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[kitz]

There doesnt seem to be much difference between the Zyxel & the HG612 on broadstairs line when it comes to E/Secs. 

I agree that the Zyxel may have given some more CRCs but from the graphs I wouldnt say its a substantial amount certainly not to the point where the DLM is going to be interested.   SHINE can produce different burst levels and vary too much to drawn anything conclusive for example look how much the 26ths and 27ths varied whilst still using the HG612.  On the 23rd broadstairs line suffered quite a steep peak burst of CRCs but in all fairness who is to say that it couldnt have happened on the HG612.

You may feel Im being defensive about the Zyxel, but I do feel its totally unfair to compare it with the ASUS - theyre not in the same league.  The ASUS has big problems in that its causing most people to be DLM'd.. yet the Zyxel has given quite a lot of people much better line conditions. I'll admit that Zyxel could perhaps be more pro-active with f/w releases, but look at Ronski's line is an example.  He suffers from lots of noise yet the Zyxel gives him a higher bit rate and more recently he even had interleaving completely removed.  OK it didnt last for long because he suffered a really nasty noise burst which made the DLM take action again.. but since being on the Zyxel - and hes been on it for several months now, he certainly seems to have faired better when it comes to the DLM and bitrate.

Ive got a couple of TPlinks here.  My line gets loads more errors using the TPlink and it wouldnt even give me an 80/20 now, it doesnt perform anywhere as good as the BCMs.   TPlink sent me another router just to check it wasnt a one off hardware issue, but both perform the same..  yet I still class it as stable because it performs along the same lines as the ECI modem and better than the HH5 when on a BTr line.   Most people seem to find that the BCM routers do perform better, yet there is still the odd line which does better with the Lantiq chipset.

On the whole so far, I'd still rate the HG612, the Billion and the Zyxel in the top 3.   Id certainly rate the ASUS as the worst... and all the others fall somewhere in between.   

[broadstairs]

So far the HG635 seems not too bad with ES for the first hour about the same as the HG612 was the previous hour, CRCs dont look bad but I did just get a spike of FECs upstream which had not happened on either the HG612 or ZyXEL. Bear in mind though this is not running capped as the command does not work on the HG635, unless there is another command hidden somewhere to cap speeds. DSLStats is working well with the config I downloaded from here.

I am thinking about getting a Billion 8800nl but having just tried the 5ghz wi-fi on phone and tablet I'd quite like a dual wi-fi band VDSL router 

Stuart

[Ixel]

Firmware 2144 on the ASUS DSL-AC68U has been an improvement however, at least for me and some others on another forum. ASUS haven't abandoned the device yet, which is good. It's just a matter of whether they can truly clear a majority of the errors or whether some of it is either related the chipset or something else such as the switching power supply creating noise. I've ordered myself a pack of 10pcs of clip-on ferrite beads which I'll be attaching to switching power supply cables (e.g. for my cordless phone hub, my switch and finally my two routers).

[kitz]

Thanks Ixel.  In all fairness ASUS does seem to have been pro-active and do seem to be rolling out - although irrc the last post I read was from someone who said ASUS hadnt answered for a while, so I guess I need to catch up whats been happening more recently.

The problem with a lot of the combined units is that none of them have really been out that long and at first they were far too expensive for most people to be able to afford to buy their own.  Its only this year that prices seem to have come down.   Ive no idea why the manufacturers were so slow to bringing a unit to the market.  Whether it was because they thought BT had it stitched up with the Openreach modems Ive no idea.   Whatever the reason, this year several of the main manufacturers have released a model, but unfortunately most of them never appear to have ever been beta tested on Openreach FTTC lines before release.

All models (save the Zyxel SBG3300-N and Billions) seem to have had some form of teething problems that were f/w related and indicative that they'd not been tested properly on a BTline before release.   Im not including the HG612 in there, because its modem only... and the fact Ive no doubt it will have undergone the intensive testing with BT before they started using it... so any major problems should have been pre-ironed out.

