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[jeffbb]

Hi
@razpaq
quote In effect, (and as a general rule of thumb), if you dont have a NTE5 Master Socket, then you dont have ANY demarcation point !!!!Therefore, Openreach will fault the circuit, install a new NTE5 and if any of the extention wires/sockets are proving to be faulty, they will leave them disconnected all free-of-charge. Once you have the NTE5, you then have a demarcation point for any future faults that may occur. 

Is this the case even for Line Jack sockets ?. I still have one of these ,been in situ for about 40 years .

Regards Jeff

[razpag]

Hi Jeff

If we're both assuming "Line Jack Sockets" are one and the same thing, then absolutely yes.

As I've mooted previously, there HAS to be a demarcation between 'our' wiring and 'your' wiring.
This *demarcation point* will be the first socket that is connected to the BT Openreach wiring that enters the premises. If it isn't an NTE5-type socket, (whereby there is a detachable front plate that all extention wiring should be connected to), then it will be what I would call a 'Line Jack Socket'.

If you have this old-type set up, you are quite within your rights to ask your SP to make an appointment for us to attend F.O.C. to bring the installation up to par. A couple of reasons are, 1) That you need to isolate some or all of your extention wiring to gain a faster DSL speed, or 2) You have purchased a Service Specific Front Plate (ADSL Nation, etc) and without an NTE5, it is impossible to legally fit it.

I hope we're talking about the same thing here Jeff, and I don't mean to sound like I'm teaching my granny to suck eggs, just thought I'd try and make it clear for the folk out there who are unsure.

*The latest New Build properties actually have the demarcation point OUTSIDE the premises, bringing us in line with the Gas,Lekky and Water industries.*

[waltergmw]

@ Razpag re your * note,

Unless there have been modifications, I believe that the external units do not include a circuit isolation facility so the fastidious are obliged to buy their own internal sub-master NTE5 replacement together with an integral filter faceplate.

Kind regards,
Walter

[razpag]

Walter

Having personally only worked on these outside unite twice, I'm no real expert on them. What I can say, is that there is and isolating 'fuse' (more like a module) that cab be pulled out, which obviously isolates the UG feed from the ongoing internal cable. But this only acts really as a test point for us, as there is no 'Test jack' as such for the EU to plug a phone in. So in effect, yes you are right.

From the info I've read, as this is a relatively newish product (because of this, faults are still negligible) and we don't work on them often, I believe the building contractor is responsible for all wiring beyond this outside isolating unit. In essence, we prove the line is ok to the isolating unit, then ask the EU to contact his builder to carry on with the faulting of the circuit.

[waltergmw]

@ Razpag,

That's where some new house buyers could get into a serious pickle !
I will defend you here, by saying that sadly not every builder's electrician is familiar as perhaps they might be with communications wiring arrangements.

Kind regards,
Walter

[razpag]

  Touche

You are of course quite right. We often find in the newer houses, that the sparky has star-wired from the point where the master socket is to be sited, or even worse, they will fit a junc. box under the sheet boarding (Its never floorboards anymore !!!) and 'star' out from this inaccessible point. To compound matters, they more often than not will use alarm cable for the telephony circuit, as they generally have the contract to install the alarm as well.

As we know, stranded, non-twisted cable is far from ideal for high-grade circuits. It's going to be frustrating attending DSL faults on these latest new-builds knowing that a couple of hours of work will improve their service, but as 'they' say ............ "Them's the rules".

[jeffbb]

Hi
@razpag

quote If we're both assuming "Line Jack Sockets" are one and the same thing, then absolutely yes.

No I don't think we are talking about same thing 

Please see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm I have a LJU type .I understood that these were the demarcation point ?.

Regards Jeff

[razpag]

Hi
@razpag

quote If we're both assuming "Line Jack Sockets" are one and the same thing, then absolutely yes.

No I don't think we are talking about same thing 

Please see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm I have a LJU type .I understood that these were the demarcation point ?.

Regards Jeff

I think we ARE talking about the same thing Jeff ??

The LJU's have no demarcation point where you (as an EU) can 'legally' seperate the BT/OR owned wiring (we call it monopoly wiring) and your extention wiring. That's why if there's a service-affecting fault on a circuit that has a LJU as its master socket, we will localise and isolate the offending extention cable causing the fault, and fit the standard NTE5 in place of the LJU, all F.O.C.

