Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?  (Read 6553 times)

snadge

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451

As we all know the Twists in the Twisted Pair cable is what helps cancel out the Crosstalk and Interference through common-mode rejection ratio - I wondered... if the twist 'pitch' (twists per inch) differed along the loop (say different twist-pitch wiring was used between junctions) would it affect noise cancellation? or would it still work as it should?

I think it would be OK but thought I would ask..
Logged
Aquiss - 900/110/16ms - TP-Link AR73

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2012, 02:50:32 AM »

A good question.  :)

I would suspect that there would be no problem -- except for the person who connected a different specification cable into a segment of the overall circuit. (Assuming, of course, we are discussing Beattie's side of the NTU. Then watch out for Herr Flick of the Gestapo!)
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

snadge

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2012, 12:55:19 PM »

thanks B'Kat  :)

I thought it would be ok
Logged
Aquiss - 900/110/16ms - TP-Link AR73

Ezzer

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1713
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2012, 04:54:19 PM »

If there is any difference to be gained by modifiing the pitch then it would be a slight variation in pitch within a length.

It varies the harmonisation to signals along the length, so you pick up a tiny bit of lots of things, rather than a whole load of one thing.

The variation would only have to be slight and is probably within the normal manufacture of the cable.

Other wise the main benefit is avoiding precisely parallel runs of wires in close proximity.

At BT we were told not to use staples on twisted pair cables. The reason was staples can cause "cusioning" effect where the cable is squeezed under the staples so it looks like cusions all in a row. So flattening the wires inside. Fortunately if your stapler can be regulated so it sends the staples so they just touch the outer insulation without pressing on it /deforming it. then staples are OK.

I know this is going slightly off topic but how you install cabling is worth considering.
Cleats are easyest in order to retain the cable in the form it should be. Staples are much neater, although typical staple guns are flat at the edge where the staples are fired out. At BT we used guns which are tapered so we could get staples in properly along top edges of skirting or along door jams, etc

If you are considering using a staple gun. Make sure the cable is properly situated in the right place under the stapler. Fire a staple into the cable means pulling the whole lot out and starting over.

You will also need more cable than you think. I could get through 80m of cable in one run even in a domestic situation. When you concider going along skirting, around corners, over door frames etc. It eats up a supprising amount of cable.

Also pre plan the route and look out for heating pipes as you want the cable behing the pipes and you dont want to find the reel of cable the wrong side of the pipe as your fixing the cable.

Also if you have to thread the cable through a hole then if possible start fixing the cable the opposite  end to the hole, it means threading much less cable through.

 
Logged

snadge

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2012, 07:08:39 PM »

@ Ezzer - wow  :graduate: , many thanks for that detailed info, its not off-topic at all :) - please... more if you have it, I lap it up (remembering it long term is another thing though hehe)

glad you mentioned about the staples, before I moved our NTE-5 from living room to hallway it was stapled along roughly 7 meters of cable, it was really tight and squashing the cable like you say 'Cushioning' , I will watch out in future for that.

thanks
Logged
Aquiss - 900/110/16ms - TP-Link AR73

Ezzer

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1713
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2012, 09:32:23 PM »

No prob's. The stapler I had was with 2 settings. on the higher setting the staples would really come down and pinch the cable down. the second the staple would just rest on the outer insulation. Initally I prefered it because it looked neater.

One handy trick to help the staples blend in a bit. If you wipe just a little filler over each staple and run a wet finger over it so a tiny bit is either side of the staple it looks more tidy. If you really want to blend it in then run some filler all along the cable. between the cable and skirting/and or wall and again run a wet finger along. The one coat of paint over the top

We were taught at BT to try and keep the bends of the cable to about 40mm radius, Although in and around skirting you have to go tighter.

I would try and make the cable look as if its part of the moulding shape of the skirting or door/window frames. If the skirting is scrolled, try the cable within the scroll, Gently pull on the cable before each fixing so it lies neat and straight along whatever your attatching it to. Dont over pull or squeeze to hard with the hand holding the cable, so as not to make new wiggly bits in the cable for you to try and remove.

You can use the stapler as a guide to space the staples eavenly. Line the back of the stapler with the last staple so the next is the same distance. If cleating then use the length of your hammer as a guide for the distance to the next staple. BT states 450mm spaces between cleats for a vertical run (1 1/2 hamer lengths) 300mm for horizontal runs (one hammer lenght) so you reduce the drooping between cleats.

