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Author Topic: BT Getting Value for money  (Read 6170 times)

mywifeshusband

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BT Getting Value for money
« on: July 23, 2007, 09:59:30 PM »

New BT Home Hub on 1/6/07 on the strength of BT Wholesale checker and Kitz website, BT promissory marketing emails etc, I'd hoped for an upgrade in speed from 1Mbps obtained via BT Voyager 205, to at least 1.5Mpps.
Distance from Aldershot Exchange, 3.3km as crow flies and 5Km as bus route winds.  Cable Length, don't know.
Up until last week I was fighting BT for a better speed than 135kbs. This week it is up to almost the 500kbps 'configured speed', but we are not yet flooded and much rain seems slow it right down.
Lets hope though that 135 is a thing of the past and I can now start pressing BT to give me a line which will produce the "up to 2Mbps" they 'promised'. Bet they say they didn't!
Bandwidth up/down 448/ 700ish to 1750 or so but rarely over 1000
Line Attenuation Up/Down 31/63.5 and steady. BT Line Engineer measured 59 down with his Voyager105. Changed Hub, filters etc, - made no difference.
SN Margin all over the place from below 5 to over 16 but usually below 6 or 7.
Uptime is rarely more than an hour or two at best. No! Hub is not turned off at night!
BT Broadband help seem to think I should have a NTE5 Master connector but have not organnised it. Instead I have something put in by the GPO 20 years or more ago that the phone (sorry microfilter) and Home Hub plugs into. Do I really need a NTE5? If so, aught I have to pay or should I press BT for a free installation?
BT say that there is not a fault on the line but with these stats and my direct distance from the Exchange I rather think the cable / line must either go via Glasgow or that it is over ready for unscrambling / replacement and is providing a degraded and substandard connection.  Is this a valid argument?
What are my reasonable expectations, and how can I get BT to deliver? I can't seem to shift the help desk out of first gear, and am ready to tackle BT Senior Management. Please Help or advise!
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kitz

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2007, 10:27:54 PM »

Hi and welcome to the forum - good name :D

>> Line Attenuation Up/Down 31/63.5

hmm  that shows youre on a very long line - even @ 59dB :/
At a very rough estimate your line length would perhaps be in the region of 5km

A few points

>> BT Broadband help seem to think I should have a NTE5 Master connector but have not organnised it.

BTw were supposed to be offering long lines that are troublesome installation of an NTE5 adsl filtered face-plate.  Yes it is probably one of the best things that you can do to help improve your line.  Its definitely worth chasing this up with BT Broadband.

>> Up until last week I was fighting BT for a better speed than 135kbs. This week it is up to almost the 500kbps 'configured speed'

In view of the fact that you previously would have appeared to have a fairly stable 1Mb connection it would appear that your line is one of those not best suited to max.  Theres several of us on here that wouldnt advise such a long line on MAX because of the way it works and you can often end up with slower speeds than you were previously getting, you appear to be one of the unfortunates.

If I were you I would go on the route of pressing your ISP for an engineers visit for a free installation of a filtered socket, stating that you previously had a perfectly fine 1Mb connection which doesnt work right since your move to maxdsl. 
When was the last engineers visit?  WAs it before or after you were maxed?

The problem wont so much be the routing from the exchange to your ISP since thats done over fibre.. its the line from the exchange to your home (over copper) where the signal is loosing strength.  The longer the copper wire then the more the signal degrades. 

Just checking that your router is plugged in at the master socket?  Sorry it wasnt 100% clear from your post.  Its also worth trying another micro-filter if you have one spare - just to rule out that the other one isnt faulty.

Finally I notice you are using a HomeHub - unfortunately not one of the best routers for long lines.
Do you by any change still have a speedtouch 330? 
It may be worth plugging that in and comparing your line stats between the two.  Yeah I know routers are "supposed" to be better on max - but Ive seen far too many speedtouch modems perform better on long lines than the home hubs does. 
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mywifeshusband

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2007, 11:11:47 PM »

