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Author Topic: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning  (Read 33404 times)

robinsteele

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2009, 04:07:20 PM »

Hi Tony,dont take my word for it,as I gave the nokia box to my uncle and ive not powered it up for 3 odd years.It would definately freeze all the time though and would need a forced reset.Ive not had a problem with that onn £16 chatty from asda.Ive even got it hooked up through my fancy sony pvr :)
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kitz

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2009, 07:08:42 PM »

Hmmm... this may well be why my media centre channels are now all Muxed up on the TV card  :mad:
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Floydoid

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2009, 07:09:28 PM »

I just wish I could even get the freeview channels. :(
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robinsteele

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2009, 11:27:51 PM »

How can you not get freeview
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jazz

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2009, 09:57:12 AM »

Plenty of areas where the signal is not strong enough for Freeview until after the analogue switch off when the digital signal will be boosted.  I believe one common indication is that if you can't get Channel 5 on analogue then the signal in your area won't be strong enough for Freeview.  In that case the only option (apart from waiting until switchover) is to try using Freeview on Freesat.
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roseway

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2009, 11:12:17 AM »

Quote
I believe one common indication is that if you can't get Channel 5 on analogue then the signal in your area won't be strong enough for Freeview.

No, I'm afraid there's no connection between the two things. Channel 5 was squeezed in by relaxing the rules about co-channel interference and so on, and there are several areas of the country where it simply wasn't possible to find a frequency for the 5th channel which wouldn't result in interference with other channels in the area. And there's no channel 5 in this part of the country (Kent) because of concerns about interference with French channels.

Freeview has different considerations. In order to avoid interference with analogue channels, the Freeview channels are transmitted at very low power (e.g. 2% of the analogue power). People living in weak signal areas may not be able to get good Freeview reception, simply because the the signal isn't strong enough. Digital TV is more robust than analogue, but it's not perfect of course. When analogue is switched off, the Freeview transmissions can have an increase in power which should make them receivable by everyone.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 01:43:09 PM by roseway »
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broadstairs

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2009, 01:28:15 PM »

The problem for us in Broadstairs is the proximity to the French and at the same time we switch off analogue they do as well and both up the power. If you check the official sites we dont get Freeview but because of where we are (quite high on a S facing slope we get our signal from Dover and we do get Freeview with a good signal strength at present anyway. Other places locally are not as lucky.

Strange thing about this problem is that when trying to re-order my box to get the BBC and ITV channels in the correct places I find that it seems to have found more than one copy of each, although this cannot be since we only get a signal from one UK transmitter, and the other IDTVs only find a single copy of each station. Also funnily enough I've found that this Freeview box does allow for the 2K or 8K transmission mode as well as different guard intervals but it cannot cope with the NIT changing!
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roseway

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2009, 01:48:00 PM »

>> I find that it seems to have found more than one copy of each

I've got a digital TV card in this PC, and it picks up several duplicates too. I think in my case, although I specify Dover as the source, I also pick up Bluebell Hill, and that's where the duplicates come from.
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robinsteele

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2009, 02:14:30 PM »

Plenty of areas where the signal is not strong enough for Freeview until after the analogue switch off when the digital signal will be boosted.  I believe one common indication is that if you can't get Channel 5 on analogue then the signal in your area won't be strong enough for Freeview.  In that case the only option (apart from waiting until switchover) is to try using Freeview on Freesat.

Ive not looked into freesat,but i believe you need a dish and box.I dont know how much that costs,but i would think sky lowest package would be much better,then when the years up,keep the stuff and use it as a freeview box.I think itv digital/freeview was aimed at people that werent allowed planning permission for a sky dish.
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Floydoid

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2009, 02:45:48 PM »

How can you not get freeview

Don't ask - long story.
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tonyappuk

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2009, 12:57:46 AM »

A further complication in the South if you receive your Digital TV from the Rowridge transmitter on the Isle of Wight, it was announced today (28th) that the channel frequencies will be changed in March and that the analogue Ch5 transmitter will cease transmission. This will require a rescan to find the new frequencies and get Ch5 back and may precipitate problems for old digiboxes as Broadstairs indicated when starting this thread. I have an old pvr with a hard drive recorder that looks set to expire unless I update the firmware or there is an over air download nearer the time. I'm still gathering information for a comprehensive summary of the situation as I promised earlier but this news has instilled more urgency into my search 'cos it will now affect me in 2 months not in 2012!
Tony
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tonyappuk

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2009, 07:23:28 PM »

The promised overdue summary! Sorry it's so long.

Recently one or two TV regions have had their analogue services shut down and the changeover to digital terrestrial TV (Freeview) has been made. In these areas some problems have cropped up due it seems to some set top box manufacturers not adhering strictly to the specification which they were given when DTT first started. Some of the manufacturers have said that the spec. was not specific enough but this argument will probably never be entirely resolved. From the viewers point of view in some cases their digital TV reception fails irreparably, in others it fails to receive some programmes but can be rescanned and in others a rescan removes all programmes. In the vast majority of cases TV reception continues apparently unaffected.

The main change to transmission that will affect all areas is the introduction of the Split Network Identification Table, the so-called Split NIT and this was introduced nationally last summer around July/August. It effectively enables the transmission of more channels although many have to be shared and allows more local programming than was possible originally. The NIT is used by the set top box to identify the channel and give it a name, BBC1 for instance, and also makes sure that the Electronic Program Guide or EPG displays the right information alongside its channel name. This becomes especially important if you have a digital video recorder (or PVR as they are often called) because the EPG allows you to select the programmes to be recorded at the click of the remote. And of course it would be most inconvenient if the EPG showed another channel’s programmes or times.

