALM prior to the switch off of the system.
...until either
a) a revised system is implemented
b) ASSIA suddenly realise that BT really are not going to pay and become more "accommodating".
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Balb0wa

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 11:03:19 AM »

may have to find an openreach engineer to bribe to reset my profile, easier said than done with all these kelly communication blokes in bt vans.
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adslmax

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 11:11:16 AM »

Switched off DLM will not reset it. Openreach don't care, unless u asking ISP's to push for DLM reset and Openreach will tell ISP's NO!
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kitz

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2014, 11:28:06 AM »

So whats so different about the FTTC DLM?

BT have had patents and copyright for years for RAMBo and their existing DLM which used Interleaving and SNRm. So why now and why only FTTC.  The major difference between the two systems is that FTTC uses Interleaving, INP and banding.

Ive never really looked at the ASSIA system but one of the parameters that it uses is capping a line as part of the DLM system.  For example Sky which uses ASSIA are frequently capped or banded and cant move up to the next speed stage until deemed stable.

Is it possible that ASSIA have a patent which uses banding rather than SNRm parameters, and is the cause of the dispute? 

The only other thing that I can think of thats new,  is the way that the BToR system DLM relaxes and deems a line stable using the ILQ system and the now more complicated way it reduces steps of the DLM. 
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Chrysalis

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2014, 11:41:21 AM »

Here is the graph that shows the total ES since 1st August to today. Bit difficult to read but it might show something. The highest value when interleaved is about 138. I think you can see what put it back on interleaved most recently...
Added BE1's since 1st Jan - interesting!!

   Thanks for those, as you say very interesting. Yours shows clear behavior but it is odd that all the excursions above 1440 go also well above 2880 and don't reveal just what errors may be needed.  BE1's has some odd events.  I bothers me that over those time periods all of the big error values could have been due to thunderstorms - indeed surely some must be- yet all except one of BE!'s were acted upon.   It looks like the errors get very low before a recover from interleaving -- any idea how low?

  However maybe RAMbo is dead or changing now.

Although not requested, I'm now testing this somewhat.

My connection on the ASUS DSL-AC68U is set according to DLM's parameters at the moment, I'm not overriding it. This means 49Mbps with an INP of 3 and a delay of 8ms. At the moment I'm getting plenty of FEC's, but absolutely no CRC errors. If DLM doesn't consider FEC then DLM presumably should increase my speed banding and/or reducing error correction hopefully within the next two to four weeks. Under the same conditions on the HG612 I would get some error seconds and also plenty of FEC.

If anyone is interested to hear the results then I'll keep everyone updated as to when DLM intervenes (if it does).

Also if RAMBo is being shutdown, what does this mean for those on speed banding and interleaving? Permanent or reset?

Clearly permanent until intervention or new DLM, so its bad for those currently DLM'd.

Although isp's may gain temporary abilities to request line changes until a new DLM is made.
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Chrysalis

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2014, 11:43:42 AM »

surely its still active, if it was off, switching off my modem and letting it resync would mean no interleaving at all?

DLM doesnt actually set the interleaving parameters, the DSLAM does, DLM just tells the DSLAM what to do, meaning BT can and probably will maintain all existing profiles, just they will currently not be automated changes.
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adslmax

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2014, 11:49:13 AM »

Found this on BT Openreach press release:

Code: [Select]
OR
-
22857/
ORC2M
-
31756
GEA
-
FTTC
Vectoring: Ability to identify the vectoring state of a modem/ CPE
(OSS and Network test)
This story is an enabler to support initial trials of the use of
Vectoring for GEA
-
FTTC and provide lear
ning to support any
future implementation. At this time no commercial or technical
deployment decisions have been made.
It enhances the GEA Service Test for GEA
-
FTTC in support of
Vectoring by enabling the vectoring state of CPE (that is
connected to a
vector enabled DSLAM) to be returned within GEA
Service Test results

DLM disabled
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tbailey2

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2014, 11:51:43 AM »

Here's some more info on the ruling from HERE... (which predates the report today where they say they won't in fact pay now)


Broadband access network management software vendor ASSIA, Inc. reports the UK Court of Appeal in London has affirmed a High Court judgment against BT in a patent fight. The Court of Appeal agreed with the High Court that BT infringed on an ASSIA broadband management patent and determined that British Telecom infringes a second patent as well, this one covering dynamic spectrum management techniques.

The two patents, EP (UK) 1,869,790 and EP (UK) 2,259,495, describe methods of dynamic monitoring and automatic optimization of DSL networks. Last December, the High Court ruled that a DSL management platform BT developed infringed upon on patent 1,869,790 (see "BT infringed on ASSIA DSL patent rules UK High Court"). BT appealed the ruling, while tweaking its platform in a way it believes no longer infringes the patent.

Despite losing the appeal, BT told staff at World Intellectual Property Review that it doesn't much care, in light of the adjustment it made to its approach. However, a hearing to review BT's adjustment in relation to the patent was scheduled to take place November 13.

The court finding could be significant, given that the DSL management technique at issue underpins BT's current "Next Generation Architecture" superfast broadband initiative. The carrier serves 3.3 million customers as of September 30 via the infrastructure.

As for what happens next, pending the outcome of the November 13 hearing, it appears ASSIA would be satisfied if BT licensed its technology, which is the foundation of its DSL Expresse product.

"Today's ruling affirms ASSIA's role as an innovator in the field of broadband performance optimization," said ASSIA General Counsel Noah Mesel. "Two dozen major operators around the world license our products because they recognize the significant value ASSIA's software uniquely adds to their businesses. As BT continues to grow the part of their business that infringes ASSIA's patents, it is time for them to join companies such as AT&T, Verizon, Sky, and Bouygues, and license our software; otherwise BT should pay for infringing our patented technology."
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Tony
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Chrysalis

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Re: RAMBo being shut down?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2014, 11:54:25 AM »

That's probably the most likely end result, one thing for sure is they wont run without DLM forever even tho us end users know its better without.
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