Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[kitz]

Ive also not inspected that document in minute detail, but one of the things that immediately jumped out to me were that an awful lot seemed unfamiliar/weird in that document when it comes in comparison to any UK dslams/msans.

One of the things that I immediately noticed as a bit odd (aside from the sync rates), was the fact that the card only catered for 8 subscribers.  Todays MSANs for adsl2+ will have hundreds/thousands of subscribers.  A typical adsl2+ line card will hold up to 64 subscribers with a hub binding all the line cards together, meaning that even going back as far as 7/8 years each MSAN/DSLAM can support up to 10,000 lines. The last line cards that only had 8 subscribers in the UK that Im aware of would have been prior to 2003 such as the really old Westel MUX's.

Ive had a google and it seems that there are indeed some adsl line cards may be configured at line card level for HAM bands.   HOWEVER..  when it comes to to configuration of DSLAMS and MSANs you will usually find (or at least in the UK) that configuration is not done at line card, but the MSAN/DSLAM.. and the configuration will be ISP specific.

ie.  the ISP tells the MSAN manufacturer what type of profiles they want made available at time of installation.. and whether there is any customisation such as the DLM and every single MSAN/DSLAM for that ISP uses the same template.

Now the only UK ISP that Im aware of that doesnt/didnt use some sort of DLM was BE/o2.  Yes they had profiles such as interleaving.. but BE/o2 also had HAM filtering on every single one of their MSANs. 
I dont know if this is true or not..  (BE users are generally techie type users, who wont be fobbed off easily), but the answer that always came back was that it was a nationwide configuration on every single MSAN, that couldnt be changed by them and all their MSANs had to be configured the same.
Although BE configured their MSANs nationwide, there is also a possibility that an ISP could configure regionally. 

If your ISP does configure regionally, then the decission could have been made that all MSANs in locations XYZ will be configured with template A, and all MSANs in locations ABC will be configured with template B, during installation.

ADSL2+ MSANs/DLAMs are large units and Im afraid the bad news is that I seriously could not see them configuring them without a template that will affect all units in a similar way.  I do not see them having different configurations at a line or line card basis. If they wanted to do that sort of thing, then they'd implement a DLM.

You could try, but I think you may be on a hiding to nothing, because I really dont imagine they would send out a software engineer from the manufacturer to change the config of just one line card.  This type of configuration isnt something that would be done by a teleco (BT) engineer.. it will be done by who ever installed the DSLAM/MSAN.   By all means try it.. good luck... I think you will need it. Plus it could be different outside the UK.

Is Adtran related to Broadcom?

No. Adtran is a US manufacturer of broadband access products.  According to this they use Infineon (lantiq) chipsets.  Thats not to say that they wont ever use BCM, or havent in the past,  but at least for adsl2+ it looks like they use IFTN.

[konrado5]

I think it is not fair if my ISP enable HAM masks, if in my town nobody broadcast 160m radio, there are not any interferences. They explain: "it is vendor recommendation. We filter out frequiences which are the most interferences capable. This setting can cause little synchronization rate loss but it is stable service warrant. We set it without exceptions". They has wanted to denounce an agreement because they said: we can't change this setting.

Best regards
konrado5

[boost]

I've only seen one Adtran MSANs and it's vendor string was IFTN; luckily, not with a chipset code I've seen anywhere else (ala the dreaded 71C8). This was a lower end carrier unit so a full blown chassis from Adtran might well be sporting BDCMs or something else.

Your tie pair is more than likely to be part of a bundle of other pairs, probably 30 odd, further wedged into the line card.
I used to believe the 'line card' was a neat little slot in the exchange just for my modem too

Who is your ISP? Check their website for hints of which 'partners' they are using. Google past press releases for new contracts with people. Ring their helpdesk and throw some vague questions around?

[konrado5]

I have polish ISP service: Netia.

[kitz]

I think it is not fair if my ISP enable HAM masks, if in my town nobody broadcast 160m radio, there are not any interferences.

I fully sympathise, been there done it got the t-shirt... 
Heres one of my old bitloading graphs showing the effects of a HAM filter.

Over about 8 years there must have been hundreds of users that tried to get the filter removed, but the ISP said they couldnt do it.

[boost]

Is this HAM filter just a software setting or a physical thing? Power cutback to 0 across those tones?

Konrad:
What's the polish equivalent of ANFP?

What is the absolute worst case for what they are saying in terms of synch or synch speed?

What is the likelihood that disabling that thing will increase calls to their support desk?

Are there *any* ISPs in your area that currently do not utilise this setting? If yes, this could help you possibly.

[kitz]

Alcatel?

http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/press/2010/002100

also here

SDH network based mainly on Alcatel (Huawei and Lucent also used)

Alcatel-Lucent are documented to use Broadcom chips as well as their own ALCB.   
Mind you Huawei also use BCM, but their adsl2+ MSANs used to be IFTN

[kitz]

Is this HAM filter just a software setting or a physical thing? Power cutback to 0 across those tones?

