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Author Topic: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!  (Read 38558 times)

burakkucat

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2011, 07:54:24 PM »

Quote
Batmans
Increment the first letter and you get . . . catman.   ::)
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razpag

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2011, 08:43:15 PM »

My apologies ....... I assume it's Comissioner Garfield who rings you on the 'Catphone' ??  ::)
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burakkucat

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2011, 10:08:01 PM »

 :lol:
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DTMark

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2011, 04:07:47 PM »

This thread intrigued me, as it's an issue we have here and I have never been able to even get close to a sensible answer to this.

My last attempt to do so was to email an ISP who shall remain nameless. Who then chose to completely ignore the two questions I asked.

This would be for the purpose of having an ADSL backup to 3G in case it goes down as once, it did, for 48 hours. I can tether my O2 mobile and just about get by with 1Meg, so that suffices, but a fixed line solution should be better.

The email is self explanatory. Sorry about the backslashes, that's how the response came back.


>We cancelled our landline years ago as it can\'t carry a broadband
>service. It can have ADSL but only at 1.5Mbps which is useless to us,
>so we use 3G which is 4x faster.
>
>Now given the line is short (3682 metres confirmed from BT database,
>2500m straight line from exchange), I\'m told this might be because the
>house has a \"star wiring\" configuration (which it has). For example
>you can only get sync on one of the two \"master sockets\"
>(from the 1950s or 1960s perhaps) - the longer circuit that doesn\'t
>have the unnecessary GPO box inline - it\'s all pretty ancient.
>
>Now if I sign up for your offer that\'s on at the moment to get the
>line set back up just as a backup to the 3G for if/when it goes down:
>
>And I choose the \"I don\'t have a BT socket\" option and pay the
>49.99 for a new installation..
>
>What happens?
>
>1. The existing line is used, nobody attends, the wiring remains and I
>end up paying 49.99 for nothing; 2. Someone comes round and whether or
>not they use the existing pair that comes here, a new NTE socket is
>installed and all the extraneous wiring and GPO boxes are removed
>possibly enabling the line to carry a broadband service (since in
>theory a 3682m line should be able to achieve one)
>
>When we had the line we investigated getting an NTE put in to see if
>the line was salvageable, but daft figures were quoted for this, it
>would be cheaper to get a \"new line\". But therein lies the question.
>What\'s a \"new line\"?
>
>I realise there are no promises about speed and I doubt it will
>ourperform 3G even with a perfect circuit over that distance (suspect
>lines are poor), but if it could manage 3Mbps it would be a useful
>backup.
>
>Just to confirm: we have no current provider and the line hasn\'t been
>used for over three years.
>
>One final question: if the broadband and phone are ordered as one, and
>you can\'t install the broadband because there\'s a filthy great DACS
>box on the pole which our line might go through - can you confirm
>everything is refunded and the entire contract is voided - and I\'m not
>going to be stuck with a phone line I have no need of for a year (we
>don\'t even possess a landline handset any more, we use mobiles and
>VOIP)
>
>Thanks.

======== Reply Below ========

Dear Mark,

Thank you for your communication.

If the line in the property is usable on our network, we should be able to reactivate the line without further charges. If this is not possible, then the £49.99 charge would apply and an engineer would visit to install you a new line.

We would do our best to ensure that the line could support broadband before we install a new service to ensure that this situation will not occur. If there is a DACS in place, we would look at removing this so the service can be installed.

I hope this helps. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us further.

Regards

--

That's one of the cheaper ISPs however two of the most expensive ones didn't do any better with their responses either.