[les-70]

 There is the  http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/20044-billion-bipac-8800axl/ but I suspect you won't be a lot better off than with one your current options.  I have found that in general the 63168 chipset devices all seem more SHINE- CRC burst prone than the HG612.  I have tried the Xyxel Billion 880NL and HG635.  I also bought in one cheap lot an HG630 and HG658 and they are similar in that respect.  I am 80% confident that my Xyxel was faulty as it was so much worse and the only one prone to actual disconnects.  I say 80% as it may not have been faulty but simply much worse for the type of errors on my particular line. 

 

[kitz]

Its a shame les if it was faulty.   As you know Ive always been quite pro-active in trying to show my own errors etc in an attempt to get to the bottom of it.
I dont doubt you in that it did perform worse on your own line and I would love to know if it was a fault with the VMG8324 model or if it was a one off, or if for some reason it just didnt like your line conditions.   I'm happy to admit that it may produce more CRCs on some lines, but it doesnt seem to affect E/S which are the important ones.   Without doubt it does seem to give a higher line rate which may benefit those who want to cap.   The only other thought is perhaps in some way it doesnt respond to rate capping as good although I cant suss out how or why that should happen.

Im quite open about the fact that the GUI is buggy and Im not chuffed now that theyve limited the telnet sessions, but on the whole as far as line stability goes Im very happy with mine, and most of its features.  They still have work to do on the GUI, but most of it doesnt affect me and Im stable on v4.

Im also well aware that some routers just simply dont like certain types of lines.  The worst router Ive ever had on my line was one of the 2Wire 2700's which work brilliantly on long lines, yet they were rubbish for short lines.   

[les-70]

  I would also love to know if it was really faulty or not -- there is no way of really knowing unless you have more than one them.  On my line in a four hour period the Xyxel ES rate went over a few thousand causing a week or so interleaved.   A lot lot more ES than other modems.  I did wonder if it was a one off event while uncapped.  Subsequent tries uncapped were less extreme but at least 3-5 times the HG612 ES error rate and most disturbing were actual disconnects.  A cap to a sync of 8mb/s below the Hg612 seemed to give me no disconnects and the same ES rate as the 8Mb/s faster Hg612 but still lots more CRC.  I am not sure how harmless those CRC are as they gave lots of SES which it seems may be counted in some way.   My guess was a duff input stage as digital things seem more yes and no.  I sent Zyxel stats showing both the VMG8324 and HG612 -- they agreed it was clearly not right and indeed suggested a replacement rather than firmware.  By then I had lost interest in messing with it and I was given the refund instead.  My one off experience  is definitely not a reason to put others off but I think anyone with SHINE events may wish to just be cautious.

  The Billion 8800NL has been so much better for me.  Still a bit higher ES and CRC than the HG612 but just a bit and with good wireless and Ethernet throughput and so easy to use as to be boring. The loss of all gigabit is the drawback for some but not a worry for me.

[les-70]

  @broadstairs It may be time to stop the HG635 test, you seem to be getting some big error spikes with plenty of ES.  As I noted I found that the HG635 gave noticeably more errors than the HG612 and you can't cap the speed with the current firmware.  I don't think the HG635 is SHINE friendly!  I only run it from time to time doing ppoe in conjunction with the HG612 so i don't miss any 1.06t updates that as supposed to happen soon.  In that mode you don't need telnet access.


    Do you have proper figures re capped Zyxel vs. capped HG612.  As Kitz noted the ES look similar and  CRC may not matter on their own but it would interesting to compare the SES rates.

[broadstairs]

I decided what the hell let it run and the spikes of ES have gone down again. I might let it got for a few days and see what happens. If I get DLM'd the I might complain to TT  I have remote management turned off at the moment so I guess I wont get 1.06 f/w.

Did you know about these hidden pages on the HG635?

Code: [Select]

http://192.168.1.1/html/advance.html#parent_control
http://192.168.1.1/html/advance.html#qos
http://192.168.1.1/html/advance.html#iptv
http://192.168.1.1/html/advance.html#diagnose_overview

Not sure what use they are though!

