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[Admacp]

I am currently with Tiscali as my Service Provider. I checked my router stats (Belkin F5D7632-4UK) which showed a line attenuation of 63.5 and a noise margin of 9 upstream and around 12.8 downstream. I've been reading your articles and tried the removal of the bell ringer wire and my noise margin immediately jumped up to between 17.8 - 18. I monitored it through the evening and during the night and the noise margin varied between 17.8(lowest) to 18.1(highest).
My question is - Tiscali have confirmed that I am on a fixed 1Mb service with them. As I have a reported fixed line speed of 512Kbps at the moment (confirmed with the router stats - 576up/288down line rate), if my noise margin remains consistent at this improved figure will my connection speed improve automatically or will I have to inform Tiscali of this improvement so that they notify BT to raise my IP Profile? I believe the max. speed will be around the 1Mb figure which isn't much of an improvement but every little helps when you are on 512k!
2nd question is - would I be better changing over to adsl max with this improved figure? The local exchange has no reported LLU providers.

[roseway]

Hi and welcome

It's pretty obvious that you're not on a fixed 1 Mbps service, you're on a fixed 512 kbps service, so Tiscali have got it wrong. From the figures you've reported, your line should easily support 1 Mbps, and might support more if you were to migrate to ADSL Max. Your attenuation of 63.5 indicates that you have a very long line, so my inclination would be to say that going over to Max would be a risk, so I wouldn't personally recommend it. You need to go back to Tiscali and make it clear that you are not on the 1 Mbps service which you are supposed to be on, based on the router stats which you reported above, and you want them to put you on the proper service.

(By the way, you got the router stats the wrong way round above - it should be 576 down, 288 up - so make sure you get it the right way round when talking to Tiscali.)

[kitz]

As roseway says the  576/288 indicates a fixed 512kb connection.  Fixed connections dont have IPprofiles as these only come with maxdsl.
If your SNRM is only varying around the 18dB mark, then you in theory have enought to spare for a fixed 1Mb.


However......  BTw are trying to phase out all the traditional fixed lines and encourage ISPs to move users over to Maxdsl by making these products cheaper for the ISP.  Maxdsl is rate adaptive and your line will always sync as best it can, which because your line is so long could cause a few problems.
However there is a little known solution (even some ISPs arent aware of this) for cases such as yours and thats to get your ISP to request BTwholesale to put you on something called ""BT IPStream Max - Capped Rate Profile 1000".

With your current stats you may be even able to cope with "BT IPStream Max - Capped Rate Profile 2000", but tbh that would be touch and go and you may not even get a sync at all.
It would be better in my opion to request "BT IPStream Max - Capped Rate Profile 1000"... then see how you go on that first.

[Admacp]

Thanks for responding so quickly and also for pointing out the back to front stats! The history behind my line troubles are that I used to be on a 2Mb service with Tiscali before I moved to my current house and transferred the account with me. The 2Mb service would not connect at all and they (Tiscali) arranged for a call out by a BT engineer. The Engineer did some line tests at the main BT socket only and confirmed that I should get at least a 1Mb connection. I didn't connect my router to the BT socket as it is fitted in our bedroom?? (seems a daft place to put it but as it was already there I didn't have any choice) and connected it at another socket in the living room.

After the BT Engineer left I assume that Tiscali/BT had some form of communication as I finally managed a connection within a day or two although it was very slow. At the time, I just wanted some sort of internet connection and accepted the 512kbps connection as that worked. I have tried Tiscali at least twice now to "upgrade" my line to the full 1Mb but each time they do a line check they say my line will not support it! I asked them if I should go on atheir adsl max package but (a rather rude!) woman told me I would be wasting my money as it would give me the same speed as I was currently achieving (512k). I recently enquired with them about upgrading to "try it" but they said I could only upgrade if I signed up for a further 12 month contract! I am keen to go onto someone's adsl max service (I currently have my MAC code) but am aware that I would be locked into a 12 month contract if it didn't work out.

Do you think that Tiscali set the 512k based on the original problem and tried the bare minimum connection speed and have just left cos it worked or is Tiscali's information based on BTw database figures for my line? I'm sure that a year or so ago when I tried the BT line checker it gave me a max. figure of 1Mb but now it says 512k and I'm just wondering if changes happen automatically on fixed line services as they appear to do on adsl max. Any further backgrounf info would be much appreciated.