I guess I could just remove all the internal kit back to the dropwire since we're not service subscribers and it's on our property and then a new NTE would "have to" be fitted on signup ("I do not have a BT Socket"), but what I think would probably happen is the line would be regarded as activated remotely even though there are only two unconnected bare wires at the other end (that's what happened initially, as we have two drop wires and the second one was cut through internally by a previous occupant, and that's the line they connected, it took weeks to sort out)

Does anyone know the answer? This is so daft, as there's a line BT could be making some money from that has been lying unused for over three years now thanks to this seemingly intractable problem.
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burakkucat

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2011, 04:29:52 PM »

Hello Mark and welcome to the forum,

Could you take a series of photographs and then make them publicly accessible, please? For the advancement of knowledge and learning, plus the interest of persons -- oops inquisitive cats -- such as myself, that would be the best starting point. :)

To give you a very brief answer as to what I would do in that situation, I would remove everything internal back to the terminal block where the drop-wire is terminated. Then when requesting the service supply, indicate that a line is present to the premise but there is not any socket connected to the line and that an NTE5A would be required to be fitted to it.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 04:31:53 PM by burakkucat »
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roseway

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2011, 04:47:22 PM »

[burakkukat posted while I was writing this, but I'll leave it unchanged)

Concerning the DACS question, I guess that the answer will depend on the ISP, and only they can say definitely whether all cash paid will be refunded in the unlikely event that there's a DACS which can't be removed. You haven't said what ISPs you contacted, but I would expect Zen (as one example) to understand the question and give you a straight answer.

Concerning the wiring and the absence of an NTE5, I would remove all the star wiring, leaving one master socket connected at the point where the drop wire terminates. Then, as part of the commissioning of what is effectively a new line, BT will fit an NTE5 in place of the old master socket.

That's my understanding, but we do have a couple of OR engineers who hopefully will chip in.
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DTMark

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2011, 05:47:29 PM »

Hi, thanks - that was quick :) Nice cat by the way, we have two ourselves including a lovely black female one.

Try this:

http://www.dtmark.info/_resources/files/phone_wiring.jpg

The inside of the GPO box was full of dust and a couple of insects, sorry about the quality, but it gives some idea of why perhaps you can't sync on that master:

http://www.dtmark.info/_resources/files/gpo_box.jpg

Both sockets have 3 wires connected. The upper right box in the first photo is a splitter - it takes the signal and splits it in half to go to the two sockets, which both look exactly like the one in the bottom right shot.

Re: the DACS, the fact it's there suggests not many spare pairs; our original line was a straight through (evidently since it could sustain an ADSL signal) but neighbour has since had ADSL put on his line, and I recall an Openreach van arriving at the pole, looking up at it, then driving off again around that time. Also, the line - the last time I tried - did have a dial tone, but the circuit number had changed.

The other drop wire terminates in an identical splitter box in another room from which two wires protrude by about an inch and that's where someone severed them. Annoyingly, that line comes into my office room, the other one will only manage a sync on the downstairs master socket so you have to use wireless through the house.
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DTMark

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2011, 06:00:05 PM »

[burakkukat posted while I was writing this, but I'll leave it unchanged)

You haven't said what ISPs you contacted, but I would expect Zen (as one example) to understand the question and give you a straight answer.

Zen were actually the ADSL supplier when we had it. I called them back and they were able to retrieve some of the account/line information even though it was years ago (well done Zen). Their conclusion was that it [the useless speed] is most likely to be down to poor quality lines but I sense an entirely understandable "We can't say anything categorical" approach. After all they're not stood in the house looking at the wiring boxes.

One of the others said "We'd need to get Openreach to do a survey" and suggested that 2Mbps was "not too shabby" (that call didn't last long)

Another said "It won't make a blind bit of difference, you'll still only get 2.5Mbps" (untrue on all counts)

I gave up then.




« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 06:03:38 PM by DTMark »
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HPsauce

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2011, 10:39:30 PM »

I would remove all the star wiring, leaving one master socket connected at the point where the drop wire terminates.
You're not supposed to of course, but as the line isn't "in use" I'd be significantly more brutal than that.

That black sausage is just a cable connector, joining the drop wire to the cable into your house.
It's not clear from the photo, but is there just one cable in (the drop wire) and one out?

Unless the cable out is single a good-quality twisted-pair type I'd "dematerialise" it all as well, probably along with the connector and just tie back the dropwire to ensure it is firmly fixed on the spiral retainer.  8)
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burakkucat

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2011, 12:05:59 AM »

Mark,

I can now see what you have. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you have one drop-wire from the pole to the external in-line "black sausage" and then two external grade cables from that to two separate internal junction boxes at different locations within the house.

