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Author Topic: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit  (Read 23383 times)

snadge

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just been on the phone to Liam at Sky Network Services, these are the engineers that deal with the core network (not exchange engineers) , was on phone for 50 mins, he agree's we have a problem, explained everything to him

he disagree's that it's anything to do with SVBN , fair enough, I can only make decisions with what evidence I have got.

anyway, he said he is going to run a report back to Stanley (the guy who called me from escelations few weeks back) and he thinks they will be booking one of sky's specialist broadband/network engineers, theres only 10 in the whole country he said...lol so wont be anytime soon, but also book a BT Broadband Engineer for same day so sky engineer can shadow him at the exchange or patch points (basically so they can get full access, as BT Broadband Engineer has full access to everything)

I have to say I was impressed, although, I am certain that the cause is a 2nd noise source eating into the frequencies and the higher the frequency the more it eats into it, he didnt seem to concerned about that though which left me a little dis-heartened, I said Im sure that when the problem is located and removed that will right itself anyway, I think this 2nd noise source is making the AM Radio Mast spikes more prominent and making it look like they are the culprit, I know this because all my neighbours are affected by these but they barely make any impact on their SNR , I had them when I was with o2, but didnt stop me from getting a 19Mb sync!  as you can guess he was more concerned about the AM Radio Masts noise , I told him that it may be the Junction Box on the end and he agreed..

A way to explain it would be, its like there is interference weaking my signal which allows the AM Radio Masts eat further into it, but that source of noise is also eating into my signal, probably more than the masts!!  I will show them my graphs ..see below

so he gunna run some tests and do up a report with suggestion of getting a special sky network engineer out with a BT LL14 Broadband Engineer out too try and locate the problem and Stanley (the escalations guy) will ring me tonight or over the weekend.

edit: i forgot too tell him about:
1. upstream attenuation fluctuates
2. speed went up to 13.5Mb after A) line install and B) once during heavy rain but went back down A) after using phone and B) rain stopped

:)

example BEFORE @ 17-18Mb: <----------------------------> AFTER @9-11Mb
see how the slope is steeper as you go up the frequencies!! 
and you have AM Masts Noise (those two major spikes) & some other form of noise
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 02:42:48 PM by snadge »
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kitz

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2012, 07:54:35 PM »

1st graph looks normalish for a line with a small amount of AM radio mast interference -
Its hard to say exactly from the graph, but it doesnt look like its costing you much speed probably <100kbps. If it wasnt for those 3 tiny blips then the line would be good.

2nd graph..   lots of EMI from an additional source.

>>> but that source of noise is also eating into my signal, probably more than the masts!!

Much more...  its affecting bit loading across all the subchannels, which is why your speed is so much less.
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 08:10:41 PM »

1st graph looks normalish for a line with a small amount of AM radio mast interference -
Its hard to say exactly from the graph, but it doesnt look like its costing you much speed probably <100kbps. If it wasnt for those 3 tiny blips then the line would be good.

2nd graph..   lots of EMI from an additional source.

>>> but that source of noise is also eating into my signal, probably more than the masts!!

Much more...  its affecting bit loading across all the subchannels, which is why your speed is so much less.

yup, which is what I tried to put across to the engineer, but he said he wasnt too concerned with that and was more concerned about the radio Masts noise, we did agree that once problem is removed it will all be righted anyway - so I emailed thos graphs to sky asking them to pass them on as it was urgent, I hope he gets them so he can see what I mean - I dont know what he was looking at or how its mapped out too him, he had to keep generating maps just for certain parts of the spectrum...it didnt seem like he was looking at the entire spectrum, he kept saying "just a second while I map it out" and it really seemed liek he was generatin map/graph of ranges of tones (that he probably input)

anyway - I hope het gets those pictures, he will see why I think its something esle and NOT the radio masts - he thinks its the radio masts, he even talked about RF3 filters but I dont think thats gunna work, he said he is trying to avoud that - he then said there has been lots of impulse noise on my line too... he wants the engineers to start at the JB on the end, I told him I had my suspisions about that BUT one neighbour on BT is not affected, and the fact it happens the very second we were switched to SVBN seems to point to the exchange...but he was adamant the hardware was not a problem... we'll see...
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kitz

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 09:11:57 PM »

>>> but he said he wasnt too concerned with that and was more concerned about the radio Masts noise,

But from the first graph the radio mast noise isnt the problem..  thats not what is costing you your speed.   Its what ever is chipping away at all the other sub-channels too that is the problem.  I just hope for your sake he doesnt get too focussed on those particular channels without looking at the broader spectrum (sorry pun intended).

