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Author Topic: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?  (Read 11127 times)

boost

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 10:30:52 AM »

I enjoy reading your threads because I don't understand everything you're asking. It's thought provoking.

What are your thoughts on change of thickness of cable/gauge being your issue as les et al suggested? Let's assume this is the case... would an E side swap sort it? How likely is it your cable defect, if we can call it that, is replicated throughout your entire bundle? Would your ISP humour such a request?

What is your goal here? Intricate understanding or line perfection? They are two very separate goals and often we have to chase the former in order to get the 'CP' to instigate works to provide the latter, so I can understand where you're coming from if that is it :)
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kitz

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2014, 10:49:11 PM »

Could you estimate loss of synchronization rate caused by abnormalities noticed by burakkucat (something else than 1.8-2.0 Mhz gap). Is my average noise level very good or rather incredible giving 25.0 dB attenuation?

In a word no. Ive told you how to do the maths, if you want to do so then its up to you.
This is something I wouldnt even attempt on by own line, aside from the point that bit loading can vary if theres been any bitswap, its something that would take too long and for what benefit?



Another thing...  which slow lazy curve (sorry dont have the time or inclination to look back through so many posts which often contradict).
Would that be the one at around tone 50 - which I would discount because anything under tone 60 is going to be heavily affected by any PSD masks....
and if its one that starts to get better at around tone 250, then this is an area well known to be affected by crosstalk from adsl1/adsl2+ lines.
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konrado5

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2014, 10:59:51 PM »

I'd like to avoid misconception and I send once again my Hlog graph. Once kitz has took mistakenly other person Hlog graph for my Hlog graph. On this graph burakkucat has noticed:
Quote from: burakkucat
When first shown konrado5's Hlog graph, my initial thought was that it is somewhat abnormal. I still hold that view -- it is somewhat abnormal. Why do I make that statement? Because of the "slow lazy roll", the "undulations" that are present in the curve. What could possibly be a cause of the varying attenuation over the frequency range in question? Changes in impedance (i.e. the AC resistance) along the metallic pathway, between the CPE and the DSLAM, would be a good guess. What could possibly be the cause of such impedance changes? One possible answer is that the metallic pathway of the circuit in question could be made up of various lengths of different poundage cables.
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13884.0
Quote from: burakkucat
Looking at your Hlog graph, it does seem to be somewhat abnormal.  :-\

It does not show a smooth decay versus frequency that we would normally expect to see. The undulations may be the result of impedance mismatch, where different sections of cable (of different characteristics) have been joined together.
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13446.15

Impedance mismatch or adsl1/2 crosstalk?

Best regards
konrado5
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konrado5

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 11:02:00 PM »

Someone else in Poland also has 415-473 gap, but he has Hlog without "lazy roll" and "undulations". It implicates that PSD masks are not cause.
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konrado5

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 11:26:32 PM »

Quote from: boost
What is your goal here? Intricate understanding or line perfection? They are two very separate goals and often we have to chase the former in order to get the 'CP' to instigate works to provide the latter, so I can understand where you're coming from if that is it
I have two seperate goals: intricate understanding and nearly perfect line. Seond is my goal because I've noticed I have very good line. There is little to do in order to get nearly perfect line.
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kitz

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2014, 11:34:38 PM »

Show me a current hlog and QLN please.
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konrado5

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 11:50:11 PM »

OK. I attach my current Hlog and QLN (7 days uptime, 7 days ago mesaured). Is my QLN average level good or rather incredible?

Best regards
konrado5
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:59:05 PM by konrado5 »
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boost

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2014, 01:02:27 AM »

Quote from: boost
What is your goal here? Intricate understanding or line perfection? They are two very separate goals and often we have to chase the former in order to get the 'CP' to instigate works to provide the latter, so I can understand where you're coming from if that is it
I have two seperate goals: intricate understanding and nearly perfect line. Seond is my goal because I've noticed I have very good line. There is little to do in order to get nearly perfect line.

Good luck.

Sometimes, you can get more help with just a little more explanation in your posts though. I imagine there are lots of people who read your posts (I would be one of them) who would like to help you but have not amassed the DSL knowledge you have. Your posts are of a slightly assumptive nature, if you don't mind me saying, so in order to try and help, it means lots of donkey work which isn't necessarily aligned with my own DSL research at that point in time.