Hello  & Thanks for prompt response.
Your query:-
When was the last engineers visit?  Was it before or after you were maxed?
Reply:- Afterwards. In fact 2 abortive visits. Subsequent complaints about continuing 135 kbps did nevertheless result in some line attention at the Exchange end which did put the IP up to 500 from 135.
Your query:- Do you by any change still have a speedtouch 330?
Reply:- I still have a BT Voyager 205 if that is the same thing. Will it still work though or has the Home Hub software overwritten that of the Voyager? I'm using Windows XP sp2.
Your Query:- Just checking that your router is plugged in at the master socket?
Reply:- Yes but it is an old GPO type plug. Then Voyager 1055 wireless 'dongle' to PC. Voyager 205 was via old extension cable and Ethernet. Reverting to Voyager 205 would also mean abandoning wireless connection and using Ethernet and router on the end of an extension lead.
Have changed the filters several times. Even purchased an adsl Nation XTF-68/85 and wired it up with a 3 inch extension lead to plug into the GPO main plug.  This as a best alternative to a proper NTE5. Did not make much difference though.
I would not say that my old ADSL connection was stable in wet thundery weather, but neither is the Hub, and the Hub takes 3 days rather than 30 minutes to recover!!!
When I put my phone number into yours and the BT ADSL max Wholesale availability checker I get a 'Up to 2Mbps' feedback. Presumably BT at least should know the length of their line and allow for this when making these predictions?
Any further thoughts would be appreciated? Or am I flogging a dead horse with BT?
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kitz

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2007, 12:08:46 AM »

A recent low sync could have easily knocked your IPprofile back down to the 135 speeds :/

I cant understand why the engineer didnt fit an NTE5 socket when he was last there, so cant comment on that :(

No the ST330 and voyager 205 arent the same - BT at one point mostly supplied ST330s, but they also provided the Voyager 205. 

Unless you physically removed it then the Voyager software should still be there, although you shouldnt need software to connect to the Voyager if you connect via ethernet.

You should be able to access the Voyager 205 via your browser on http://192.168.1.1

Line stats are under Troubleshooting >
Advanced Diagnostics >
DSL Param


However I appreciate what youre saying about the loss of wireless and once again having to go back to an extension (which could possibly introduce more noise on the line).

Ideally you should use the test socket to check your line - but since you dont have an NTE5 then this isnt an option.



>> Hub takes 3 days rather than 30 minutes to recover!!!

If you are refering to throughput speeds then that is more down to the way max works and something called the bRAS or IP profile. (More info on the bRAS profile.)

Its primarily because of the IP profile that we are often hesitant about recommending max on long lines..  since it is very likely that this is what will be limiting your throughput speeds for days at a time.  One bad sync and youre going to see slow speeds for several days.

I hate to sound pesimistic but I have a horrible suspicion that because you say your SNR is all over the place and up to 16dB.. that the DLM has increased your target SNR to 15dB to try and maintain stability.   The nasty side effect of this is that your router is going to sync at much lower speeds than if it was set at the default.

"Traditional" adsl doesnt have this configurable Target SNR thats done by the DLM either, and its static.  I wouldnt be too surprised if the BT Engineer on his last visit got your target SNR reset, but after a few days the DLM took over again (as it is designed to do - and should do), which has knocked you back again.  Unless theres a specific fault on the line this is likely to continue to keep happening.

Based on the information you have given ie 62db line with an average SNR Margin of 6dB, then unless youre able to do something to increase the SNR Margin at your end* then it could just be that your line is physically incapable of acheiving the higher speeds of max. :/

The BT checker is a guide from the database and just an estimate.   Max works by utilising every spare bit of SNR to give you the highest possible speeds.  However it falls down on very long lines due to the IP profiling.. and also if you target SNR is set by the DLM at anything much above 9dB then theres a strong chance that your speeds are going to be slower on MAX than they were on traditional adsl.  The database doesnt know your individual line stats - those can only be obtained when you plug in your router as thats down to how your modem/router communicates with the exchange.

IMHO its worth trying the Voyager to see if it can eke a bit more out of the line than the HomeHub.
However as it stands the line stats youve provided from the HH show a grim picture.

None of us here like admitting defeat easily nor do we "fob off" - hence the long posts...  but I think I know what my own ISP would be recommending if I were this situation - if I hadnt already requested it myself.

I hope that one of the other guys will comment too - just to make sure I havent missed something obvious.