The effect of introducing the Split NIT varies depending on how the set top box interprets it and this in turn depends on the software/firmware being used to decode it. Some old boxes give up the ghost entirely and may not be revivable although many of the old OnDigital boxes are reported to handle it properly. Other set top boxes will report “New Channels Found” or something similar and suggest a rescan. Still others will rescan automatically and also report “New Channels” but require no action from the viewer but might have lost some channels.

The problem with rescanning is that until it is tried you don’t know if yours is one of the boxes affected adversely by the change to a Split NIT and nor how bad the problem is, and this is what Broadstairs was warning about in his initial posting. You would think that it would be a simple matter to publish a list of all affected models but, because of legal liability wrangles, that doesn’t seem to be likely to happen. (See the link to the Freeview UK site for some model numbers.) Some of the manufacturers that have had reported problems are Novapal, Daewoo, Labgear and Triax but only on some early manufactured models, but the affected models are rendered unusable by a rescan. Other manufacturers whose products may be affected include Access Devices, Sagem, Thomson and Panasonic but I’m lead to believe that over air downloads of upgraded software (OADs) will resolve their problems. This may not be possible after a rescan because the channel the update is being broadcast on may not be receivable after the rescan. Of course your initial action for any failed equipment is to return it to the seller under the Sale of Goods Act but most will require a receipt as proof of purchase and after a few years who can find receipts, but for recently bought equipment this is the way to go.

OADs are broadcast according to a schedule you can find at http://www.dtg.org.uk/retailer/download_schedule.pl but it only covers two weeks at a time and DTG (Digital Television Group) are dependent on the respective manufacturers as to the timing of each OAD availability. This means you have to keep checking. This is not really necessary in many cases because many set top boxes automatically search for OADs that are relevant and download and apply them. I have to resort to advising you to consult your particular user’s guide/handbook for details on updating. If you discover that DTG has scheduled an OAD for your model you can force a manual update. Once again the handbook will tell you how.

My own digital recorder is a Digihome PVR80 which I bought on Ebay but which was sold initially by Argos I believe. This make together with many others were made by the Turkish company, Vestel, and rebadged. Vestel manufactured (and still does manufacture) set top boxes and PVRs for many well know names and good quality kit they are too, but they do need the latest software loaded to handle the split NITs so I’m watching the DTG schedule carefully hoping for an OAD before 25th. March when I have to do a retune because Rowridge (my local transmitter) channels are being altered. The more modern PVRs sold by Argos are equipped with the latest software and should be fine but do read your handbook about OADs. It’s always better to have the latest software and it should all happen seamlessly if you follow the handbook instructions. This may mean leaving your recorder switched to standby overnight (not “OFF”) which allows it to power up when your not using it and do its thing if it finds an OAD. Many engineers and environmentalists will find that unacceptable but it may be easier than a forced update.

I do have a fallback position in that my recorder has a serial input socket and I have downloaded the latest software .bin file and in extremis I can update it locally but that’s more trouble than an OAD so I’m keeping my fingers crossed. I expect other PVRs have the same facility but the procedure may be different to the Digihome. PC cards for digital reception may be able to download software updates from the card manufacturer’s site.

Another change that will happen at Digital Switch Over in your area is the change to so called 8K from 2K modulation. Don’t ask what this means please! Just be grateful it is likely that all the boxes surviving up to DSO will almost certainly work with 8K if they have up to date software.

Some other links you may find helpful or interesting.
http://www.futaura.co.uk/vestel.html
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=29039388   Serial port update procedure
http://www.freeview.co.uk/
http://www.freeview.co.uk/freeview/Resolutions/About-Freeview-availability/Aerial-information/Transmission-changes-affecting-some-Freeview-digital-boxes
http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/when_do_i_switch/meridian/rowridge

As a last resort even if your prized integrated digital TV bought at some very high price at the outset of DTT turns out to be unupdateable (Is that a word?), you could purchase a set top box at a supermarket for £20 or less and connect it to your TV with a scart cable. If the TV is so old it doesn’t have a scart you can buy a box with a built in modulator that you can connect to your TV via the aerial as we did for video tape recorders. In our kitchen we have an old TV receiving DTT by this means although it will have to go when small integrated digital TVs become cheap enough. My wife isn’t keen though because you can’t store useful stuff on top of an LCD screen like you can a “proper” TV!

Tony
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broadstairs

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2009, 08:15:33 PM »

Thanks Tony for a very good overview and summary of the problems.....
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robinsteele

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2009, 02:38:18 PM »

I have noticed that the video plus on my pvr is not accurate.I thought that it beamed info to start and stop the recording but ive had a couple of films recorded and ive missed the last 2 minutes.Im gonna use the basic 10 minutes before,10 minutes after manual input recording method.
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HPsauce

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Re: A warning about Digital TV re-tuning
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2009, 03:24:28 PM »

I notice that regularly and it's almost always the programs that run early or late. In fact I think several channels deliberately "slide" the program timings to make you go to their online "catch-up" services.  Or to mess you up if you want to catch the start of something on another channel. >:D
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