On horizontal runs with cleats, if you can try and have the nail below the cable. If you have brick face try putting the cable along the mortar in between the brick in deep enough. Putting the cleat in the vertical mortar. But before cleating into brick you might want to try a cleat in an obscure part of the wall in order to gauge how easly the cleat will go in.

Normaly on brick walls try and get the nail of the cleat in between the brick and the mortar. This is usualy where it will go in easyest and be held the best. Use the line of motar to give you a guide to get the cable straight and neat. Using a snap line. (A reel of string with a coating of chalk, very cheep and a very handy diy tool. Pull it out just like a tape measure Pull the string back and let it snap against the surface. You get a quick straight line as a guide which washes away.) On vertical runs try to start at the top and work your way down. Make gravity work for you rather that fight against it. You are not an octopus.

Try and get the cable along the top of skirting Avoid cableing along the front face of skirting and certainly not along the bottom if you can help it. And definately avoid carpet grippers. I'm sure Black sheep and others can testifi to the many many faults found due to carpet grippers.

Also running under carpets is to be avoided. Even if the cable is away from any traffic (areas where you walk over) which will crumble the cable to pieces quickly and give a dirty stripe along the carpet. Even along the edges furniture placed or wheeled on top will do eventual damage. If not that the you may be supprised how much carpet moves. That motion from side to side will wear out cabling even if its a few feet away from the traffic area.
I'm sure carpet must be one of the main causes for internal faults for pots.

The filler I mentioned before is handy to have in the squeezy tube with you. you can squeeze a bit up around any hole after the cable has been feed through and secured. Cover up any holes by mistakes with stapling or cleating. Also you can fix any holes gaps in general as you go along as you will suddenly see all sorts you never noticed before

If your using a calking gun (skelington gun) then remember the rule Only run the gun backwards with the bead of caulk/silicon going the opposite way to the gun if you are going to bring two surfaces together after wards. If caulking along a gap where the sufraces are already in final situ. Then you run the gun forwards, so the bead you leave is back in the opposite direction to the way the nozzle is pointing. This means the outgoing caulk is pushing down on the line of caulk just laid, so pushing it into the gap, Sealing and making sure it stays there.  It leaves a neat finish behind it which needs the minimal wipe down to smooth off if any at all and dramaticaly reduces the waste.

Other wise think about where high traffic areas are, doors swinging out, Kids, toys bikes, furniture, pets ( I remember trying to put right 6-7lots of cabling in a pub which the landlady's dog decided to rearrange and then "decorate" ah hem!)

And if you really disguise any cabling well, mention it to any work men/women in future. I was really proud of a very neat job I did of a long internal run that was a bit complex. Plugged in my butt phone "This number is defined as 0............." ? The carpenters apprentice was in the hall way calmly sawing through the skirting board oblivious to the apparent splinter which has copper wires  >:(

Sorry about the ramble and any spelling gramatical errors, I was nipping in and out of this reply whilst busy on other calls. Didn't realise how long I groaned on for.

 
Logged

snadge

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 10:10:00 PM »

tons of info there - I noticed that the staples were in the trough of the profile along the skirting AND there was filler on the staples too lol... just like you said..

thanks for all that, I will keep it in mind for when I am re-wiring, I have already been thinking about moving the NTE-5 up into the bedroom as the run (external) passes the bedroom where the PC is and currently the NTE-5 is under that room in the hallway, I could then place a wireless base station downstairs for the phone....we'll see, I may just run an LAN cable upstairs up through stud wall or externally

thanks again for that :)
Logged
Aquiss - 900/110/16ms - TP-Link AR73

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2012, 12:27:19 AM »

b*cat nods his head in appreciation of the words from 'one of the wise men'.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

Ezzer

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1713
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 08:22:22 PM »

If running a cable externally try to use external grade cable. Sun light will make the outer insulation of normal cabling brittle and it will eventually crack and fragment. Also this can also provide a tiny pipe for water to flow inside the property.

Painting the exterior of the cable would help as a sun block; if you do several thin coats as otherwise it looks tatty. Cheaper cleats tend to go brittle in the sun over time, or the nails rust.