>>> he even talked about RF3 filters

RF3 filters block out frequencies outside the adsl range.. so unsure if this will be a solution for your problem.  Perhaps someone with more knowledge in this area can comment more on this topic.
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 09:22:13 PM »

Ive heard RF3 filter may cause more problems than resolving them,

i just had a nice call from Stanley @ Escalations, he is actually part of the CEO's office as he received my complaint there, he is dealing with it all now and he will be my go-between to Liam the engineer - I told him my concerns about what ive just discussed above, so he asked me to send the graphs to him via email (to the CEO's office lol) and he will forward them to Liam... :)

so ive sent those graphs and my theorys about it being other noise making the masts be able to seep further in because its weakened, rather than the actual masts noise itself beign the cause... hopefull when he looks at the graphs he will say to himself ".......ahh!"  hehe

I also told him what I forgot to tell him about the speed increase to 13.5Mb when
A) it rained heavily for 12 hours during the middle of the night, dropped back down when dried up
B) same thing happened after new line from JB was installed, up to 13.7Mb, but soon as she used the phone 1 hour later and I rebooted the router it went back down to 11Mb (I was rebooting a fwe times before she used the phone and it stayed there as I was testing SNRM reductions too see what I could get, I could get 16Mb on 3.5db and would have been happy with that even...

so , he said Liam wants to run tests over few days before deciding fully on these engineer visits, BUT, its looking like thats whats going to happen, Stanley told me he has dealt with him before and he is very good and he is confident that its going to be repaired :)   which, if these special engineers come out and stick at it, theres no reason it cant be resolved, all they need to do is check the SNR spectrum at each point to help locate it, and im sure they must have some EMI/RFI detection kit...  easy job!!!

I should work for sky hahaha I wish!!
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kitz

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2012, 11:06:15 AM »

>> Ive heard RF3 filter may cause more problems than resolving them,

Yes me too :(
 
IIRC Azzaka from Zen had an RF3 (not to be confused with RF2) filter on his line a few years back which were used on some lines in his local area because of radio interference.  I dont think he had any particular problems with his other than a reduction in attainable sync speed.


I really hope that all goes well for you now..  and that finally someone at sky seems to be taking proper notice. :)
Good luck :fingers:
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2012, 12:02:44 PM »

thanks Kitz... :)

I hope so too...  I really like sky and WANT to stay with them...  :fingers: :fingers: :fingers:
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burakkucat

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2012, 11:46:49 PM »

With reference to an RF3 a certain naughty-cat installed one in the line at The Cattery, last year.  :blush:

See --

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9440.msg192760.html#msg192760
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9680.msg195687.html#msg195687
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2012, 09:43:49 AM »

With reference to an RF3 a certain naughty-cat installed one in the line at The Cattery, last year.  :blush:

See --

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9440.msg192760.html#msg192760
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9680.msg195687.html#msg195687

thanks B'Kat - Iam wanting to avoid this is possible, I cant forsee an RF3 completely resolving my issue - if Stanley calls saying thats what he wants to do now instead of bringing someone out I will agree (as I have too) but I will express that Iam not happy about it...but will give it a go

I read your posts, you mention it was just your throughput that was better? was there any changes in sync rate? how much?

mine is so badly affected i THINK its beyond the scope of an RF3 filter, not sure how they work but surely it would have some impact on the DSL signal as a whole (may make it a little better, but not much)

thanks for posting your experience
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burakkucat

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2012, 07:42:32 PM »

Snadge,

At the time when that RF3 was installed in my line, I was not monitoring the status as comprehensively as I do now. Back then I was using a Netgear DG834Gv5 (with a Conexent chip set) and not the 2Wire 2700HG which is now my device of choice.

To have achieved an N% increase in throughput, I must have also achieved an N% increase in sync speed (at a minimum).

As to whether an RF3 will help, the surest way will be just to test.  :)
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 04:49:27 PM »

Snadge,

At the time when that RF3 was installed in my line, I was not monitoring the status as comprehensively as I do now. Back then I was using a Netgear DG834Gv5 (with a Conexent chip set) and not the 2Wire 2700HG which is now my device of choice.

To have achieved an N% increase in throughput, I must have also achieved an N% increase in sync speed (at a minimum).