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*Normally we would try take you through all sorts of testing to see if you could increase your SNR Margin.. but the fact that youre already plugged in at the master socket and are using a adsl nation filter etc, it would appear to me that you have done all you can already.
The only thing I can think of is attempting to remove the ring wire and making sure that theres nothing nearby to your router which is adding additional electrical noise.
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mywifeshusband

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2007, 09:36:45 AM »

Hello Kits
Thanks anyway! I will continue to press BT for both answers and an improved connection, but I won't hold my breath.
What I find particularly galling is:-
a/  Their inability to conduct and develop a constructive conversation with me as you have done about the problem and ...
b/ The fact that in my pre max 1Mbps days they, in the full knowledge of the level of service I was already receiving from them, were filling my 'spam' folder with personally directed e'mails, (and snail mail letterbox) offering and improved service up to 2Mbps if I would sign up for a ADSL Max service. (This endorsed by the BT wholesale availability website for my phone number and post code, based on their own privileged technical information to which I have no access). Yet when I sign up, they provide a connection which is only half as fast as my old service on good days and only a little better than 10% of the old service speed, on bad days. I know that this is not a legal forum but to my mind this comes precious close to miss-selling. I wonder what some of the other informed 'watchers' think?
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roseway

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2007, 10:35:20 AM »

The only thing I would add is to echo the advice that a filtered faceplate on the master socket would be the best technical arrangement. If you're using an extension then you've got a length of unshielded, untwisted cable to the extension, and this can pick up interference. A filtered faceplate would eliminate all such problems and give you the best chance of a good connection. If a wireless connection is necessary for domestic geographical reasons, then you could probably get some improvement by buying a different router; if finances are tight, then http://www.dsldepot.co.uk/product_details.asp?idProduct=638 might be a cheap and good option. I'm using one of these myself, and the results are as good as any router I've used (and I've used several). But every situation is different and there aren't any guarantees.
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kitz

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2007, 11:02:51 AM »

It's a fact that many people were looking forward to the arrival of maxdsl.  In theory it should have been good for longer lines and be able to eke the best out of your own particular line.

However when combined with the restrictions placed with the bRAS profile and if the DLM decides that your line needs a high Target SNR then the speeds can actually be lower than on traditional adsl.

With traditional adsl your line either works at a certain speed or it doesn't. 
With MAX then the DLM constantly monitors your connection each time you connect and gives you the best speed it can based on your SNR Margin. 

Normally you need 6dB of SNR Margin to allow for day to day fluctuations, but on longer lines these often need a bit more so the DLM increases whats called your Target SNR in an attempt to stabilise the line.  The knock-on effect of this is that it lowers your sync speed.

>> BT wholesale availability website for my phone number and post code, based on their own privileged technical information

As mentioned this database really is only a guess and is based on your location.  The database doesnt actually hold information about your line stats.  Attenuation is related to line length - so they can have a guess at what your attenuation may be based on where you live.

However Maxdsl doesnt much care what your attenuation is - it works purely off your Signal to Noise Ratio.  BT have no way of knowing what your SNR is going to be as the signal strength is actually recorded by your router and until you connect on max then no-one knows what it will be, nor how it will perform.   Even if your ISP did a WOOSH test, then the figure they get is the figure that your router/modem reports back to them.

Several years ago, a BTw engineer used to have to visit your house for all new adsl installations and connect up an adsl modem to check what your line stats would be before they connected up the adsl properly.  In about 2003 they relaxed this so just longer lines were tested by an engineer first.  These days BTw have a "suck it and see" approach and will just connect all lines and only investigate if problems occur.

SNR plays a really big part with MAX, but SNR Margin is very variable and can (and does) fluctuate daily.

Those of us that have seen the advent of max and were among the first to get it when it came out in Apr 2006 have seen that it sometimes isnt all its cracked up to be.. and its caused problems for many.
My own ISP and several others doesnt recommend MAX for long lines.  If a line has been maxed that doesnt work out they will quite happily put a user back on the traditional adsl product.

BTw are now aware that the bRAS profiling aspect of MAX can cause a problem and at the end of this month they are going to be bringing in some new profiles which may help some users (750,350), but if youre going as low as 135 then its not going to help you personally that much. :/

If I were you I'd be pressing my ISP for another BTw engineer visit.  Ask them to recheck the line and if the installation of a NTE5 adsl faceplate would help.  When the engineer is there then ask him about his recommendation for moving back to a fixed rate adsl service saying that you previously had a stablish 1Mb connection.