When drilling through an exterior wall, drill from the inside out and tilt the drill, so that you drill downwards at about a 15 degree angle. This reduces the possibility of moisture coming into the interior. Although the outside where the cable comes out of the wall should be sealed with silicone. Structures like brick are porous. They will have water within them, and around the cable this water will sweat onto the cable and run along its length. 15 degrees in most cases would mean gravity works for you and keep the plaster and socket inside as dry as possible.

Check the other side of where the drill will pop out. For other cables, gas pipes, water pipes down pipes, soil pipes etc. If it’s cluttered then find another place to drill unless you are extremely confident. Never drill below the DPC and look out for a dense smooth brick along the base. Not too common but these tend to be very very hard. These are to be avoided.

Always check for mains wiring chased in the wall, one of those DIY detectors is well worth the money. Before you look for wires try it out where you know there is wiring. Like around light switches and sockets. So you get accustomed to how it behaves. Don't assume wiring has been chased in either vertically or horizontally around a socket or switch. You never know if some pilchard has done it diagonally. It does happen.

Start a masonry drill at right angles to the wall. Once it’s in a few milimeters then tilt the drill to the angle you want. Start slowly then speed the drill up. If the chuck is one which moves back and forth a bit on the hammer setting Get at least 6mm of depth before you switch to hammer as it may jump all over the place initially like a pneumatic drill giving you a new pattern on the plaster all-round the hole. (My mains Bosch drill was like this and caught me out the 1st time I used it, awful mess in quarter of a second)

If you place a paper towel under the hole, on the floor, up against the wall. Place something thin and a little heavier, like a piece of card along the edge of the floor by the wall (I used a thin slip of plastic about 0.5mm thick). This holds down the towel right to the wall edge catching all the dust. Makes it easy to tip the dust back onto the middle of the towel, making it easier not to spill. And if there’s a slight gap between the carpet/floor and skirting. The it can be pushed into the gap so you don’t get that little line of dust right in the corner.
If you ever get a little off cut of one of those brush style draught excluders, keep it with your drill as it makes the perfect means to sweep up the remaining dust off anywhere it settles on around where you’re drilling. In fact I bought a letter box one just for the brushes. One with each drill, plus one with my hand tools.

When drilling be aware of how far the drill bit will go into the wall. You want to back off pushing the drill too hard before the bit comes through the other end. This prevents your "Blowing out the brick"- where a huge chunk of brick comes away on the other side. If it’s taking some time to drill through then withdraw the bit periodically and wipe the end with a damp/wet cloth. This cools down the bit, keeping the outer layer hard. When the bit gets hot, it softens and wears out much more quickly. Whilst drilling if the bit is in deep in masonry then every 5 seconds or so withdraw the drill a little then proceed. This clears the dust around the bit so it cuts and spins more easily

Once through, an old bit of net curtain wire is ideal to push through the hole, attached to the cable in order to pull it through. Try and straighten about 0.5m of cable so it’s not too curved or wonky to make life easier. If there's a lot of soft insulation in the cavity that comes down blocking the hole. Keep the drill through and use that to draw the wire or cable through.

The cable that comes outside of the hole should always be cleated downwards from the hole, even if it’s going to be attached upwards on the wall. Just 2-3 inches. Leave a little loop before the cable goes off in whatever direction (unless straight down). Cleat each side of the loop to hold it but not at the bottom. You want the loop to curve a little away from the wall so as not to touch, with a 1/4 to 1/2 inch gap. This stops water running along the cable from rain etc. and all soaking the area around the hole. Keeping the loop away from contacting the wall gives less of a chance of a dirty/green line forming down the wall where the water all drips.

Have a look around at BT cabling at other properties to get a guide for ideas.

If you have rendering.... good luck, it’s not fun. If you have pebbledash render, don't bother trying to hammer cleats straight in. Get yourself "pin plugs" We had them @ BT, and they make life so much easier. They look like a tiny smooth wall plug just large enough for a pin/nail. Just use a 5.5mm drill to make holes where you need the cleats. Tap in the plugs then go along nailing the cleats. It’s great for very hard walls, render, and as for pebbledash. It's one of the worst jobs, I hated the stuff.