Stuart

[les-70]

  TT won't remove interleaving but it may go away after using a speed cap.  I would take out !!

   from your tests I would say your best options are:-

    1.  Zyxel capped -- the simplest choice
    2.  HG612 capped with Zyxel or Hg635 in ppoe mode.  Hg635 if you want 5ghz

   With 2. and the HG635 the 01 config file has a fibre modem connection set up for this if you select fibre rather than dsl. You may want to look at that setting but there is no point in using one of my config files while in ppoe mode as you won't need to access the HG635 itself for stats.  The HG635 will update as normal in the ppoe mode. I use the Hg635 that way myself.  So if you wanted you could retry it on "dsl" with a config file after it has updated

   The hidden pages seem to be used by some people but it depends on whether they are useful to you.

[broadstairs]

I have put back the HG612 now capped in conjunction with the HG635 as I quite like 5ghz wi-fi.

I'd love to get a handle on what is causing the errors. There must be something which is doing it but how to find it is the issue.

Stuart

[les-70]

  Once you eliminate SHINE event sources in your house there is not much that it is possible to do about it.   I don't think Openreach will engage such things unless the events are both frequent and severe enough to cause disconnects. I have reduced the impact by using filters and a BT main conditioner but I have only reduced it - it is still an issue.

   if you have left my config file in please always do a shields up now and after any setting change. Adding new wan connections or changing the primary IP both seem to be possible causes of port 23 opening.  I really do not want to be blamed for causing someone to be hacked.

[les-70]

  Depending on the source of your noise you may find it is a lot worse at weekends.  Sometimes I get very bad Saturdays.  Your downstream speed cap may not be quite enough if the TT provisioning DLM setting is only for up to 1440 ES/day on fast path.  It is a shame that TT use 40/2 and with 40/10 your long term choice would be easier.


edit Have you done anything else - given the speed cap things are really looking quite a lot worse.

[kitz]

given the speed cap things are really looking quite a lot worse.

It looks like things started to rise sharply after about 11am yesterday (from what I can see on the graph) which will be after broadstairs put the HG612 on with the HG635.   Yesterday afternoon early/evening there seemed to be a couple of quite bad spats of CRC's - the worst he's had so far. Yet the line is still capped and those Err Secs are continuing to rack up today

Edit - Perhaps not. 

For a time yesterday the line ran at 70911 which I presume is the HG612 running uncapped.
The last time the line had a spat of CRCs like that was last Fri when the the line was running at 72661 on the Zyxel.  I'd said earlier in the thread that the spat last Friday looked like a particularly bad burst which could have happened regardless which router was on the line, so Les may be on to something in the fact they could be worse on certain days.

In general though the Err Secs today are still continuing to rack up despite the cap and the CRCs appear to be worse than when the Zyxel was capped last w/e at the same rate. :/   This could possibly be because the Zyxel gives a slightly better bit rate, and therefore it should have more spare SNR margin to play with as a buffer.

[broadstairs]

OK lets set the record straight. The HG635 was connected on its own until about 10am today when I switched on the HG612 and still use the HG635 via its WAN connection. My ES were not too bad from midnight till 6am this morning with ES/hr less than 20, then from 6am it started to climb 6 to7 was 90 - 7 to 8 was 185 - 8 to 9 was 105 - 9 to 10 was 78 (approx values from DSLStats graph ES/hr). Since putting the HG612 back around 10:15 ish the ES/hr have been around 60 to 90. My CRCs have been very bad today since the HG612 went on starting around 10:58 with several bursts of 700+ and a couple of 1000+ currently DSLStats is suggesting a 24 hour average of 86000 CRCs with an hourly average of 3400 (using the modem uptime averages as the HG612 has only been on for about 6 hours).

So today is looking very bad but nothing significant has changed in the house. I have done a scan of the room where the routers are with my radio scanner tuned to 612 AM band but nothing found unless the aerial is actually within a couple of inches of two PSUs (The HG612 one and the HG635 one!) and then the noise is not loud. Next is to scan the house but as I said everything we are using is what we always use nothing new of different.

Stuart