Does that make any sense? Apologies if not :)

My experience in the UK is that the ISP 'industry' is front ended by numpties who

1. have no interest in helping you
2. have no interest in understanding you
3. want to leave their annoying tiresome jobs as quickly as possible at 16:30

So, I sort of disagree with you on the 'it's easy to get a near perfect line' statement but maybe people are more diligent in your part of the world? :)

I've no doubt my lack of understanding for the various processes are part of the problem but part of me feels that I shouldn't have to become an expert in Company X's procedures just to get a fault fixed with the service I'm paying for :P
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kitz

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2014, 02:18:32 AM »

I was curious to see recent ones rather than old ones (btw - i think you can get these from dslstats rather than having to run scripts if its easier).

Whilst Ive been 'reading SNR' graphs for years, the art of reading hlog and qln graphs is fairly recent event as until a couple of years ago hardly any routers provided this information.  I think its fair to say that even most telecom engineers with a JDSU dont even know how to interpret the results.

None of us here know it all and we share and contribute as best we can in the areas that we feel most competant.  B*cats knowledge on electrics and impedance far outweighs mine, so I will bow to his knowledge when it comes to those topics.

We do know that hlog shows he physical characteristics of the copper path, but to me, that jaggedness in the latter tones would seem to indicate that even if your ISP hadnt disabled tones @ 1.8 - 2 Mhz then you would still be picking up interference from some RFI in the area somewhere. 

I wont profess to fully understand what is going on at around tone 50 on your line. But as mentioned this is an area that is heavily affected by PSD masking & power cut backs..  and in that particular frequency then various different masks are applied that are based on line length and location.     Here in the UK you could have 5 different lines on the same DSLAM with the same ISP and their PSD masks & powercut back could all be different. 

Having seen your attenuation per tone in the other thread here also made me think that there's possibly some power cut back going on in that area.  Not only are tones up to 60 a cross over region from upstream and downstream the later end is a crossover area with Annex_M and why they always on good lines show as a nice inverted 'U' shape.

So the thing is that although hlog shows the physical characteristics, it is also affected by any power cutback thats been applied too.


Again as mentioned the tones at around 200 when you see a shallow dish that rises again at 250 imply crosstalk from adsl1 lines, but Im not sure how (or even if it would) show on a hlog file.   QLN is the one that helps identify crosstalk.  Note how lovely and quiet your line is in the region where your ISP has disabled the tones...  thats because hardly any data will be transmitted across those tones on the dslam. 

The QLN will almost always show some jaggedness, crosstalk cant be avoided, but it will also ebb and flow as more come onboard the dslam causing 'shallow dish or bowl' shapes.

As an example look at my own line QLN..  see how in the first graph how I had a fairly smooth decline?  In the 2nd graph, now that Im beginning to see the effects of cross-talk, look how you start to see those shallow dish shapes appearing.


What I dont really see in any of your graphs is anything that your telco provider would be likely to fix, but if it comes down to the fact that there is a tiny bit of impedance on the line, or that different lengths of copper may be different gauges.. then no teleco is going to be ripping out wires that otherwise are functional.  There are millions/billions of lines around the world and I should imagine its rare to find one that is 100% perfect.   If the telco had to replace all the lines that showed some sort of small anomalies which werent really affecting the overall performance, when there are lines that had serious errors that remain unfixed...  it would be cheaper to replace with fibre than copper.


On the whole your line looks good.  Your SNR is damn good, you have some crosstalk, your ISP has blocked a range of frequencies which are troublesome. No its not perfect, but generally speaking its pretty good. If that line were mine, I'd be more worried about the errors being generated and Id up my target SNRm up to 3dB.  I'd also be changing that doorbell bell wiring of yours before you can expect a telco to go ripping up cables in the ground  :-\   


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ETA
oops forgot the attachments. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 02:59:49 AM by kitz »
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kitz

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2014, 02:25:26 AM »


So, I sort of disagree with you on the 'it's easy to get a near perfect line' statement but maybe people are more diligent in your part of the world? :)

I've no doubt my lack of understanding for the various processes are part of the problem but part of me feels that I shouldn't have to become an expert in Company X's procedures just to get a fault fixed with the service I'm paying for :P


Im not quite sure if konrado knows or appreciates the huge amount of time that we have spend typing posts.  I know myself and b*cat must have spent huge portions of time typing out replies to questions which we sometimes may feel arent being read correctly.   Thats also why we get annoyed when the questions get repetitive and we answer the same thing again and again.