Also pre plan the route of the cable. Try to follow near the edge of a wall, Go by any existing pipes or features so the cable looks less obvious. Avoiding long runs parallel with power cables within 50mm If your cleating along an edge or feature which is distinctly wonky (e.g. on old cottages) you may want to follow the erratic line of the feature rather than have a straight cable run as the straight line can make both the property and the cable look odd.

When sealing the hole around the cable on the outside, best to use silicone. Put the nozzle right up against/into the hole between cable and masonry and let some ooze into the hole then letting a little build up on the outside. You can smooth it off with a wetted finger. That way it seals, holds the cable a bit and not much of an unsightly blob on the outside. Injecting a little into the hole around a bit of the cable secures this so it won't come off.

Other thing is which side of the cable you want the nail of the cleat to go. Ideally you want it on the opposite side to where the cable is most visible. Again just an aesthetic thing. Just trying to make the whole job as in obtrusive as possible.

And if you’re pinning a cable near soffits, don't try nailing into Calcium silicates. They look and feel a bit like asbestos. Similar whiteish grey colour. the stuff is just too hard to nail into.

One last note, if you’re about to drill through a wall which meant you've had to clear a small patch the other side where the drill will come out such as furnishings, books, ornaments. Cats tend to find the new bit of floor interesting and may decide this is a nice new cozy spot to curl up and sleep. Fortunately masonry bits are not exactly sharp, but will give a nasty painful prod once it comes through. Yes I am speaking from experience :-\
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 11:15:42 PM by Ezzer »
Logged

snadge

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 09:33:42 PM »

crikeys!  ::)  you could write a book on the subject  :graduate:

thanks for the bit about "blowing out the brick" - the Satellite installer done this and didnt even fill it with anything or cover it!!, about half the brick was missing. I eventually filled it myself

thanks again for all that info :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 12:08:45 AM by snadge »
Logged
Aquiss - 900/110/16ms - TP-Link AR73

Ezzer

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1713
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 11:24:14 PM »

Crikey is right, Didn't relise I waffled so much. I was dipping in and out of this site over a few hours adding to this. I think it also showed with the appauling spelling and grammer. I've done a quick modification and hope I've caught the main bits.

Not blowing a brick was a thing of honour amongst the engineers. But you never know if you are going into a brick that may have been weakened during construction then further by frost. Other wise some properties you can get very soft brick. I can think of one cottage I went through the wall in under a second. It was too soft to hold a cleat outside so I had to back it up with silicone. I could mark the bricks with my fingers. It was like a harder form of Oaisis I reckon if I looked the place up on google earth street veiw I might see the indents left by my ladder.

If you really do blow a brick then with the magic of silicone you can glue it back.  :blush:
Logged

snadge

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2012, 12:12:45 AM »

I reckon if I looked the place up on google earth street veiw I might see the indents left by my ladder.

 :lol:

my Dad looks at places where he's worked all over the world on Google Earth and in the Algerian desert there are still oil barrels sitting there from 25 years ago that he placed there and tracks from the bulldozer... it amazes him, he looks at them every other night hehe
Logged
Aquiss - 900/110/16ms - TP-Link AR73

Ezzer

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1713
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2012, 03:02:32 PM »

Thats amazing. Imagine, he was placing those barrels without realising some one will pass a short distance away, taking some photos whichyears later he would be able to view 25 years later from his own home along with the rest of the world.  ;D

Looking at the aerial veiw of my parents home on the last but one picture taken. We can see my dad in the back garden carving up whats left of the chopped down apple tree. The smudges can be resolved just enough to make out whats going on.

Logged

snadge

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2012, 06:10:05 PM »

oh it was the ariel view lol, he also says that one of the guys driving the bulldozer (my dad was the mechanic) went in a bog and it sunk right up to the top of the cabin... its still there too this day hehe - he worked for Texas Instruments (I think) who were surveying for oil in the desert, it was his job too keep all the machines working
Logged
Aquiss - 900/110/16ms - TP-Link AR73

renluop

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3326
Re: Does Twist Pitch have to be the same along entire run of your loop?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2012, 09:36:12 PM »

Quote
oh it was the ariel view lol,
Indeed "lol" I never knew that soap powder packets had such quality lenses in them, and the white balance really stunning ;D
Logged
Pages: [1] 2