Its not like in the UK how BE/O2 totally disabled, it looks like its done via a PSD mask.  There are tones in the middle which are totally disabled, but it also has the inverted 'U' shaped where its also cut-back on both sides of the disabled tones.   Konrado found a document showing that in Poland his tones were filtered due to it being a known HAM range.   I cant recall the link now, konrado will know it though.

[konrado5]

Is this HAM filter just a software setting or a physical thing? Power cutback to 0 across those tones?

This is software filter described here:
http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-G.992.5-200305-S/en
Page 18 (page 26 of PDF file). DSLAM doesn't block tones but it significantly lower power ouput. For example, if I lower SNR margin I have 415-473 gap, at 6 dB I have 410-477 gap.

What's the polish equivalent of ANFP?

UKE perhaps.
http://www.uke.gov.pl

What is the absolute worst case for what they are saying in terms of synch or synch speed?

They say nothing. I have service: maximal possible stable speed at the my location.

What is the likelihood that disabling that thing will increase calls to their support desk?

Very little. Up to september 2013 I have all tones enabled and I had stable service and 17800 kbps at 6.1 dB SNR margin. Today, I have only 14500 kbps at SNR margin 6.1 dB.

Are there *any* ISPs in your area that currently do not utilise this setting? If yes, this could help you possibly.

My ISP doesn't utilise this setting at every place. They utilise it on new DSLAMs. They changed DSLAM and introduced this setting. Here there is their stand at polish:
http://blog.netia.pl/netia/entry/ewolucja-dla-rewolucji#bco38060  (comment nr 183).

Best regards
konrado5

[konrado5]

My ISP old DSLAM was: Ericcson EDN312xp.

[kitz]

@ Sketel It is true, as recommended by the manufacturer of the equipment we used a mask for sub-band and cut out the part that is exposed to external noise and interference. This configuration can cause slight speed limit but ensures stable operation internet. We do not make exceptions to this configuration.

Having read what I can understand, Netia recently updated their whole network for Triple Play.  Theyve undertook a massive haul of their complete network, similar to what BT did for 21CN.  They will therefore be using MSANs... or ISAMs as Alcatel call them.


I just thought.. and a lightbulb moment...   didnt BE/O2 use Alcatel MSANs?

[konrado5]

One Netia helpdesk assistant said me DSLAM is probably Ericcson.

[kitz]

One Netia helpdesk assistant said me DSLAM is probably Ericcson.

How sure are you of that?  All the documentation Ive found about Netia's new network implies they are now using Alcatel Lucent.   (plus a few Huaweis)

AFAIK BE/O2 were the only UK ISPs to use Alcatel MSANs and they were the only UK ISP that had the HAM filter by the manufacturer.
Co-incidence? 

[konrado5]

This documentation says they use Alcatel Lucent on SDH. It say nothing about DSLAMs. Previous DSLAM was Ericcson EDN312xp/ R1A .

AFAIK BE/O2 were the only UK ISPs to use Alcatel MSANs and they were the only UK ISP that had the HAM filter by the manufacturer.
Co-incidence? 

"as recommended by the manufacturer of the equipment we used a mask for sub-band and cut out the part that is exposed to external noise and interference."
It implies they setted as recommended by the mancufacturer, not manufacturer himself.

Best regards
konrado5

[kitz]

Here you go...  look.. 

http://www.lightreading.com/ethernet-ip/uk-isp-uses-alcatels-msan/d/d-id/615649

LONDON -- Alcatel (Paris: CGEP.PA and NYSE: ALA) today announced that it has been awarded a multi-million Euro contract by Be, a new broadband service provider in the UK. Be will launch a full triple play offering that will initially consist of a 24 Mbit/s Internet service

... and there's Netia recently upgrading to a brand new network for triple play...  and supposedly using Alcatel.

Alcatel-Lucent today announced that Netia, Poland’s largest alternative telecommunications provider of Internet access and voice services, has selected Alcatel-Lucent’s Intelligent Services Access Manager (ISAM) platform

So you get a brand new DSLAM that suddenly sees HAM masking, just like how BE/O2 had HAM tones disabled.
Ive said right from the very beginning, months and months and months ago when you first mentioned about the missing tones that it could be something like BE/O2 users in the UK saw, but you said it wasnt possible.

To me the co-incidences are now beginning to look like a pretty sure fire bet that your ISP is using Alcatel MSANs...  and its Alcatel that are installing the HAM masks.

It say nothing about DSLAMs

It does!!!!   Read it again...  an ISAM is a triple play DSLAM.   
DSLAM/MSAN/ISAM all do a similar thing, just more advanced technology.   
DSLAM is only DSL.   MSAN & ISAM take voice.   
LLU providers use MSANs.  Your ISP is LLU.   They will be using an MSAN or ISAM.