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Author Topic: Slow and Intermittent Crackling  (Read 10199 times)

jid

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Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« on: November 28, 2008, 08:49:42 PM »

Hi All,

I have been greeted this evening with speeds of 445kbps and a crackly and intermittent phone line.

Would the crackling be the cause of the slow throughput as the SNR etc is all fine? The Attenuation is also varying between resyncs. Sync is 6560kbps...

I have checked filters and they are all good

Thanks

Jamie
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 08:52:39 PM by jid »
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Jamie

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kitz

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2008, 09:13:48 PM »

is that throughput speeds or sync speeds.  Im taking it you mean throughput.

If slow speeds are racking up due to a poor condition of your line, you  would expect to see lots of crc type errors....  but you would also expect your snrm to take a dip too.

Attenuation shouldnt change - or at least much - how much is the variation?
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jid

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2008, 11:29:25 PM »

The attenuation only dropped by 1db

There were no errors or snr issues at the time of the slowdowns and all seems back to normal now and the line is quiet as it normally is...

Could it be possible that there is another tiscali llu user on my exchange using up bandwidth in peak times?

Thanks

Jamie :)
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roseway

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2008, 07:46:00 AM »

It looks as though there are two different problems. Crackling on the phone is usually the result of a poor connection somewhere, either an intermittent line fault or something internal, and it's not unknown for this type of fault to have little effect on the ADSL downstream performance.

If the downstream noise margin and error rates didn't change, then the slowdown would seem to be something separate, maybe just the Tiscali overloaded pipes effect.
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jid

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2008, 08:33:58 AM »

It looks as though there are two different problems. Crackling on the phone is usually the result of a poor connection somewhere, either an intermittent line fault or something internal, and it's not unknown for this type of fault to have little effect on the ADSL downstream performance.

If the downstream noise margin and error rates didn't change, then the slowdown would seem to be something separate, maybe just the Tiscali overloaded pipes effect.


So the throughput slow down is unelated to the crackling, which now appears to have cleared :)

As I am on LLU, I thought there aren't pipes and they attain bandwidth differently?

It all seems ok this morning so will hope for the best tonight...
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kitz

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2008, 09:13:33 AM »

>> As I am on LLU, I thought there aren't pipes and they attain bandwidth differently?

Theres still 'pipes' from the backhaul at the exchange....  and these then join up at other locations to even bigger ones.

Tiscali backhaul doesnt work too much differently than BTw backhaul - the major difference is that the pipes are managed and paid for by tiscali, rather than renting them off BTw.  They still go through an ATM backhaul from the exchange, and will join up with a larger town/city, where they are fatter pipes, which will then go on to Tiscali's main PoP.

An LLU backhaul link can use VPs (such as Easynet are assumed to do to separate Sky and UKO), or they can use 'super VPs' like BTw now do for most adslmax MSANs.

Theres a pic from Inside the exchange which gives a bit more info

but on this you can see the orange fibre back haul links.  The LLU ones are at the top - the BTw ones on the bottom shelf




BTw backhaul links are normally 155Mbps for most exchanges..  but the sizes can vary depending on the exchange size  and many exchanges may have multiple 155Mbps links.
For LLU its up to the ISP to decide how much they use for eg Be are said to use 100Mbps and increment in 100Mbps stages.
You can still get congestion on LLU both on the exchange backhaul or even on the link from the larger town/city exchange PoP if enough bandwidth isnt provisioned.

An interesting observation, that isnt too clear in that smaller pic, but is obvious in the full size is that on that particular exchange both the AOL and TT MSANs both join at that point onto the same backhaul link.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 09:23:18 AM by kitz »
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jid

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2008, 02:18:44 PM »

Thanks to both for the replies.

Thanks Kitz for the explanation on LLU backhauls, very helpful indeed.

Before I report this to Tiscali, (I know you will not like me for this) could you take a look at my stats to make sure it is not those causing the issues?

Quote
Uptime: 5hours

Mode :     G.DMT
Type:    Interleave
Line Coding :    Trellis On
Status :    Link Up 
 
     Downstream    Upstream
Rate (Kbps) :    6560     448
SNR Margin (dB) :    12.1     26.0
Attenuation (dB) :    30.0     15.0
Output Power (dBm) :    19.8     12.3
K (number of bytes in DMT frame) :    206     15
R (number of check bytes in RS code word) :    8     8
S (RS code word size in DMT frame) :    1     8
D (interleaver depth) :    32     2
Delay (msec) :    8     4
Super Frames :    1182241     1182192
Super Frame Errors :    0     0
RS Words :    80392418     10048632
RS Correctable Errors :    454442     0
RS Uncorrectable Errors :    0     N/A
HEC Errors :    0     0
OCD Errors :    0     0
LCD Errors :    0     0
Total Cells :    310952216     0 
Data Cells :    1250673      0
Bit Errors :    0     0
Total ES :    0     0
Total SES :    0     0
Total UAS :    94     0



Cheers

Jamie
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roseway

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 03:05:10 PM »

There's nothing in those stats which would account for the big slowdown which you mentioned.
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jid

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 03:12:22 PM »

There's nothing in those stats which would account for the big slowdown which you mentioned.