Before you do this though - just check the stats with another router (ie not the HH) to see if this does help. 
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mywifeshusband

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2007, 04:28:08 PM »

OK I've been back on the old Voyager 205 router for over an hour and the 192.168.1.1 link to its stats gives me a down speed of 1248 and an up speed of 448. A speed test also gives me a speed of only a unit or two below the 500 configured ADSL Max speed. I can't get of the 192.168.1.1 home page though. The Troubleshooting button takes me nowhere and the Advanced Button only brings down a drop down box which also leads nowhere. Do you have a back door key please?
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mywifeshusband

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2007, 09:07:19 AM »

OK To wind this up. I'm now back up to a sync of 1000 using the voyager 205. Whilst the links to 192.168.1.1 via my browser did not work for me Start Run telnet://192.168.1.1 did and last night Local Line att was 56.5  and remote 31.5 This morning though Line Att was up to 59.5. SNR was 9 so it looks as if I'm holding sync at 1000 by the skin of my teeth. Seems that both the HH supplied to me by BT were equally noisy or somehow  they are picking up noise from where I have them located.
Perhaps I'll try the  SpeedTouch 576v5 as recommended here in an attempt to get even better stats with a wireless connection direct from the Master Socket rather than this extension lead.
Thanks for your help.
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kitz

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2007, 11:13:57 AM »

>>  Local Line att was 56.5  and remote 31.5 This morning though Line Att was up to 59.5.

hmm whilst SNR Margin varies, the line attenuation should remain fairly constant.

Have you tried a quiet line test to see if you can hear any noise on the line?
Dial 17070 and select option 2.
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mywifeshusband

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2007, 03:13:15 PM »

Thanks for your further thoughts.
Quiet test seems quiet to my old ears but Line att has now crept up another half point to 60 but still for the time being finding sync at 1000. Wondered if the difference in Line att dB could be connected with whether the router  transformer was connected to filtered or non filtered 240V power supply. Seems not though. The 56.5 recorded last night was through a filtered power supply which is turned off at night; so I plugged the router transformer straight into the mains overnight and recorded 59.5 and then 60 this morning, but replugging into the filtered supply just now has made no difference. Pity Thought I'd cracked it!
Second idea is that if a 15 ft 'non twisted' extension cable is likely to make a significant difference to the noise level, then what about the 45 Meter run of overhead flat twin  cable that connects the line from the nearest BT wooden pole to the eves of my house? OK the flat twin has a few twists in it but it ain't a twisted cable!
Then yesterday was fine and today it is again wet and windy. The worst connection conditions do seem to correlate closely with wet weather. I can't get BT to see it this way though and I have to say the quiet test does seem to be 'quiet', even if the test itself is rather subjective in character.
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kitz

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 02:52:40 AM »

It is possible that the variation in sync could be caused by weather conditions.  If water gets on the line this can cause all sorts of problems.
Theres an awful lot of people tat report their stats go crazy during wind and rain.

Theres numerous places where this can occur, trees rubbing against overhead cables is a common one.

If the problems are worse during wind and rain, then you should advise this info to your ISP so BT can investigate and eliminate.
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mywifeshusband

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2007, 09:36:48 AM »

Postscript
The Sun shines. My old Voyager is rock solid at 1000 Kbps on ADSL Max as it was before I was 'Maxed' on 1/6/70.
SNR hovers between 8&9 dB but the peculiar thing is that having initiated at 56.5 dB when I first reconnected it, the Line Attenuation rose initially up to 60 dB but since it has been steadily dropping day by day. Today it is down to 52.5 dB and given that dB is logarithmic this is a huge difference from the 63.5 dB regularly delivered by both the Home Hubs that I tried.
Could it be that given I'm only just over 3 Km as crow flies from the Exchange someone is doing things in cable pits and up poles; I wonder?
BT have agreed to provide me with a Voyager 2110 in lieu of a third HH and I await delivery. If the results are of interest I'll post again. If not thanks for your help.
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roseway

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Re: BT Getting Value for money
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2007, 10:05:37 AM »

Thanks for reporting back, and I'm glad the sun is shining. :)

In normal circumstances the attenuation shouldn't change much, although different routers can report slightly different values (by 1 dB or so). The difference you're seeing suggests that either the line has a fault or (as you say) BT are doing some repair work. If the attenuation stays at that lower level you may well be able to get a faster connection.
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