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Author Topic: Filters with ADSL2+  (Read 10811 times)

Adder

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Filters with ADSL2+
« on: February 25, 2010, 08:11:31 PM »

Hi,

I've been using an Excelsus Z-350UK filter for a while now on my ADSL Max 8Mb service with Plusnet and the connection has been very stable with a sync of 7616Kbps. I'm waiting for my migration to Be Unlimited to complete and I was wondering if the Excelsus filter would be ok on an ADSL2 service or whether I should use the ones that Be supply with the Thomson router.

Also, I had a spike in the past which took out one of the LAN ports on my Draytek and when I was in a shop last weekend, they had an offer on a Commtel filter which has built-surge protection. It's a '41603018' which I believe is also known as an 'ADSL700' filter - It plugs directly into the phone socket and provides 1 modem port and two phone ports, it was 50% off, (£10 instead of £20), so I bought one :-[. I'd like to use something that'll protect the new router, but not at the cost of reducing speed. Does anyone know whether this filter is suitable for ADSL2 and whether having the surge protection built in affects sync?

Thanks!
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HPsauce

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 11:56:19 PM »

I was wondering if the Excelsus filter would be ok on an ADSL2 service
work fine for me - 20mbps on Be.  ;)
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Adder

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2010, 12:27:35 AM »

I keep telling you HPsauce, you really shouldn't feed your LAN cable through the exchange window, you may live next door but that's no excuse!!

Any ideas whether a surge protected filter affects the sync speed?
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2010, 12:43:50 AM »

Any ideas whether a surge protected filter affects the sync speed?

As I see the world, the purpose of the filter is to prevent DSL tones from disrupting telephone conversations. 

They also prevent the telephone from absorbing too much of the higher frequency DSL signals. 

Surge protectors may absorb the occasional over-voltage that appears on the mains, but any manufacturer who offers a sensible warranty will include surge-protection in their appliances.   Surge protectors protect against over-voltage and  (my opinion again) they won't protect against lightning strikes, and it's these (opinion, again!) that cause most damage.

My guess would be  that surge protected filters would, at best, have no effect at all (and wouldn't offer much surge protection either) or, at worst, would degrade the DSL signal a little bit (and wouldn't offer much surge protection either).

But that's only my opinion.  Others may disagree, and I won't accept any responsibility if your system goes up in flames as a result of my opinion  :)
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HPsauce

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2010, 08:52:27 AM »

you really shouldn't feed your LAN cable through the exchange window
It's nearly a mile away!
(attenuation 21dB = 1.5km, ADSL2+)

As for surge protection, personally I have no experience of doing this on a phone line - isn't that what one of the master socket components is for? But I have heard "rumours" of such devices hindering broadband.
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Adder

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 09:48:31 AM »

Thanks for your help, I think I'd agree with what you both said about affecting the sync speed, so I'll stick to using my existing filter - after all, losing only one LAN port after all of these years can't be bad....hmmmm, maybe I shouldn't have said that  :D

It's nearly a mile away!
(attenuation 21dB = 1.5km, ADSL2+)

Now I really can't wait until it goes live, my figures aren't that different to yours - attenuation 22dB = 1.6km, (mind you I think the attenuation changes on ADSL2+), but here's hoping  ;)

Any increase in speed is a bonus, I'm just looking forward to being able to download in the evening without being throttled down from 7.6Mbps to between 1-2Mbps by Plusnet or having to stay up until after midnight to download anything.
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hake

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 07:13:04 PM »

How does it drain the surge to earth?  Does it connect to mains earth?
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furrymoggy

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2010, 01:50:04 PM »

The subject of "surge protection" is more complex than it appears on the surface and in fact lightning itself is not fully understood even by the scientific community!

The master socket or Linebox on your telephone line is not there to protect against lightning and has a very basic surge protector which simply limits high voltages across the line. It cannot prevent high potentials with respect to earth from going through your installation, which is what happens in the event of lightning. For this sort of protection, a properly earthed system is required, which, depending on the characteristics of the components used, may or may not have an impact on the speed/stability of the ADSL signal.

Whatever form of protection is used, there is still no guarantee that lightning will not affect your kit. A direct hit will reduce your treasured modem/router/phones to charcoal - literally - regardless of any form of protection. I have twice seen first hand complete properties destroyed by lightning.

A strike a mile or more away can also induce enough potential to rip through protection and destroy or damage the electronics of your router etc.