Ok

Thank you Roseway  :)
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jid

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2008, 09:31:54 PM »

Well all seems to be back to norm after both CardiffEmpire and Kenfig Hill Tiscali LLU being reported as having slow speeds on Tiscali's Status page.

I came to the conclusion that the issues were being caused by these Slow Speeds, Kenfig Hill, being near to myself.

Anyways, I am seeing overall improvement in my connection and did have a 4day uptime yesterday until I had these issues.

One thing that I am a little worried is my Attenuation figure, it has changed to 29dB tonight... Is it normal for it to fluctuate? My sync is 6592kbps with 12.7dB snr so I am happy with that.

It seems the noise wasn't around at the usual time of 7pm this evening, so perhaps the neighbours old fridge was an issue as they are having a new kitchen and the fridge was replaced today...

Thanks to both for the advice

Jamie
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kitz

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2008, 09:41:20 PM »

Attenuation should remain pretty static - but 1dB or so would be considered normal. 
It depends on the way in which the router measures the attenuation across all of the frequency bins in use.
Some routers measure it based on 300kHz, whilst some will measure it across all the frequency bins.  Higher frequencies are more variable to fluctuations, therefore if your router measures on all bins, then it can change very slightly depending upon which bins are in use.

It can also change by 1dB due to rounding, so I wouldnt put too much importance on it.
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jid

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2008, 05:25:11 PM »

Would high pings relate to congestion?
http://www.speedtest.net/result/364756083.png
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kitz

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 07:39:58 PM »

Possibly - depends on the ISP and where the congestion is occurring.

You're far better doing a tracert to somewhere like jolt.co.uk to test for latency issues as it breaks down the hops, so you can see whats happening where.

eg

Code: [Select]
Tracing route to jolt.co.uk [82.133.85.65]over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    95 ms    99 ms    99 ms  192.168.1.254
  2     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  3     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  4    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  te1-3.cr05.tn5.bb.gxn.net [195.66.224.29]
  5    36 ms    19 ms    22 ms  gi1-1-6.ar01.tn5.bb.gxn.net [62.72.140.142]
  6    15 ms    15 ms    15 ms  ge-0-0-0-3801.jolt-gw.cust.pipex.net [212.241.241.14]
  7    15 ms    15 ms    14 ms  secure.jolt.co.uk [82.133.85.65]

Trace complete.


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jid

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2008, 07:58:51 PM »

Code: [Select]
Tracing route to kitz.co.uk [91.198.165.131]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    37 ms    31 ms    28 ms  lo98.gr-acc-bras-1.as9105.net [212.74.102.17]
  3    27 ms    27 ms    27 ms  10.72.4.99
  4    26 ms    27 ms    31 ms  10.72.9.219
  5    28 ms    28 ms    28 ms  xe-1-1-0-0.lon20.ip.tiscali.net [213.200.78.233]

  6    27 ms    26 ms    28 ms  blueconnex-gw.ip.tiscali.net [77.67.64.190]
  7    30 ms    28 ms    29 ms  br1.core.misp.co.uk [91.198.165.4]
  8    30 ms    29 ms    29 ms  ge-1-377.captain.core.misp.co.uk [91.198.165.5]

  9    28 ms    28 ms    29 ms  thermalnine.footholds.net [91.198.165.131]

Trace complete.

What am I looking for in that exactly?
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kitz

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Re: Slow and Intermittent Crackling
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2008, 08:07:52 PM »

Each hop should show a nice progression through the stages.

If your line is interleaved - then those times are not too bad.

Hop 2 is a little busy (see the slight increase in time), but thats perfectly fine because its not actually affecting any thing further down (notice how it goes back to 27ms by hop 6).  It just means its giving priority to traffic rather than ICMP pings.

Sometimes some routers wont respond at all (such as Be's in hop 2+3 in mine).

What is bad is if you see something like this which would show hop 3 has a problem

15ms
16ms
120 ms
121 ms
121 ms

or the figures jump all over the place.

However its not quite that straight forward, and learning to read tracerts can take a little getting used to and knowing if you are going outside the UK, when times will increase.  The more tracerts you see, the easier it becomes to spot something weird.

Just like reading line stats in a way, in that over time you get to know what youre looking for... but its much easier with a tracert :)
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