[Ezzer]

the only question here is the actual attenuation. Assuming this is the typical testers maximum quoteable figure you may have an attenuation of more than 63.5 and if so how much more. Once into the mid-hi 60's then dsl max can become tetchy. If you end up with sync speeds of less than 1mb then chances are you may end up with an unreliable connection.

The improvement to the snr looks ok and is a good basis.

The only other thing; is thehigh attenuation due to a long line or do you have an rf2 lurking on your wiring before the nte

 http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm

If you have a small block terminal befor the nte it may be worth a look inside to see if an rf2 is there, if the cable is covering where it says rf2 the other indicator is the 2 cylindrical black coils. an rf 2 would add 42db to the attenuation. If so it needs to be replaced with an rf3 which has no detrimental effect on dsl signals

[Ezzer]

soz,didn't see your last post (distracted as struggling with a dodgy space bar). sounds as if the engineer ran an APtS test which gives the actual attenuation even if over 63.5db an also gives the max data rate even if its currently a fixed speed. Based on that he/she has given you the more accurate info in being able to support 1mb via max dsl.

Sounds as if your ISP is in "Computer sais no" syndrome.

Also I woulnd bother looking for an rf2 as to the engineer it would be obvious if you had a line lenght of up to 2.2km and yet such a high loss

[kitz]

>> Do you think that Tiscali set the 512k based on the original problem and tried the bare minimum connection speed and have just left cos it worked

Very probably..  and up until you removed the bell wire..  judging from the previous  SNR Margin this may have been all you were able to get at that point.

Make sure you tell your ISP that you have made some improvements to your internal wiring that now gives you a much increased SNR Margin which means you line can now support higher speeds.

>> Tiscali's information based on BTw database figures for my line
> I'm just wondering if changes happen automatically on fixed line services as they appear to do on adsl max.

No - the BT system wont know about the line improvements youve made ..  if youre already on a fixed rate 512kb it will very likely stay like that until you physically get upgraded because it will have been set by a visiting engineer.. so the only way it will now get upgraded is either by an engineer  saying so or if your line physically syncs stable for a period of time on max.

>> I am keen to go onto someone's adsl max service (I currently have my MAC code).

Perhaps try an ISP with a good support and one month contract such as Zen/newnet/fast etc
These are isps who are more likely to know about the Capped RAte Profile product and be prepared to try you on it.

[Admacp]

Thanks for all the help guys. This is an excellent "service" and all credit to the people willing to help others out. I'll try Tiscali one more time to see if they will change my account to the capped rate profile 1000 as suggested as I don't really want to lose my current email address at the moment. Failing that I'll try the others and let you know how I get on. It's only through the end user reporting conclusions that will give others having problems the courage to go (or not go) through the same channels to see if it will work for them I suppose.

[Ezzer]

When asking for a 1mb service make it very clear that your asking for dsl max (dsl rate adaptive is the other term) capped at 1mb and not the 1mb fixed speed. There is a difference.

essentialy there are 4 types of dsl service, the first 3 are fixed speeds: 0.5, 1, and 2 mb and then you have the rate adaptive/max which adjusts the speed as a variable to the best possible (less approx 0.5mb for reliability)

the fixed speed service has the advantage as it is more reliable as long as the line loss is within certain limits. those being <43db for a 2mb service, <60db for a 1mb service and >60db only 0.5mb (as you correctly summised your probably on a fixed 0.5mb as this is the surest way of getting a reliable connection with long lines)

The rate adaptive tries to adjust the speed to as fastas it can away with within reason based on the stat for the line and stability of connection. in some circumstanses its possible to get this capped as a means of keeping the adjustments within a stricter perameter and thus providing better reliabilty. this is what will suit you best with a >60db loss.

I was just thinking in case th person your speaking to at the ISP is interpreting your request as 1mb fixed speed. In which case they would dissmiss the request as out of limits. a capped rate adaptive is much more untypical so may not ring bells for the person your speaking to. 

[kitz]

>> a capped rate adaptive is much more untypical so may not ring bells for the person your speaking to.

Indeed that is my concern with Tiscali firstline support insisting that there is such a product available and its not a traditional fixed rate product.
The correct term which it needs to be ordered from BTWholesale is

"BT IPStream Max - Capped Rate Profile 1000"

one other thing just occurred and thats Tiscali still use datastream on some exchanges - if they mention to you that youre on datastream then the product you need is

"BT DataStream Max - Capped Rate Profile 1000"

Good luck 

[Admacp]

Thanks guys - things are a lot clearer now you have explained in more detail.