On the other hand, having the protection does mitigate or prevent damage caused by lesser or more distant strikes, and despite my previous ramblings of death and destruction, I do feel it's worth having if you can find a device that will both work well and have negligible effect on the broadband. ... but how are you going to know how well it works before you buy it??!!  ???

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geep

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2010, 08:47:23 PM »

Hi,
I'm on ADSL2+ "up to 24 Mbps" with an Excelsus Z-420UKP2J.
I installed a no-brand "ADSL Surge Protector". £2.29 on ebay last year.
It's black, and has no CE marking or model number - probably illegal! - just a label "ADSL Surge Protector"
At the time I checked with/without surge protector: speed, SNR margin and attenuation. No difference.
I synch at about 7Mbps - current stats being:
Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 21.0 / 39.5    Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,019 / 6,787
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 9.5           Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 21.0
If my line were shorter and I could use those higher frequencies I guess it's possible that the surge protector could have a bad effect.
Cheers,
Peter
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 08:50:00 PM by geep »
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waltergmw

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2010, 09:32:04 PM »

Hi Geep,

According to Kitz you should be syncing @ 9568 kbps. Perhaps an experiment with a 2Wire 2700 HGV @ about £20.00 would be worth a go ?

Kind regards,
Walter
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geep

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2010, 10:59:20 PM »

@Walter: 2700HGV @ £19.99 ebayed. Will start new thread (apologies for hijacking this topic) in a couple of days when installed. Cheers, Peter
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waltergmw

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2010, 11:14:41 PM »

Excellent news Geep !

However do proceed with caution !

http://bt2700hgv.tripod.com/ir1002700HGV.htm#The%20BT%20Empire%20Strikes%20Back

Do please ask if you are hesitant.

Kind regards,
Walter
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geep

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2010, 11:27:29 PM »

@Walter. Ta. Nearly bought one a while back. Have read/skimmed the bt2700hgv.tripod.com pages. ISP is ADSL24 - LLU Murphx/C&W.
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westom

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2010, 06:53:02 PM »

As I see the world, the purpose of the filter is to prevent DSL tones from disrupting telephone conversations.  

They also prevent the telephone from absorbing too much of the higher frequency DSL signals.
DSL is a radio wave (not tones) that travels on twisted pair wires.  Anything between a home and CO subverts that radio wave.  Nothing - especially not filters - must be in that connection.

  POTS devices - ie a telephone - will 'eat' DSL signals.  So a filter is installed between that DSL signal and each telephone appliance.  Filter blocks DSL signals so that the appliance cannot 'eat' DSL signal strength.

  Surges are a completely different anomaly.  Surges seek earth ground.  If that energy is permitted inside any building, then the surge will increase voltage as necessary to blow through - to get to earth.  Surge protection has been well understood for over 100 years.  If energy is connected to earth before the wire enters a building, then no surge damage.  It is that simple.

 Does BT disconnect phone service before every thunderstorm?  Of course not.  BT’s electronics are threatened by at least 100 surges with each storm.  How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace that computer?

  BT does what every informed consumer does.  Every wire inside every cable connects to earth ground before entering the building.  Cable TV does this less than 3 meter connection with only a wire – no protector required.  Telephone and AC electric will not work if earthed directly.  So a protector connects each wire to earth.

  That is what a protector does.  It does not magically make surge energy disappear as so many will claim.  It connects massive energy harmlessly to earth.  Or it makes appliance damage easier.  Your choice.

  BT wants protectors up to 50 meters separate from electronics.  That separation is critical to making better protection.  In your case, the protector is located at the master socket.  And that protector must connect ‘less than 3 meter’ to the same earthing electrode used by AC mains.  Yes, every wire must connect ‘less than 3 meters’ to single point earth ground.  These concepts have been used for over 100 years so that direct lightning strikes do not even harm the protector.

  No filter stops surges.  DSL filters are for keeping DSL signals away from all other phone appliances.  No filter stops surges.  Surges are energy that will block through any filter (ie the destroyed DSL filter).  Surge protection is always about where that energy dissipates.   Either you give energy a short path to earth – harmlessly outside the building.  Or that energy will hunt for earth destructively inside.  Filters and surge protectors are two completely different and well understood solutions. Routine is to use DSL computers during every thunderstorm without damage.
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roseway

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Re: Filters with ADSL2+
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2010, 07:04:33 PM »

Quote
DSL is a radio wave (not tones) that travels on twisted pair wires.

That's not correct. The DSL signal consists of numerous separate radio frequencies, usually referred to as tones. You can read a description of the system here.
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  Eric
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