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Author Topic: Old TVs post DSO  (Read 7857 times)

sevenlayermuddle

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Old TVs post DSO
« on: September 20, 2011, 10:31:48 AM »

We've the long awaited (or dreaded) Digital Switchover coming our way soon, which I thought would spell the end for out kitchen TV (30 year-old B&W portable) as well as some slightly newer tellies in the spare rooms.  None of these have Scart inputs, and it's not easy to find a freeview box with modulated output.  I've also got a 'retired' but working spare DVD player but, owing to absence of Scart on the TVs, it wasn't easy to unite it with these TVs in the spare rooms.

Then I noticed this, a feeview box with RF modulator...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Icecrypt-T5000-Freeview-Receiver-Modulator/dp/B003NEDW3M

It's just arrived and I've just plugged it in and it seems to work fine with that old kitchen portable.  Then out of curiosity I tried something else... I plugged a DVD player into the box's Scart input, and hey-presto, it all works!  Well worth considering if you've some old TVs and would like to continue using them.   :)

The only annoying thing is that when I ordered last week I paid £17 odd at play.com.  This week, the price had near doubled which is a pain as I want at least one more now!    >:(

Note the above is based on first impressions.  For all I know other issues may crawl out the woodwork to change my assessment, but it's looking promising so far
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tonyappuk

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 10:56:32 AM »

From the Amazon technical spec. the receiver will only produce standard definition (SD) pictures. This is not likely to worry your kitchen B & W tele as it couldn't display them but it is a limitation to be aware of.
Tony
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 12:04:16 PM »

For all I know other issues may crawl out the woodwork to change my assessment
Hmm, glad I added that qualifier.    I'm still VERY pleased with it as it will extend the life of my old TV, and I may even order another. But...

...The EPG seems to only display data from other channels that share the same multiplex as the channel currently being watched.    So for example, if you are watching BBC1 then the guide for BBC1, BBC2 etc is fine, but EPG for ITV1 is empty.   Change to ITV and then the ITV data is displayed, but the BBC guide depopulates.

So not something I'd recommend for any other reason than it's modulated RF output.
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tonyappuk

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 12:14:13 PM »

Just to clarify I should have said " couldn't display HD pictures" in case anyone was confused.
Tony
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HPsauce

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 12:17:38 PM »

a feeview box with RF modulator...

Another trick that often works is to feed the SCART output from a very cheap Freeview box to an old Video recorder to do the modulation.  ;)

Sounds a bit messy, but once it's all set up and tuned it works simply enough, though it's another box to plug in.
(Though not all VCR's will do this, most do)
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 12:46:08 PM »

a feeview box with RF modulator...

Another trick that often works is to feed the SCART output from a very cheap Freeview box to an old Video recorder to do the modulation.  ;)


Yes, that would have worked too and I have at least two old VCRs gathering dust,  but that setup has the drawbacks you mention.  Moreover, if one forgets to power it off when not in use (as I probably would), it adds to the electric bills. Older VCRs weren't known for their energy efficiency.   But the biggest drawback is that the main reason I still like my old B&W portable is that it's small and unobtrusive, ideal for a kitchen.  By the time I've sat it on top of a big old VCR it's not very unobtrusive at all.   :(

Something like this may have solved the problem...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-Scart-Coax-Video-Modulator/dp/B000M6SMKW

..but you then have to add the cost of a freeview box (and scart cable, if you've none to spare) before reaching the goal of working telly.  The Icecrypt just seemed a nice, elegant, solution.
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HPsauce

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 12:50:20 PM »

The Icecrypt just seemed a nice, elegant, solution.
Indeed.

Just pointing out that many people will have the means to sort it out (maybe temporarily) with stuff that's mostly "lying around".
And simple Freeview boxes are being given or thrown away left, right and centre as people upgrade to PVR's.
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tonyappuk

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 01:34:15 PM »

Some time ago we replaced our kitchen TV with one from Argos. This is a 16" Alba flatscreen with built in Freeview (only SD of course) and because it is a flat screen LCD it takes up less room than the CRT version it replaced. At the time it was £99 but they have them now for £89. It does have the disadvantage of cheap LCD screens that the viewing angle is a bit restricted but for a kitchen TV it is OK.
Tony
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HPsauce

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 01:52:43 PM »

It seems to be a common presumption that to make effective use of HD TV it needs to be about half the size of the viewing distance.
So if it's 6' from your sofa (maybe 8' from your eyes) then a 48" is the "right" size.
I presume this is due to the normal level of detail that the human eye can perceive.

A kitchen TV of maybe 14" or 16" size isn't going to show HD in any meaningful way (even if it could) unless it was right in front of you just a couple of feet away.