Looking at the second image, I can see that the 1960s junction box has been rewired to 1980s telephony standards and it just connects through the B, A & "bell" wires.

Quote
The other drop wire terminates in an identical splitter box in another room from which two wires protrude by about an inch and that's where someone severed them. Annoyingly, that line comes into my office room, the other one will only manage a sync on the downstairs master socket so you have to use wireless through the house.

That is interesting to know. For what I shall call the original line, I would be tempted to open up that box, remove the two severed wire ends and then put the cover back on -- leaving it all neat and tidy.

Next, for what I shall call the second line, I would strip out all of the wiring, etc, including that 1960s (700-series) junction box back to the junction box where the internal feed is terminated.

Now you have two separate lines from the pole, the original terminated in your office (which is what you would like to use) and the second terminated elsewhere in the house (which you do not wish to use).

At this point, choose an ISP that has a good reputation and can provide the type of broadband service that you would like. Contact them and tell them that you have two physical lines present and neither is in use nor has a master socket connected. You could add that one line terminates in your office at a junction box and it is to there that you would like to have the service made available. The reputable ISP will then request an OR engineering visit to fit an NTE5A in your office, go "up the pole" and, possibly, "down some hole". Again, the reputable ISP will understand that you require a line capable of carrying a broadband signal and not just POTS grade.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 12:08:14 AM by burakkucat »
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DTMark

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2011, 01:34:41 AM »

I can now see what you have. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you have one drop-wire from the pole to the external in-line "black sausage" and then two external grade cables from that to two separate internal junction boxes at different locations within the house.

I'll have to pop my head out of the window when it's light and have a further look, as there seem to be more wires on the outside of the building (the top left photo) than I see internally: however -

Single wire from drop wire into the black box thing.

Regardless of how many wires (I really mean cables) exit it, only one comes indoors (the black one, top right photo) which is then split inside that junction box (it has left and right terminals as it were). The white wire (again top right photo - the "left set") carries half the signal downstairs - so it goes back outside again - and the other half of the signal (the "right set") goes to that GPO box.

The two sockets are definitely the same line ("pair") despite the ADSL only ever working on the downstairs one.

However none of this would seem to change the advice I'm getting here - many thanks for your replies.

My only remaining concern re: the "office" line (the one I'd prefer) is the DACS box; the pole serves six properties including ours at the end of a dead-end lane in a rural area and the addition of our second drop wire (the one which terminates in nothing at the moment) at some stage and the DACS box might well have gone together. I do wonder why we have two dropwires, maybe the "office" one was for some kind of burglar alarm or monitoring system as given the number of wires here, there would have been three "lines" two of which come out of the severed box (the "cut" ones)

Or maybe someone has been through all this before and ordered a second then third line as the first two were pants. I do know the last residents didn't pay their BT bills (I opened one thinking it was our first one by mistake), though so maybe they weren't entirely happy and decided to slice through the cables on their way out. We'll never know :)

I'm guessing that if you order two services (telephone and broadband) as one then the contract is for both, so if only the former can be fulfilled then the customer can elect whether to let the supplier off providing the latter and modify the contract, or refuse that and the supplier has to void/refund the whole thing because they are the ones electing not to fulfil the contract, I can check on that though.

Thanks very much :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Old Post Office (Now BT) wiring question - Experts please!!!
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2011, 06:13:12 PM »

b*cat rests his chin on a paw and considers the latest information. :-\

However many drop wires (cables) that come from the pole to your house (each would have the ability to provide more that one line pair) you would like a working pair (POTS & broadband) to your office. Assuming the DACS box is not a blocker for your requirement, an OR Engineer would just swap around the pairs contained within you 2+ drop wires (cables) to provide that requirement to the junction box in your office and then use a short length of internal CW1308 specification cable to connect from that junction box to the newly provided NTE5A.

Essentially you require your potential SP to accept that any contract between their pair of you has a clause that the provision of a viable broadband service is "the essence of that contract" (to use a legal phrase). Such a contract will, obviously, require an initial survey by the infrastructure provider, OpenReach.
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