Now Im not the slowest typist in the world, but the above post must have took up an hour or more.. add in other posts and its why Ive sat here for the past 5 or 6 hours solid just on this forum.   Like I say we try to help where we can, but again theres an extent to what we can answer..  and believe it or not I do attempt to have a real life too :D
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konrado5

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2014, 08:21:30 AM »

Quote from: kitz
We do know that hlog shows he physical characteristics of the copper path, but to me, that jaggedness in the latter tones would seem to indicate that even if your ISP hadnt disabled tones @ 1.8 - 2 Mhz then you would still be picking up interference from some RFI in the area somewhere. 
Jaggeddness in the latter tones  are caused by lack of signal (negative SNR on these tones despire lack of interferences - low QLN). It is caused by the fact that router can't measure attenuation correctly when it doesn't receive any signal. It is in turn caused by the fact the attenuation is ratio of received signal to brodcasted signal.
Jaggeddness is shown here:
http://www.arc.ro/userfiles/docs/ecomm/hst-3000-copper-and-dsl-product-presentation.pptx
On the slide 41 (attenuation up to noise here). But in this example, QLN also shows interferences. My QLN shows no interferences. It implicates I haven't got any interferences on 1.8-2.0 Mhz. I have only very low power output because of PSD masks.

Negative SNR:
Code: [Select]
430          3.1875
   431          -0.1250
   432          1.5625
   433          -0.5000
   434          -0.4375
   435          2.0000
   436          0.0625
   437          0.4375
   438          0.4375
   439          0.2500
   440          0.5000
   441          -2.7500
   442          0.1875
   443          0.3750
   444          0.3750
   445          0.1875
   446          -2.1250
   447          0.0000
   448          0.1875
   449          -0.9375
   450          1.3125
   451          -2.9375
   452          1.1875
   453          -3.2500
   454          1.0625
   455          -4.1875
   456          1.0000
   457          -2.1875
   458          0.9375
   459          -2.1250

Quote from: kitz
None of us here know it all and we share and contribute as best we can in the areas that we feel most competant.
Where could I ask very detailed questions? I'm very interested in intricate understanding of ADSL.

Best regards
konrado5
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 08:25:17 AM by konrado5 »
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kitz

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2014, 10:43:08 AM »

Quote
Where could I ask very detailed questions? I'm very interested in intricate understanding of ADSL.

and Ive told you several times that I dont know anywhere that would go into as much depth as we have with as much patience. 
Ive repeatedly said the questions you are asking require highly specialised answers from people in their field.  These people are not the sort who are going to sit on forums answering repeated and repetitive questions for free.   They are specialists and earn their money by giving formal lectures and inventing new technologies for dsl. 

 Im sure Ive already said at least twice the only place I know where people may have the answers you ask is the broadband forum.   I think youve already just about exhausted every other online resource or forum and none of them have given you as much time and attention as we have.   Good luck with the broadband forum, because I doubt I'd get in...  nvm be able to afford their joining fees.   Even then there's no guarantees that youd get the answers to the questions you are looking for.   
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lucas-10

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2014, 01:08:02 PM »

@konrado5 I don’t know if can help you but this link http://www.argus.info/fileadmin/downloads/argus_142/handbuch//022_ARGUS%20142_Manual_U_V_2_10.pdf page 49 suggest how calculate distance of reflection with Hlog graphic.

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konrado5

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2014, 02:45:22 PM »

Thank you very much for your finding.
Quote
Using the rule of thumb:

L[m] = 50 / f [MHz],
and knowing the frequency in MHz (in this
example 0.535 MHz), it is possible to
estimate the approximate length of the
stub line
It seems they suggest how calculate lenght of bridge tap. But they don't suggest how calculate distance of reflection from my home or from CO. I think it is possible to estimate approximate TDR from Hlog but I have to find how to do it. I'd like to see TDR of my line. I'm very curious of it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 02:51:34 PM by konrado5 »
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konrado5

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Re: Could someboby help me with Hlin stats?
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2014, 03:30:48 PM »

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