As to whether an RF3 will help, the surest way will be just to test.  :)

Iam worried that they will stick that on, get small increase and try to fob me off with that - as soon as he said "RF3 filter, but trying to avoid that" my heart sunk! :(

UPDATE:

the SNS (Sky Network Services) Engineer called before – he said he had been getting my emails with my graphs, he said that he would like to get another BT Broadband Engineer out on his own (without sky engineer) because the last one didnt do the job and if they got a Sky Engineer out and the problem turned out to be on BT’s loop then they would be charging BT for the call out, and this happens a lot of the time he says, he reckons if it does happen then when BT get the bill they could and probably would say that they refuse to pay because they weren't given a chance to fix it, if the 1st broadband engineer couldnt stay to do it then you should have told us and we would have arranged another...
 
so...  to make sure that doesnt happen, he wants to get another broadband engineer out and if he is unsuccessful they will get a Sky Engineer out with a BT Engineer.
 
its been arranged for next Friday afternoon, the engineer I spoke to on the phone (Liam) has taken my mobile number so he can call me directly on the day so he can talk to the BT engineer, so the BT engineer doesnt have to go through the “co-op” system which can cause problems ... he said he may give you some rubbish like “iam not allowed to speak to him” but he can...so this should be interesting...
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Black Sheep

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 10:52:43 PM »

If Sky haven't requested a co-op call, then the engineer doesn't have to speak with the ISP. On every single BB job, there is a certain line that very simply states 'Co-op call required'. It's either set to a 'Y' flag, or an 'N'. I won't insult your intelligence explaining what the letters indicate. ;) :)

As an aside, if the flag is set to 'Y' and we dont make the co-op call, we lose the entire call-out fee.

Just thought it worth a mention, might be best to give Liam a ring back and insist on a co-op call. 
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 08:05:20 PM »

hi BS - I may be wrong but I THINK it IS on a CO-OP job... but Liam said something about it can be difficult getting through to the BT Engineer because of the call center or something, or he has to explain things to someone at a call-center who then has to relay it back to the BT engineer...I wasnt sure but he did say it would make life easier if he could just take my mobile so he can call him directly and thus removing the 3rd party call center or such... but as you say, if theres a chance the BT Engineer may say that he doesnt want to speak to him then theres a chance it may not be a co-op, I dont have Liam's number but I could contact the escelations rep who is monitoring it all - at end of day its his fault if the BT Engineer refuses to speak because its a non-co-op job then thats a big mistake by the sky engineer for not making it a co-op job... but I think it will be, he may have suggested he may refuse to because it simply isnt going through the proper channel of communication

 ...watch this space...lol
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snadge

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2012, 12:05:11 AM »

well today went quite badly   :(

- around 3:40pm the sky engineer called to give me a "heads up" (warning) about the BT Broadband Engineer saying he already spoke to him and been arguing with him on the phone, I asked what was up? and he said he was giving him the old "we dont guarantee speeds over the network / what he is getting is good for his area" shebang - but he told him I have had 18Mb for years and now have 10-11Mb because of noise/interference on the line, explained the whole thing - he said he was very argumentative and dismissive about it all and had a bit of an attitude, so he called me to let me know so that if he refuses to do anything or fobs me off that I was just to keep calm and let him get on with it and they will get a sky engineer out with another BT engineer later...  oh dear I thought!!

20 minutes later he arrived and he had a right chip on his shoulder and a stinking attitude problem, he was very condesending and rude, I dont want anyone to think that Iam slagging off ALL BT OR Broadband Engineers here mind...because Iam not, just this one... so if any BTo staff are reading this please dont hate me :(
 anyway,I was glad the sky engineer warned me, our lass couldnt believe his attitude like..and she was only there about 50% of the time, I showed him my graphs etc but he just kept shrugging his shoulders and shaking his head, I mentioned the fluctuating upstream attenuation and he replied with "it always goes up & down, what is it 1.3Mb?" ...lol... I said "no, this is the attenuation, it should be a static figure so it indicates a physical problem somewhere.." his reply was "pffft!!! you know more than me mate..!!" ...