I contacted Tiscali billing dept. first to make my initial enquiry but the operator didn't know what I was talking about and tried to get me on their up to 8Mb Adsl Max service. When I mentioned the "BT IPStream Max - Capped Rate Profile 1000" she transferred me through to their Technical Dept.
Now, I have read loads of complaints about Call Centres and the likes and how the phone may be put down on you if you start asking too many "technical questions" and just laughed it off. I ain't laughing now because that is what they did to me!! I emailed a complaint to Tiscali and received a prompt reply that they are treating my case on an elevated basis - we'll see!
I'm not bashing Tiscali as to be honest I have been with them for at least 5yrs and never had any troubles with their service (other than the above).

I'll let you know how things progress. To date I have removed the ringer wire (along with other wires? connected into and out of the BT Master socket except for wires on number 2 & number 5) and hooked up the modem elsewhere in the house. Getting a solid noise margin of between 18.1 to 18.8 now.

Thanks

[jeffbb]

HI
This is a usefful email address
Richard.Lawrence@uk.tiscali.com>

see the link for more info near bottom of page
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=2839.15
Good luck 
Regards Jeff

[Admacp]

I finally changed onto adsl max and initially was quite pleased with my speed. Have been on a fixed speed of 512k and on first booting up with adsl max I was connecting with a line rate of 1920 and an Ip profile of 1500 which was giving me download speeds or around 1.48-1.49Kbps which was a revelation compared with before. Noise margin was ok at 6.0-7.1 and everything was going well for the first few days. I re-booted the modem on day 2 of my changeover and the line rate fell slightly to 1854 which luckily didn't affect my IP Profile.
However I received my BT Home hub today and tried it tonight - wish I hadn't! It showed a line rate of 1504 and immediately my IP Profile fell down to 1250. I've now plugged my old router back in (a Belkin 7632-4 uk8) and am back up to a line rate of 1856/384 but my IP Profile remains at 1250.

Do you think my IP Profile will improve back up to 1500 and if so how long will it likely take? There's no way I am going back to the home hub!!!

The home hub has a more accurate attenuation figure of 67.4 compared with my "fixed" 63.5 shown with the Belkin.

[orainsear]

Do you think my IP Profile will improve back up to 1500 and if so how long will it likely take? There's no way I am going back to the home hub!!!

If you remain synchronised and stable at 1856/384 kbps your IP profile should move to 1500.  It could take anything up to 3 days and sometimes a bit longer.  A bit more about IP profiles can be found @ http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm

[Admacp]

Got a question for you guys regarding adsl downstream connection rates.
My line has been completely stable for the last few weeks at 1856kbps downstream data rate with an IP Profile of 1500 which I thought was quite good for a line attenuation figure of 66.9. However I noticed a very slow internet speed a few days ago and noticed my downstream connection rate had dropped to 384 and a ping rate of 235 which was terrible. I connected my Home hub 2 router into the BT master socket and it connected back at 1856kbps. I then tried to see if there was any difference between my Home Hub 2 and my Belkin 7632 routers. Unfortunately, in doing this I did connect and re-connect several times and each time the connection speed seem to reduce. I noticed that the home hub gave an improved ping rate and an improved upload connection but was showing a slightly lower connection rate each time.
 I left the Home Hub router plugged in but switched off overnight as by the end of the evening my adsl connection was down to 576kbps. This morning when i restarted the router the connection rate was still at 576 so I left it switched on all day. I rebooted it tonight and the connection rate came back up to 1216kbps but my IP Profile is still at the reduced rate.

I have 2 questions. The first one is - does the connection rate change automatically at the exchange/router or can it only change by rebooting the router say once or twice a day over a few days? (I am  obviously keen to return to my original IP Profile which I know will improve in a day or so)The 2nd question is - how important in the overall "experience of speed" of the internet is the ping rate and upload connection. (the ping rate on the Belkin always reads 73 where the Home hub is 57. The upload connection rate for the Belkin is usually 384 where it was 448 on the Home Hub until it fell away to a current 416. My noise margin (down/up) used to hover around 5.8-6.0down/6.0-7.0up. It is currently sitting at 12.2down/6.0up. (Does the noise margin come down automatically first and that allows the connection rate to improve itself or is it the other way round?).
Line stats are as follows:

ADSL line status
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 02:33:31
Downstream 1,216 Kbps
Upstream 416 Kbps
 
 
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 12.3 dB / 6.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 66.9 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 2.0 dBm / 0.8 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 115 / 38
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 3 / 7
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 2 / 8
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 2 / 7