If the same situation occured on a circuit with an NTE5 as its master socket, then the SP would be charged by us for attending site, unscrewing the front plate and saying "Your line works OK in the test socket ........... goodbye". This is why the frontplate/test socket is there, as a means for the EU to determine whether the fault lies in their own domain, or on 'our' network.

PS ...... i'm pretty sure the SP will pass the charges onto the End User in cases like these.

[jeffbb]

Hi
quote : That's why if there's a service-affecting fault on a circuit that has a LJU as its master socket, we will localise and isolate the offending extention cable causing the fault, and fit the standard NTE5 in place of the LJU, all F.O.C.

This is NOT generally known . ISPs do not give that information . The impression is that if a fault is caused by the user internal wiring then there will be a charge regardless of the fact that there is NO NTE5 is fitted .

Just to clear If I get some connection problem (I haven't got an NTE5) then I would NOT be charged even if something wrong with my internal extensions.The LJU would be replaced with an NTE5.

Regards Jeff

[razpag]

If the fault is due to 'fair wear and tear', yes.

If you've just had a new carpet fitted and one of the extention wires is caught on the gripper rods, or you've accidentally knocked a vase of water over a socket, (instances along those lines), then we will charge the SP. It's up to them whether they forward the charges onto the EU's.

[bbnovice]

Hi,

I’m new to this forum. Pardon me for bumping this thread but I have a similar question to the OP and what I have been told by my ISP and BT flatly contradicts some of the previous posts. So as a non-expert I’m confused.

1. I have a 60 year old property with wiring to match and am having problems with my broadband. The BT wire enters the house and is connected to a connection block (“distribution point”). Four extensions are star wired from that block to various parts of the house, although only 3 are in use normally.
2. An ex BT engineer has examined the house wiring. In his opinion the termination block is non BT and looks suspiciously like an alarm connection block. The extensions are terminated by a variety of different Line Jacks, only 1 of which is a genuine BT one. He cannot identify a master socket. The wiring is therefore obviously not in spec and needs rationalizing.
3. My ISP (Virgin) has told me that the broadband problem could be with my extension wiring. They have warned me that if that is the case the rectification cost will definitely be chargeable. They are adamant that BT would charge.
4. So over to BT Customer Service. They inform me that the cost of rationalizing the line and installing a proper NTE5 will be £430 plus VAT. This is made up of £130 for installing the NTE5 plus £75 per extension for connecting to it. The £30 fee quoted by some for “legalizing” only available if other chargeable work is being done at the same time.              
5. I then have 2 subsequent conversations with the people who deal with faults at BT (Indian call centre?).  This includes a discussion with a supervisor. To cut a long story short their position is that technically that in the absence of an NTE (either paid for by me or if BT elect to install one at a later date) there is no clear demarcation point and I should treat the BT side of the distribution point as the demarcation line. I am therefore free to disconnect the extensions from the subscriber side of the distribution point as long as I don’t touch the master. Quite how that would be identified is not clear. However they said that my call would be noted and that there would not be any subsequent come back from BT if I did that.
 
I have carefully logged all these conversations as I’m not entirely sure I trust what I have been told, but at least I asked. I will now get a competent company to install my own NTE type socket on the subscriber side of the DP and wire the extensions from that.

I wish BT had a clear and transparent policy over older (star) wiring. There seems to be a lot of conflicting messages.

Any thoughts?  

PS Virgin provide the BB. Phone is with BT

[HPsauce]

The first thought is that it will depend what you want to achieve at the end, also how much wiring (legally, post-correction) you're happy to do yourself.

[bbnovice]

Hi:

I'm not technically competent so won't do any wiring myself.

My understanding of what needs to be done is to have the facility to be able isolate the extension wiring in the event of problems, and have a test socket for trouble shooting purposes.

 

[HPsauce]

How many of the (currently 4?) sockets do you really need working (must have) short-term (days) and in the long run?
If there was a socket at/near the location of the junction box does that requirement reduce?

Where is the junction box by the way?

[bbnovice]

Hi:

1. The junction box is just inside the window of the study screwed to the wall. The BT line comes in between the wall and window frame to connect to the box.
2. Short term I can live with 1 extension (in the study) which is also used by the bb connection.  Normally I have two others which are used solely for telephony - one in the kitchen, the other in the bedroom. The fourth could be considered redundant.
3. The extension on the study is closest to the connection box. About 5 feet apart.