Again he went on about my connection being fine and they dont guarantee speed etc etc blah blah..., he just didnt want to do it! , so I said to him I can understand that you dont guarantee speed from a wholesale point of view, but when the customer has had 18Mb for years previous and a fault has caused the connection to drop to 11Mb and sky are paying BT for someone to come out too fix it...why cant they do that or even try?, I cant see what the problem is? - his reply was "well... we may never get your speed back...thats what the problem is?"...with a assertive look on his face , after that I just gave up all hope.

he proceeded to test in the phone port of my filtered faceplate, I asked him if he wanted me to remove it..he said "why?" .. I said "because its a filtered faceplate and thats the phone port, it will filter the broadband out" - he said "I know its a filtered faceplate" with smirk on his face and then he shook his head, he then unplugged the JDSU and got a posi driver and removed it himself...

he tested the ADSL on the JDSU and said "see? your lines clean.." and he started to shove stuff back in his bag.. he showed me the result, it said 11Mbps 100% capacity - I told him they all said that on previous visits because thats the sync rate inclusive of the noise on the line... he sorta huffed & sighed, I could tell he was miffed and letting me know about it - so he said I will test the pair, I said it will probably pass cos all other engineers pair quality tests did... he said quietly under his breath "well there no noise on your line then is there"... he knew I had to be nicey nicey and took full advantage of it, think he was looking for excuse to fall out and leave, Im starting too wonder if my case if hot topic in the local BTo bait cabin at lunch times...lol.. slagging me off and he's one of them. or he is a supervisor / senior engineer who is pally with the Manager who has expressed his dis-like to my case because im sucking them dry of engineer time?? I just cant fathom the reason for this attitude from him and the fact BOTH Broadband Engineers refused to diagnose the problem? I know both were here at 4pm on a Friday..!! so probably chomping at the bit too get away - pee'd off cos GOT to work late cos some snotty kid wants faster broadband!!

Anyway, I tried to break the ice and change it to a more friendly atmosphere by offering him a cuppa but he refused, so we sat in silence while he performed tests and scribbled in his notebook , the end result was that there was wideband noise on the line (oh, I thought he said it was clean?...lol) , he said the reading (whatever it was) should be -50 to -60db and mine was -34db which indicated a problem , he said he was running over his shift already (4:20pm?) and he would continue with it tomorrow, or if not tomorrow it would be monday or tuesday (bank holiday?) - I told him it all started when I was switched over to SVBN but he said makes no difference because its only a jumper thats removed that diverts the phone signal from BT to SKY (still a physical change though? - ive said all along I think it could be sky's telephony ISAM) - he asked if I know what a main frame was? I said I know off the MDF yes, he asked if I knew what one looked like? I asid ive seen pictures yes.. then he smiled and asked what I done for a living? and I said I work in IT fixing PC's etc offering support?- he smirked, nodded his head and rolled his eyes with raised eye brows as he looked away and said "ahh right!! -" laughed then began to explain the wiring from the MDF etc - im not good at explaining these things but if you had seen him doing it; it was as if to imply "right..so you know nothing about it then!!" - he had said some other things which were rude too.. like saying he was gunna test what sky were outputting at the exchange, I told him it was on 20Mb profile, he condescendingly said (and said it s-l-o-w-l-y with a funny look on his face) "i MEANT down in the exchange...ON SITE!" - you had too see it too understand what I mean, our lass couldnt believe it like, she says I should complain... his whole attitude stunk and Im at a loss as too why? maybe he had real beef with the sky engineer or just hates sky full stop? hates his job? I just dunno...

Anyway, the sky engineer called me back and said this sort of thing happens daily for sky, that BTo keep letting them down because the broadband engineers dont want to do the work or dont have the skills/training to do so and he is arguing the toss with BTo Managers day in and day out- he says he spends a lot of time instructing the Broadband Engineers (over the phone) at jobs they should be able to do and that most of the time when SNS Engineers are called out it turns out too be a fault/problem on BT's loop that they should have addressed. He said the director of SNS was in the office and he was going to present my case to him as yet another example of BTo letting them down because it needs addressing, he said he will check the notes on Tuesday to see what he does...but he says he thinks he will just sign the job off and if he does then they will book a Sky Networking Engineer out with another BT Broadband Engineer who will allow the SNS Engineer access to all parts of the loop ....and hopefully it will get sorted then.

again this not a stab at BTopenreach or its engineers , the previous 6 i have had here were nice enough, even the last broadband engineer was a nice lad, just couldnt/wouldnt do the job... but this one left an impression.  so BS & co.. pleeeeaaasssee dont hate me lol :) Iam just telling you all what happened today

TUNE IN NEXT WEEK FOLKS!!!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 12:12:44 AM by snadge »
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burakkucat

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Re: Sky Network Services calls - Special Sky Network Engineer visit
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2012, 12:34:56 AM »

  >:D  Grrr, hiss, spit!  :angry:  snadge has had the "pleasure" of one of the "rotten apples" from the Openreach engineering barrel!

As for that poor test result Mr Grumpy obtained, I think it was the AC balance. Black Sheep will confirm it but I think -60 dB is what should be obtained on a good line.
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