As an aside I find that most Freeview channels give a noticeably better picture than the analogue equivalent even when from an external digibox. SCART is usually better than modulated though, but residual signals from broadcasts can also degrade the quality if there's still a connection to an aerial.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2011, 02:29:13 PM »

Some time ago we replaced our kitchen TV with one from Argos. This is a 16" Alba flatscreen with built in Freeview (only SD of course) and because it is a flat screen LCD it takes up less room than the CRT version it replaced. At the time it was £99 but they have them now for £89. It does have the disadvantage of cheap LCD screens that the viewing angle is a bit restricted but for a kitchen TV it is OK.
Tony

That does sound tempting but for a small screen I'd argue that B&W has advantages, it's easier on the eye, hence my liking for that old portable.   And being easier on the eye it's easier to watch with one eye while you're cooking, without setting fire to the frying pan.   I think I've read scientific explanations this effect in the past, something to do with the way the eye strives to perceive detail.

I know... I could buy a nice new LCD and then turn the colour setting down to zero but, even with my sometimes non-conformist approach to technology, that just doesn't seem right.   :D

A kitchen TV of maybe 14" or 16" size isn't going to show HD in any meaningful way (even if it could) unless it was right in front of you just a couple of feet away.

I would hope that a TV or freeview box with HD ( DVB-T2) capability should be able to at least pick up the HD channels like BBC HD and then display them in SD.  That's not important at the moment since I believe that pretty much all HD broadcasts are also broadcast on the SD channels, but I can imagine it being a slight issue in years to come.  By that time mind you, my old kitchen portable, if not myself, will likely have turned to dust. :)
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 02:37:25 PM »

As an aside I find that most Freeview channels give a noticeably better picture than the analogue equivalent even when from an external digibox.

PS:  I meant to comment on that, too, but forgot.

I basically agree - freeview definitely looks better.  But picture detail is lost.  If you get the chance, compare a scene that deliberately features some scruffy unshaven character with stubble on his chin.  Chances are the stubble will disappear when you switch to from analogue to freeview.   Tony may know better, but I think that's a deliberate ploy by the broadcasters... digital TV is basically MPEG, which is a compressed format.  By 'smoothing' the picture before encoding it they are removing noise, hence it compresses better, but it does result in loss of detail.

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HPsauce

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 02:53:19 PM »

but it does result in loss of detail.
It varies by channel, they definitely don't all use the same bandwidth.

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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2011, 03:36:22 PM »

but it does result in loss of detail.
It varies by channel, they definitely don't all use the same bandwidth.

Absolutely.  My 'main' TV system is setup around an open-source PVR (mythtv), that simply records the broadcast transport stream bit-by-bit, which means the recorded file sizes are indicative of the bit rate.

File sizes vary of course, but an hour of BBC1 typically produces a file that's a bit over 2GB.  An hour of film 4, usually well under 1GB.  One artefact of Film 4's low bit rate, that I find very noticeable, is a pixelation that occurs when a scene makes a transition whereby detail emerges out of a dark scene.  Same is noticeable when if the producer choses to slowly fade in the credits over a black screen, in which case the text often appears momentarily pixelated until it reaches full brightness.  I've only seen that on the low bitrates, like Film 4.

As another aside, I've recently enhanced my system with a blu-ray player, and wow - now that's a good picture, and justifies the whole large-screen revolution for me.  Best I've bought so far is BBC Planet Earth, which I probably under-appreciated when first broadcast, but in full HD it's absolutely mesmerising.   

Blu Ray makes me want a bigger telly though, mine's 'only' 40 inch, and I'm really struggling to get purchase approval for a new one.  I will try HP's argument about screen size being half the viewing distance but I suspect I'll just get reminded how new the existing one is, and how much it cost.   :'(

« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 04:52:04 PM by sevenlayermuddle »
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HPsauce

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2011, 03:45:36 PM »

Well we have a 32" HD TV and you don't really notice much difference on HD programmes as we watch it from over 3 times that distance - typically 10'.

But my son has a 42" one that he (and we occasionally) watches from about 7' away; that really works well on HD programmes and blu-ray discs, plus the games on his PS3.
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tonyappuk

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Re: Old TVs post DSO
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2011, 07:20:18 PM »

Being retired for more than 20 years means I have no real contacts with current tv operations and the observed loss of detail is a common criticism but why it happens I don't know. I have always thought that it must be due to the movement interpolation used during the encoding process and the example of stubble losing definition could be due to small positional changes. It is certain that some viewers see defects in digital TV programmes much more than others. My son, for example, is annoyed by jaggies and other funnies on fast movement in football games which I don't see at all. Must be my advanced years!
Tony
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